This is crazy...and getting crazier by the day...

[cigarviper]

news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20080731%2fManitoba_bus_080731

Passenger interview will make your skin crawl.

[jkr]

I heard about it this morning & could not believe it. It's something straight out of a horror movie.

There was a similar incident in Brampton, Ontario several months ago.

A women was stabbed by a complete stranger in a busy mall parking lot during lunch hour, When her husband came to her defense he was also stabbed to death. The assailant tried to turn the knife on himself but was subdued by police.

I know these are rare incidents but when they occur at "safe" times & places it can make your world seem like a very frightening place.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

I read about it this morning as well. Sounds like the guy was a bonafide sociopath if I understand that term. I read that sociopaths are only sorry when the noose is around their necks. If they're allowed to walk away even after being freed, they'll do it again.

I've never been an advocate of capital punishment, but it's hard for me not to think about it at a time like this. There are times where I think it would apply

... like now.

[Cranky]

Crazy, just plain crazy. We need to the death sentence to deal with animals like this and Bernardo.

[jkr]

Jul 31, 2008 19:10:58 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

I
I've never been an advocate of capital punishment, but it's hard for me not to think about it at a time like this. There are times where I think it would apply

... like now.

My feelings exactly - not a proponent of capital punishment but there are times.

[Andrew]

I feel the same way. In a case like this he shouldn't leave the scene still alive.

[halihab]

Jul 31, 2008 21:14:44 GMT -5 Andrew said:

I feel the same way. In a case like this he shouldn't leave the scene still alive.

Exactly, he should have been shot on the spot. I don't care how sick he is, he should not exist on this earth. Can you imagine the waste of tax payers money he is now going to cost. DISGUSTING.

[Deleted]

My question is: how did they let the man on that bus with that size of a knife?

[Roggy]

I can't imagine he showed his knife to anyone while getting on the bus, and I've never been searched or gone through a metal detector to get on a Greyhound.

With the number of small stations and people getting on and off, there are few if any security measures.

[BadCompany]

Its an easy-enough case for death penalty advocates to throw out there in support of capital punishment, and I must admit I waffle on the subject, but the Paul Bernardo case brings up an interesting dilemna. Bernardo, most would agree, is a perfect example of somebody who should get the noose in a country that practices the death penalty.

But...

If Paul Bernardo had of been executed, would Anthony Hanemaayer ever have been exonerated? How many more victims can Bernardo lay claim to, and more importantly, how many other men are in jail because of his crimes? Same with this case. Maybe this was this maniac's first and only kill, but what if it wasn't? Do we want to take the chance that innocent men will do time because he's been silenced forever?

I'm not saying we give him the kiddie-glove treatment (the way Clifford Olsen is allowed to manipulate the system sickens me), but the Bernardo treatment seems good to me; solitary confinement in a small cell, only allowed to come out when he wants to confess something privately, with no media. I suspect, however, that the "insanity" defense has already been prepared and this psycho is going to end up spending the rest of his days sitting in a cushy recliner, watching the Price is Right, hopped up on a sedative or twelve.

Remarkably restraint showed by those poor RCMP officers that had to "negotiate" with him though. Imagine trying to talk this guy off the bus, while the mutilated body lies nearby? How they just didn't shoot him on general principle is beyond me. "Oh, I thought he was making a move toward me..." Nobody would have blinked an eye...

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Well, it's a hot topic this morning here at work.

BC, I think there are lawyers drooling over this as some sort of professional opportunity to test the insanity thing. I feel the cases of Anthony Hanemaayer and this sociopath are different. I don't know the whole Hanemaayer story, but from what I found (Google) was that he was advised to plead guilty by his lawyer because he'd get a reduced sentence.

(I suspect there's a lot more to the story and if you want to, please feel free to tell me in your own words. I just don't have the time right now to research it)

But, if this is so and Hanemaayer pled guilty so he didn't have to do excessive time, and that being the sole reason, then IMO he rolled the dice and lost when he could have chosen other option like, I don't know, choosing another lawyer.

