Quebec Separation rekindled. Thanks to Liberals.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

The Quebec Thing

So, long string of posts over at Alex's joint, on the occasion of our newly minted Journée des Patriotes, formerly Mrs. Fête de Dollard, née Victoria Day.

First off, I respect Alex's point of view - he's one of the best writers and thinkers I know. He raises some interesting examples of Quebec successes in response to one commenter in particular, former sovereignist-turned-federalist, David, who in turn has raised tough questions that, in my mind, neither Alex nor his supportive commenters have really answered yet - unfortunately things seemed to have degraded into a flamewar.

So here's my thoughts. I know this is going to be a bit scattershot and more than a little Socratic, but here's my take on some of the points Alex raised. I know some of them were intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but there's always a grain of truth in a joke. In truth, I do agree with some of them - and that's the topic of another future post.

It's easy to adopt reflexive positions based on your background, upbringing, schooling, or political affiliation, that risk becoming inflexible lines in the sand. It's sad, because rhetoric like this rupture friendships and community. Neither position really seems to want to examine the other's ideas openly, because of years of distrust / disappointment / resentment, etc.

I understand something of what Alex says when he claims not to have an attachment to the rest of Canada, of which more below. But in a perverse mirror of that, I have that kind of relationship with franco-Quebec culture, and it's not something I'm proud of.

Alex said:
Je ne me retrouve pas dans la culture canadienne, ou si peu. Je ne m'associe pas aux Canadiens. Je n'ai à peu près aucune idée de ce qu'ils mangent, ce qu'ils écoutent, ce qu'ils aiment. Sont-ils heureux avec leurs choix? Comment entrevoient-ils leur avenir? Je ne le sais pas mais je sais une chose: je les trouve trop loin de ma réalité quotidienne à moi. Ils sont en général plus à droite et moi je suis plus à gauche. Voilà. Comment aimer un pays dans lequel je me reconnais pas?

- the rest of the entry

[Doc Holliday]

...well since this thread won't die...



"...To truly reject something, you first have to have made the honest effort to embrace it, understand it, live it, be it, and still find it lacking..."


There is, all over that piece, a rampant insidious sous-entendu that if you're a sovereignist than you're either dishonest or haven't traveled enough to have a valid point of view. It's plain snob. Canada was not born yesterday and to claim that Quebec has not given the Canada venture plenty of time to define a working model for everybody is plain silly. Quebec had to break free from a semi state of slavery with its own tools and will. It is very different from all other provinces because it had to battle for its identity and rights within Canada, an identity that this guy would like for us to sweep under the rug in an "honest effort" to revert back to being assimilated, silenced, and abused. I truly reject that, thank you very much.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

docholliday said:

...well since this thread won't die...

[PTH]

docholliday said:

...well since this thread won't die...

I gotta say I'm disappointed in seeing this blog linked to, I think it's just not that good. It makes several points that are really just short-sighted opinion and not a solid overall view of things.

I've seen much more compelling reasons for keeping Quebec in Canada by several posters on here. A short-sighted anglo who barely leaves the Island (and I'd guess is roughly my age - late 20's) doesn't carry much weight in my eyes.

Do Quebecers really have such a lack of curiosity about their neighbors? The current generation seem pretty well-travelled and Internet-savvy, but I wonder if years of Quebec-centric educational materials (some of which I got in my immersion program) and an almost completely inward-looking mediasphere haven't sort of created a kind of Truman Show bubble effect as regards Canada. "Oh, you can go outside the dome, but you won't like it."

Hasn't it crossed that the fact that the two nations can operate in such bubbles is the root cause of the whole issue ? This isn't a case of nations with a lot in common not talking, it's a case of different nations just not having all that much to talk about.

This is the great secret. We're really not that different, individually...........BC is not like Alberta is not like Saskatchewan is not like Manitoba, anymore than Switzerland is like Italy, France or Germany - sure, they might speak the same languages to each other, but they are really different countries. Just as a nationalist Quebecer might take umbrage at being called a Canadian while abroad, so too does anyone from any Canadian province resent the loss of identity when lumped into an imaginary beast called "the Roc.".

Duh. Societies aren't defined by individuals, but by society as a whole. And in every single statistical analysis of the country, Quebec is the outlier, the number that doesn't fit in with the rest. The blogger is going back to the old dialogue:
-Quebec says: we need some unique provisions to protect our identity
-R.O.C says (in plenty of different voices): Everyone's unique, so no special anything for anyone.