In this case, I feel it's important to find out what made this primate do what he did then remove him from the planet.

I'm with you in that some people will be wrongly convicted and handed an execution as a sentence. But, this one doesn't appear to be close. I think this sub-ape will probably receive everything our legal system is permitted to give him even though it looks like an open-and-shut case.

But, look at who we have in our system now. Olsen and Bernardo? Are you kidding me? I've talked to some corrections officers about these guys. Wish I could tell you more ...

Cheers.

[BadCompany]

Hey Dis,

I wasn't so much implying that some innocent people will be executed (though that is certainly a possibility), but that by executing somebody like this monster we remove any chance we may have of not only learning what makes him and his ilk tick, but of possibly exonerating people who may been incorrectly accused and/or convicted of crimes this psycho commited.

As for Hanemaayer, I don't know the exact circumstances of why he plead guilty, but given that he was 19 years old at the time, uneducated and working as a laborer, I'm going to guess he didn't have a lot of money or options to work his way through lawyers. Plus, the case seemed to be open and shut; he fit the description and was identified by two witnesses. His lawyer probably said "you may be innocent, but you ain't going to be able to prove that in court."

There is a good story about a guy in Florida who lent his car to some friends, who subsequently murdered a young girl. The man, 25 year old Ryan Holle, who had no previous criminal record, claims that he thought his friends were going out to get some food. He was not there when the murder took place, but his car was. "No car, no murder" is how the prosecutor put it. Anyways, the prosecution offered Holle a plea bargain deal, 10 years. Holle rejected it, believing himself to be innocent, and is currently serving life in prison, with no chance of parole.

Serving Life for Providing Car to Killers

Now, whatever you may think of Holle's particular circumstances, in a round-about way its connected to this psycho on the bus. Honest, it is. Bear with me... Holle took a chance, and rejected a plea bargain. Backfired big time on him. Hanemaayer, on the advice of his lawyer who undoubtedly trotted out a dozen examples for Hanemaayer to think about, of people who rejected plea bargains and who ended up with much longer prison sentences, decided against taking that chance and did jail time. Now IF Bernardo had of been executed, Hanemaayer would go to his grave with everyone thinking he was a rapist. Similarily, IF this bus monster is executed, there is the possibility that unsolved crimes commited by him will never be solved, or worse, that some innocent people will continue to live their lives branded as criminals.

Again, I am not suggesting a country-club resort and a million dollar book deal for this guy. But I'd really want to be sure we aren't missing out on something when we take this guy off the planet.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Aug 1, 2008 8:40:15 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

Hey Dis,

I wasn't so much implying that some innocent people will be executed (though that is certainly a possibility), ...

I know, mate. I referring to a few of us participating in a similar discussion a while ago.

but that by executing somebody like this monster we remove any chance we may have of not only learning what makes him and his ilk tick, but of possibly exonerating people who may been incorrectly accused and/or convicted of crimes this psycho commited.

Right on. This is what I mean when I said,

Aug 1, 2008 8:12:30 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

In this case, I feel it's important to find out what made this primate do what he did then remove him from the planet.

But I'd really want to be sure we aren't missing out on something when we take this guy off the planet.

A good example of what we're talking about here could be the way China handles it's extreme cases. Their first instinct, literally 'instinct' it seems, is to shoot the convicted bastards in the head. It's unfortunate, because they lose so much opportunity elsewhere; one being, 'what makes 'em tick.'

As for Hanemaayer, I don't know the exact circumstances of why he plead guilty, but given that he was 19 years old at the time, uneducated and working as a laborer, I'm going to guess he didn't have a lot of money or options to work his way through lawyers. Plus, the case seemed to be open and shut; he fit the description and was identified by two witnesses. His lawyer probably said "you may be innocent, but you ain't going to be able to prove that in court."

This rundown disturbs me. It's hard to know if stories like Hanemaayer's are the result of poor parenting or just a young guy who comes from a broken background and hasn't had the time to grow up (Aileen Wuornos comes to mind). That said, as parents we can't over-value the importance of keeping our kids educated and pointing down the right path.

However, I was watching a documentary on offenders who were incarcerated at an early age and were left in prison until their late-20's/early-30's. They all had something in common to say:

"... I was the quiet kid sitting at the back of the classroom who didn't say a word."

"... I was never good in crowds."

"... it seemed everyone else was getting attention." (bingo-bango!!)

There is a good story about a guy in Florida who lent his car to some friends, who subsequently murdered a young girl. The man, 25 year old Ryan Holle, who had no previous criminal record, claims that he thought his friends were going out to get some food. He was not there when the murder took place, but his car was. "No car, no murder" is how the prosecutor put it. Anyways, the prosecution offered Holle a plea bargain deal, 10 years. Holle rejected it, believing himself to be innocent, and is currently serving life in prison, with no chance of parole.

Serving Life for Providing Car to Killers

Now, whatever you may think of Holle's particular circumstances, in a round-about way its connected to this psycho on the bus. Honest, it is. Bear with me... Holle took a chance, and rejected a plea bargain. Backfired big time on him. Hanemaayer, on the advice of his lawyer who undoubtedly trotted out a dozen examples for Hanemaayer to think about, of people who rejected plea bargains and who ended up with much longer prison sentences, decided against taking that chance and did jail time. Now IF Bernardo had of been executed, Hanemaayer would go to his grave with everyone thinking he was a rapist. Similarily, IF this bus monster is executed, there is the possibility that unsolved crimes commited by him will never be solved, or worse, that some innocent people will continue to live their lives branded as criminals.

I learned in Grade 11 Canadian Law class that, you can lend your car out all you want but you're ultimately responsible for any damage your car causes ... not your friends. Never forgot that.

As far as this 'something-gone-wrong' person is concerned, again I agree with you in that we should find out what it was that caused him to do what he did. However, if I remember reading it right, Timothy McVie, still showed absolutely no remorse for his crime even when the drugs entered his body. Apparently he just glared as he expired.

Might be the same kind of remorseless primate here. Should find out his background soon enough. Ever hear of the the Don Quixote Syndrome?

Doesn't excuse a thing though. I agree, yes, let's find out what caused this ... but he and his species need to go. The Don Quixote Syndrome (if this is what it truely is) shouldn't be an excuse for accountability.

Cheers.

[CentreHice]

I fully expect it to be the same as the stabbing in the Brampton parking lot....a mentally-ill patient off his meds. Schizophrenia is one scary disease, and can manifest itself in various ways when not treated. He could have been told by "voices" that the young man was Satan and that he must be done away with.

Time bombs just waiting to go off in our society. Scary.

If this was indeed the case, it would have happened literally anywhere...as he certainly didn't care if anyone was around. Even sociopathic murderers/serial killers seem to not want to get caught.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Religous extremism seems to be everywhere. IMO, there's no difference between this Phelps guy and some of these extremist mullahs. Inexcusable behaviour.

Church group to protest funeral

By ROB NAY

The Winnipeg Sun

A fundamentalist church group from the U.S. has announced it plans to picket the funeral of Tim McLean Jr. in Winnipeg, declaring, "God is punishing Canada."

"People are absolutely outraged about it," said Doug Mitchell, a friend of McLean's for about seven years.

Led by pastor Fred Phelps, the Westboro Baptist Church from Kansas issued a release saying they would picket McLean's funeral this weekend.

Phelps' daughter, Shirley Phelps-Roper, said about seven church members are expected to come to Winnipeg. "What we're doing is trying to connect dots," Phelps-Roper told the Winnipeg Sun last night. "We're trying to get you to see that your rebellion against the standards of God, your disobedience to the commandments -- your idols, your false gods, your filthy ways have brought wrath upon your head."

The group has held pickets and protested on issues throughout Canada and the U.S., commonly with only a small handful of people in attendance.

In 1999, the group burned a Canadian flag and protested in Ottawa following the Supreme Court ruling which ordered Ontario to include same-sex couples in the definition of spouse.

The church has also developed a reputation for not always following through on protests. "If it's not a hoax, then they're morally deranged," said Arthur Schafer, director of the University of Manitoba's Centre for Professional and Applied Ethics.