Uh? What rejection of Québec? The sponsorship scandal has brought down faith in the Liberal party machine, and I suspect there would have been the same outrage if it had originated in any other province.

Many of the polls have shown that a lot of people from the ROC think that scandals and corruption are just "normal" in Quebec. Interestingly, no one is asking the real question - why was the federal government trying to buy it's way into the hearts and minds of Quebecers? Why not simply govern properly and show us that Canada works? Of course, the Liberals made that nearly impossible after their complete opposition to Meech Lake and any similar kind of deal.

On the subject of Quebec cheeses: So if there's a dumb governmental policy about exporting raw-milk cheese, do you change the law, or change the country?

Every society has a dumb rule on the books that comes from some incident in the past.

Again, the blogger doesn't get that the reason the policy was irritating wasn't that it was some kind of relic (we all know plenty about stupid policies) but rather that it was being put in place at the Federal level by a bunch of R.O.Cers who never even wondered if culturally cheesemaking might be different in Quebec. Even though "we all like the same cereals" there are a lot of points where we aren't all the same (except in another language).

What I do know about the dairy industry in Quebec and Canada is that without substantial subsidies by the Canadian government to dairy producers (under the guise of provincial transfer payments), Quebec milk, cheese and yogurt would not be as competitive in the world market.

Of course, Quebec pays federal taxes, and as a sovereign country could just take that money (that would be going to Quebec City rather than Ottawa) and subsidize the industry itself.

On the issue of school costs -- well, sure, they're the lowest, but at a certain point, you get what you pay for. Every time a school begs for more money to keep the lights on, students march in force and we get another tuition freeze. It's a political hot potato, but eventually the students get burned........
And if we want to do it without transfer payments from Ottawa...good luck.

Again, we could get our share of the education money from our own taxes. As to choosing to have lower school costs, that's a decision made in Quebec for Quebecers - we might like Cheerios just like the ROC, but to us having accessible schooling for all is more important than it is elsewhere. The blogger makes a good point comparing with US Ivy League schools. They're the typical reference of excellence for the ROC, but Quebec's chosen a different way to organise its society.

I come by this unease from a lifetime living under laws that discriminate based on what you speak at home, having your language be second-class, to be taken off the sign, half-sized, assimilated in school in some sort of reverse-Durham Report fashion.

I'm insulted at seeing the Durham report mis-represented in this way. Durham was out to actively assimilate. Bill 101 as it stands now is meant to let the anglo community survive as is but to have allophone immigrants integrate with the Quebec majority, ie, francophones. Nothing Durham-esque here.

From my point of view, the battle is over - ever since I can remember, Francophone Quebecers have been at the reins of power,

Well, the world can change awfully fast. My grandfather had to do all his business in English even though he was a francophone from the country. The signs in the streets in 1955 were just about all in English, and take out Bill 178 and we'd get back there pretty fast in some parts of the West Island.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

pth said:

docholliday said:

...well since this thread won't die...

I gotta say I'm disappointed in seeing this blog linked to, I think it's just not that good. It makes several points that are really just short-sighted opinion and not a solid overall view of things.

I've seen much more compelling reasons for keeping Quebec in Canada by several posters on here. A short-sighted anglo who barely leaves the Island (and I'd guess is roughly my age - late 20's) doesn't carry much weight in my eyes.

So disappointed that you posted a comment to his entry in his blog, thus leaving yourself open to the possibility of a dialogue with him. Go get 'em, tiger!

[PTH]

mrbozo said:

pth said:

So disappointed that you posted a comment to his entry in his blog, thus leaving yourself open to the possibility of a dialogue with him. Go get 'em, tiger!

Somehow I got the impression that it's a she.....

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

pth said:

mrbozo said:

pth said:

So disappointed that you posted a comment to his entry in his blog, thus leaving yourself open to the possibility of a dialogue with him. Go get 'em, tiger!

Somehow I got the impression that it's a she.....

No, AJ Kandy is a guy. We've corresponded about work—he's in Web development—and he has traveled extensively, at least throughout North America.

I posted the link because his attitude seems to me to be typical of many people that I have met. And Alex Lauzon's attitude seems to be fairly typical as well.

[Cranky]

Go get em PTH. Give him a smack down and all of Canada will be right behind you. Oh wait, that came out wrong........