Mitchell said he and other friends are disturbed by the church's plans. He said he hopes members of the church don't attend the funeral for his friend who was murdered and decapitated aboard a Greyhound bus last week.

"When it comes to the (Westboro) Baptist Church, they don't even deserve to be on the same page as Tim McLean. He was too great a guy," said Mitchell.

cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/08/07/6373931-sun.html

[The New Guy]

Aug 7, 2008 11:50:52 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Religous extremism seems to be everywhere. IMO, there's no difference between this Phelps guy and some of these extremist mullahs. Inexcusable behaviour.

Not to go completely off-topic, but there's a huge difference Dis. Comparing the Westboro Nutters to the Extremist, Blow-Up-the-Infidel Mullahs is not fair. The key difference is in their actions. The Westboro Bapist Church, for all their (many) failings, are just practicing their right to freedom of speech. They don't go around killing people, they don't actively advocate violence as a solution. They don't entreat their followers to blow themselves and others up as a key to getting into heaven. They just talk. Yes, they condemn those of us who disagree with their morals. Yes, they judge us for our disagreement with their beliefs. But one of the things I believe in is freedom of speech. Even when it hurts. And the minute we start condemning people for their beliefs, and for exercising their right to free speech, we become no better than them. As far as I'm concerned, unless they're planning on physically attacking people or advocating other physically attack people, then they have a right to be there.

That said, this gives the new PETA ad campaign based on the tragedy a run for the most tasteless thing I have heard today. I wonder, sometimes, who do these groups think they're fooling? Is anyone at that funeral going to up and say "Hey, you're right. The moral decay of our society is the reason why this child is dead"? Is anyone watching it going to think "Hmm, these people are the kind of a******* that God needs to spread his word - I should join them"? I suppose someone must fall in line with their beliefs, but I imagine (prefer to think, perhaps) that only people who already have fundamentally flawed views of the world could see the logic in these actions.

[MC Habber]

I have to say I'm a bit shocked by the talk of the death penalty. This is obviously a severely ill man who, IMO, does not deserve to die. Regardless of the cost to give him treatment, if you believe that it isn't society's right to decide who lives and who dies, I don't see why you would feel differently in this case. It's my understanding that if he were tried in the US, he would most likely be found not criminally responsible for his actions and would not get the death penalty.

Personally, my view is similar to jkr's - "not a proponent of capital punishment but there are times" - but I really don't see this as one of those times. Based on what I've read so far, this was a fairly normal guy who just snapped, for whatever reason. I don't think anyone can really be completely certain it couldn't happen to them.

[clear observer]

Aug 7, 2008 13:23:17 GMT -5 MC Habber said:

I have to say I'm a bit shocked by the talk of the death penalty. This is obviously a severely ill man who, IMO, does not deserve to die. Regardless of the cost to give him treatment, if you believe that it isn't society's right to decide who lives and who dies, I don't see why you would feel differently in this case. It's my understanding that if he were tried in the US, he would most likely be found not criminally responsible for his actions and would not get the death penalty.

Personally, my view is similar to jkr's - "not a proponent of capital punishment but there are times" - but I really don't see this as one of those times. Based on what I've read so far, this was a fairly normal guy who just snapped, for whatever reason. I don't think anyone can really be completely certain it couldn't happen to them.

Odd, I agree with your views regarding capital punishment (and always have my entire adult life) yet if I'm on the bus at the very moment this sick bastard begins to drive his knife into this boy's chest and I happen to have a loaded .45, I'd empty every round into his skull WITHOUT hesitation.

Indeed, there are times.

[MC Habber]

Aug 7, 2008 13:48:20 GMT -5 clear observer said:

Aug 7, 2008 13:23:17 GMT -5 MC Habber said:

I have to say I'm a bit shocked by the talk of the death penalty. This is obviously a severely ill man who, IMO, does not deserve to die. Regardless of the cost to give him treatment, if you believe that it isn't society's right to decide who lives and who dies, I don't see why you would feel differently in this case. It's my understanding that if he were tried in the US, he would most likely be found not criminally responsible for his actions and would not get the death penalty.

Personally, my view is similar to jkr's - "not a proponent of capital punishment but there are times" - but I really don't see this as one of those times. Based on what I've read so far, this was a fairly normal guy who just snapped, for whatever reason. I don't think anyone can really be completely certain it couldn't happen to them.

Odd, I agree with your views regarding capital punishment (and always have my entire adult life) yet if I'm on the bus at the very moment this sick bastard begins to drive his knife into this boy's chest and I happen to have a loaded .45, I'd empty every round into his skull WITHOUT hesitation.

That's quite different than a court sentencing him to death after the fact.

[Skilly]

Aug 7, 2008 12:25:59 GMT -5 The New Guy said:

As far as I'm concerned, unless they're planning on physically attacking people or advocating other physically attack people, then they have a right to be there.

I agree with your opinion on freedom of speech ... it is one of the many things we hold dear. But another thing I hold dear is what our fore-fathers did to give us those rights. Many people died fighting for our freedom of speech under the Canadian and British flags. IMO, burning any symbol of our nation (flag, money, etc), which are all crimes I might add - not very Christian of them, is tantamount to advocating people attack. I know I'd have to be restrained if I saw them burning the flag .... if that isn't inciting violence in some form, I dont know what is.

Remember how this nation reacted after the rumour swirled that the US Women's hockey team walked on our flag in the dressing room? How these people werent arrested for burning our flag on our soil is beyond me.

[CentreHice]

Aug 7, 2008 13:48:20 GMT -5 clear observer said:

yet if I'm on the bus at the very moment this sick bastard begins to drive his knife into this boy's chest and I happen to have a loaded .45, I'd empty every round into his skull WITHOUT hesitation.

While almost everyone would have called you a hero...(especially if the stabbing victim lived)... you'd be up on murder charges of your own, wouldn't you?

Unless you could prove that the attacker was turning the knife on you. And I'm sure every person on that bus would testify as such. I would.

[Cranky]

Aug 7, 2008 16:47:45 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Aug 7, 2008 13:48:20 GMT -5 clear observer said:

yet if I'm on the bus at the very moment this sick bastard begins to drive his knife into this boy's chest and I happen to have a loaded .45, I'd empty every round into his skull WITHOUT hesitation.

While almost everyone would have called you a hero...(especially if the stabbing victim lived)... you'd be up on murder charges of your own, wouldn't you?

Unless you could prove that the attacker was turning the knife on you. And I'm sure every person on that bus would testify as such. I would.

Since I play a lawyer on tv, I'll answer that....and you will not like it.

In Canada, all firearms must be kept under lock and key. So to posses a .45 on a bus would invite a weapons charge EVEN if that weapon was kept was used to save someone else's life. Charges can include "unlawfull possesion of a firearm" or "careless use of a firearm". VERY SERIOUS CHARGES.

Secondly...let's say the guys who were on the bus disarmed the whacko. They can not take any further action against him. The criminal code wording is......"more force than is necessary"..."he (assailant) declined further conflict and quitted or retreated from it (the assault) as far as it was feasible to do so before the necessity of preserving himself". All this translates to the use of MINIMUM force. If they hit the guy on the head with a wrench, as long as he stayed down, they couldn't touch him. If the guy tries to get up without a knife and they hit him again, they WILL be charged with assault. Why? Because he was not a threat.

Yes, one CAN use force to stop a SERIOUS crime (even to others)
but the use of force, even to stop a henious crime like a beheading, does NOT offer any protecion against prosecution for use of said force.

Why did the cops take three hours to get him off the bus? They could of done it in 20 minutes and then used tear gas. BUT, there would be those (almost always from the left) who would SCREAM that it was police abuse and the poor head chopper could of surrendered if they gave him more time.

We live in Canada, where criminals are not really criminals, just people who made mistakes.

[Skilly]

Well HA ... yes and no.

Yes a gun is not allowed to be loaded. Also a knife (such as the one used) is not allowed to be carried on a person either.

If CO was a friend of the victim, he could have had an unloaded gun, and loaded the ammunition, and said he feared for his life ..... it would be a dicey trial, but I feel he'd win

[CentreHice]

Aug 7, 2008 19:56:18 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Aug 7, 2008 16:47:45 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

While almost everyone would have called you a hero...(especially if the stabbing victim lived)... you'd be up on murder charges of your own, wouldn't you?

Unless you could prove that the attacker was turning the knife on you. And I'm sure every person on that bus would testify as such. I would.

Since I play a lawyer on tv, I'll answer that....and you will not like it.

In Canada, all firearms must be kept under lock and key. So to posses a .45 on a bus would invite a weapons charge EVEN if that weapon was kept was used to save someone else's life. Charges can include "unlawfull possesion of a firearm" or "careless use of a firearm". VERY SERIOUS CHARGES.

Secondly...let's say the guys who were on the bus disarmed the whacko. They can not take any further action against him. The criminal code wording is......"more force than is necessary"..."he (assailant) declined further conflict and quitted or retreated from it (the assault) as far as it was feasible to do so before the necessity of preserving himself". All this translates to the use of MINIMUM force. If they hit the guy on the head with a wrench, as long as he stayed down, they couldn't touch him. If the guy tries to get up without a knife and they hit him again, they WILL be charged with assault. Why? Because he was not a threat.

Yes, one CAN use force to stop a SERIOUS crime (even to others)
but the use of force, even to stop a henious crime like a beheading, does NOT offer any protecion against prosecution for use of said force.

Why did the cops take three hours to get him off the bus? They could of done it in 20 minutes and then used tear gas. BUT, there would be those (almost always from the left) who would SCREAM that it was police abuse and the poor head chopper could of surrendered if they gave him more time.

We live in Canada, where criminals are not really criminals, just people who made mistakes.

Just using this bus example...

Gun charges aside....(and I'm sure they can be very serious)....every person on that bus would attest to the fact that the assailant turned the knife on the shooter. That's all I was saying. And in light of what may have happened (i.e. saving a man from a brutal slaying at the hands of a madman)....the gun charges may very well have been reduced. On the other hand, a slap on the wrist would open the door for more gun toting. Slippery slope.

I know the laws have gone too far. I remember hearing once that if a guy breaks into your house, and you clock him over the head....you would be charged with assault. Perhaps he was just breaking in to use your phone.....

Innocent until proven guilty is a very important tenet to our system...but victims' rights could use a boost.

[Cranky]

Aug 7, 2008 13:48:20 GMT -5 clear observer said:

I happen to have a loaded .45, I'd empty every round into his skull WITHOUT hesitation.

Indeed, there are times.

Umm....only if it was HIS gun or a gun found on the scene.....more then one round would "excessive force" unless of course you have no recollection of how many shots you fired because you were in shock......there are no witnesses to the actual emptying of your clip while you were in shock......of course, you have no recollection of the events so you can not talk to the police at the scene..........your lawyer would help your recollections......you don't talk about your recollections with anybody else.......and last but not least....in your shock, if you just happen to walk away from the scene and never heard from again and then forgot about the incident......well, you know, because you were in shock.

Edo einai Kanadas.......

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Aug 7, 2008 19:56:18 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Aug 7, 2008 16:47:45 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

While almost everyone would have called you a hero...(especially if the stabbing victim lived)... you'd be up on murder charges of your own, wouldn't you?

Unless you could prove that the attacker was turning the knife on you. And I'm sure every person on that bus would testify as such. I would.

Since I play a lawyer on tv, I'll answer that....and you will not like it.

[/i]
I saw your show ... IRON BUTT ... DA

In Canada, all firearms must be kept under lock and key. So to posses a .45 on a bus would invite a weapons charge EVEN if that weapon was kept was used to save someone else's life. Charges can include "unlawfull possesion of a firearm" or "careless use of a firearm". VERY SERIOUS CHARGES.

Carrying a concealed weapon doesn't apply to only handguns. You could take a ceremonial sword in for appraising, but you'd better not hide it from public view. Carry it by the blade in full view. Don't even use a blanket. Honestly, I know this from experience.

Secondly...let's say the guys who were on the bus disarmed the whacko. They can not take any further action against him. The criminal code wording is......"more force than is necessary"..."he (assailant) declined further conflict and quitted or retreated from it (the assault) as far as it was feasible to do so before the necessity of preserving himself". All this translates to the use of MINIMUM force. If they hit the guy on the head with a wrench, as long as he stayed down, they couldn't touch him. If the guy tries to get up without a knife and they hit him again, they WILL be charged with assault. Why? Because he was not a threat.

I guess it comes down to how much is considered "necessary force." For instance. I honestly can't see a court in the country convicting anyone for keeping him face down, his arms tied up with a foot pressed squarely on the side of his face.

Yes, there will be those who didn't participate in subduing him and will try to punch holes in the method you used to control the idiot. But, they'll always be around ... along with the others who would thank you for saving their lives.

Yes, one CAN use force to stop a SERIOUS crime (even to others)
but the use of force, even to stop a henious crime like a beheading, does NOT offer any protecion against prosecution for use of said force.

That really depends, HA. There was a law in Canada a few years back, but I don't know if it's still in effect, but we're not permitted to protect ourselves with the use of a handgun. This is different to the USA, granted. However, if it's self defence then I think the rules change, though it would have to be a clear-cut instance of that.

Why did the cops take three hours to get him off the bus? They could of done it in 20 minutes and then used tear gas. BUT, there would be those (almost always from the left) who would SCREAM that it was police abuse and the poor head chopper could of surrendered if they gave him more time.

There will always be the extremist right/left. Damn constitution!!!

It's hard to know what they were thinking, but being a police officer in this day and age is a very unforgiving, unappreciated, often taken-for-granted, job. We often hear of their mistakes and rarely hear of their successes.

It's gotten so bad at times in Canada that officers are sometimes reluctant to take any kind of action because of the ensuing media attention they're going to get and lack of support they'll receive from their superiors. The media will feed off any suggestion of unlawful use of force, bigotry, racism, et al, and all it does is compromise the effectiveness of our police forces.

However, I know of several officers (one RCMP) would are willing to take action and let the chips fall where they may. I suspect we have more than a few of them but we don't really hear about it. And they don't exactly flaunt it.

As an aside, one thing I've noticed about a lot of our constables is that they are definitely not out to get anyone. The ones who have stopped me over the years weren't looking for trouble and gave me breaks. When it really comes down to it, these guys are very well respected by the public.

We live in Canada, where criminals are not really criminals, just people who made mistakes.

Here's one for you. I have a few buddies who work as corrections officers in Correctional Services Canada. Not too long ago, some lawyer got the idea of referring to inmates as, "correctional clients." No guff (cross my heart). The guards wouldn't go for it and the inmates hated it. It was dropped.

Correctional Clients man ... doesn't get any more delusional than that.

Cheers.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Aug 7, 2008 12:25:59 GMT -5 The New Guy said:

Aug 7, 2008 11:50:52 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Religous extremism seems to be everywhere. IMO, there's no difference between this Phelps guy and some of these extremist mullahs. Inexcusable behaviour.

Not to go completely off-topic, but there's a huge difference Dis. Comparing the Westboro Nutters to the Extremist, Blow-Up-the-Infidel Mullahs is not fair. The key difference is in their actions. The Westboro Bapist Church, for all their (many) failings, are just practicing their right to freedom of speech. They don't go around killing people, they don't actively advocate violence as a solution. They don't entreat their followers to blow themselves and others up as a key to getting into heaven.

Right on, TNG, but I never referred to the suicide bombers mate. There are extremist, fundamental Mullahs just as there are extremist, fundamental pastors, minister and rabbis.

They just talk. Yes, they condemn those of us who disagree with their morals. Yes, they judge us for our disagreement with their beliefs. But one of the things I believe in is freedom of speech. Even when it hurts. And the minute we start condemning people for their beliefs, and for exercising their right to free speech, we become no better than them.

I certainly agree with that; always did. However, some of what they find wrong with us, they, themselves, actually practice. Here's a cut and past from Wikipeida:

He is known for preaching with slogans and banners denoting phrases such as "Thank God for 9/11", "America is doomed", "God hates fags," "AIDS cures fags," and "Fags die, God laughs (or mocks)," and claims that God will punish homosexuals as well as people such as Bill O'Reilly, Coretta Scott King, Ronald Reagan, and Howard Dean, whom his church considers "fag-enablers". He has also thanked God for the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and the 2005 flooding of James Bay in central Canada.

Well, they and the fundamental Mullahs we've been talking about might agree on this. Yet, I don't know of any church denomination that uses this kind of tactic in promoting Christianity and the love of God. There are other ways that don't endorse belittling people, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, unless they're planning on physically attacking people or advocating other physically attack people, then they have a right to be there.

What about the right of the family to have a quiet burial service? Forgive me, but what if it were my family or your family?

That said, this gives the new PETA ad campaign based on the tragedy a run for the most tasteless thing I have heard today. I wonder, sometimes, who do these groups think they're fooling? Is anyone at that funeral going to up and say "Hey, you're right. The moral decay of our society is the reason why this child is dead"? Is anyone watching it going to think "Hmm, these people are the kind of a******* that God needs to spread his word - I should join them"? I suppose someone must fall in line with their beliefs, but I imagine (prefer to think, perhaps) that only people who already have fundamentally flawed views of the world could see the logic in these actions.

I hear ya' man.

Cheers.

[cigarviper]

If Tim McLean were my brother they'd have a hell of a welcoming committee to meet them at the border.

[CentreHice]

Aug 7, 2008 21:21:39 GMT -5 cigarviper said:

If Tim McLean were my brother they'd have a hell of a welcoming committee to meet them at the border.

Misguided, childish views of life IMO...even though they're welcome to them, if demonstrated peacefully (as insulting as it is). They usually end up being the butt of many jokes (and those jokes are likely spawned by Satan, in their view).

Amongst the most brainwashed of humans.....and let's face it, we're all programmed to some extent. My god is better than your god...blah blah blah......

Oh George Carlin, I miss you already....

[Cranky]

Aug 7, 2008 20:15:43 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

Just using this bus example...

Gun charges aside....(and I'm sure they can be very serious)....every person on that bus would attest to the fact that the assailant turned the knife on the shooter. That's all I was saying. And in light of what may have happened (i.e. saving a man from a brutal slaying at the hands of a madman)....the gun charges may very well have been reduced. On the other hand, a slap on the wrist would open the door for more gun toting. Slippery slope.

Do you know what it cost to defend yourself against a criminal charge no matter how "unjust"? Think in terms of car values....

It wont take more then ONE a-hole from the thirty people to talk to the media. Even if he/she has the best intentions, things will get warped enough that the extremest will come out of the woodwork screaming "vigilante".

From the bus example, three man took him out, RIGHT AWAY some people are going to scream "three against one and they KILLED HIM? They are VIGILANTES! The poor man was sick!". What he did becomes irrelevant to the "cause", or "ideals" ()...no matter how asinine the cause can be.

Aug 7, 2008 20:15:43 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

I know the laws have gone too far. I remember hearing once that if a guy breaks into your house, and you clock him over the head....you would be charged with assault. Perhaps he was just breaking in to use your phone.....

Innocent until proven guilty is a very important tenet to our system...but victims' rights could use a boost.

Criminals already know that the system is stacked in their favour. Long gone are the days where people had shotguns in their houses and breaking into a house was Russian Roullette. Now, you HAVE to be the victim to have the law on your side.

Anywho....I know what I would of done.....but I can't tell you because I'm in "shock".





BTW, did you read the latest Socialist Truther, err Toronto Star? It hadda series of endless whinning about how those poor criminals are suffering from lack of understanding and proper social love. That was the last straw for me, I called them up and told them to shove their toilet paper up their......but do you think it stopped them? I still get it even though I am not paying for it!