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Post by The New Guy on Dec 3, 2008 12:39:44 GMT -5
Nothing new, he says. The only precedent for this I can find in Canadian federal parliament is the King-Byng affair, which was, frankly, horrendously different. Actually, there is another precedent, somewhat similar, in that the coalition is over an issue of national crisis, but different in that the governing party lead the coalition. The government of Sir Robert Borden, the Union Government, asked the Liberals to join his government to present a united front over an issue of national crisis as well. The issue back then was of course, conscription. Borden felt if Laurier was in his government the issue would die in Quebec .... but Laurier was against it, but many of his Liberal colleagues jumped ship and Borden got re-elected and conscription was passed in the House. Borden also held an election after forming the coalition to ensure he had the support of the nation. Which is exactly what I'm asking for. If the country - rather than the Liberal, NDP and BQ parties - want the coalition to run the country, then it won't be back room politics that puts them in power, but the will of the citizens of this country. And although I might be against the BQ having any say in our government, I can not ask them to step aside if they are rightfully elected. What I'd really like, however, is for all four parties to stop this nonsense and bluster and get back to being a government of the people. Fat chance of that happening, I suppose, but I can dream. |
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Post by CrocRob on Dec 3, 2008 12:56:47 GMT -5
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Post by Doc Holliday on Dec 3, 2008 13:01:23 GMT -5
IMO, in the last 15 years, no other polical party has has done more to promote and push sovereignty than the Federal Liberals. As a soft sovereignist, when I end up feeling that just maybe it is possible to make this country work, they always manage to throw gas on the sovereignist flame.
Unbeleivable.
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 3, 2008 13:40:38 GMT -5
The Bloc will not be a part of the new coalition but it will support it until June 30th, 2010 at which time they are reserving the right to vote independently. Oh that's reassuring. Now that they've said they will support the government until 2010 they can't possibly go back on their word. I mean, if they did they would... um... well... uh... This is a perfect opportunity for the Bloc to relaunch the separtist movement; Look, we tried to work with them, we even formed a coalition government with them. We promised to support them for TWO years. TWO YEARS!! What more do they want from us? How much longer do we have to keep bending over for them?? All we asked for was <insert outrageous monetary amount and/or exclusive power for Quebec to protect identity and/or constitutional admendment and/or whatever> and they couldn't give it to us. Canada isn't working. We tried to help it, but the economy is in the tank, we're having elections every 8 months, nobody can figure out how to govern, the Prime Minister is the most detested leader in the country who promised to resign months ago and who is an embarrassment to Quebec... this is a sinking ship, and we need to get off it...And the worst part is... they'd be right! How can anyone argue "Canada" is working under this system?? First Pauline Marois, and now Jacques Parizeau... Parizeau can barely contain his glee at the thought of this coalition... Ex-PQ leader praises Bloc for joining coalitionPhilip Authier, Canwest News Service
Published: Wednesday, December 03, 2008
MONTREAL - Former Parti Quebecois leader Jacques Parizeau says he's delighted and very satisfied with the Bloc Quebecois' decision to join a coalition that could form the next federal government in Ottawa.
In an interview with the Journal de Montreal published Wednesday, Parizeau praises Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe for his "impressive victory," in prying enough concessions out of the coalition of the New Democratic Party and Liberals to agree to back them.
His comments reflect those of the current PQ leader Pauline Marois who is using the crisis to advance her own cause in the provincial election campaign. She says the agreement allows Quebec to get $1 billion in equalization payments it would not have otherwise had. On the other hand, Marois also says the crisis shows the Canadian federation no longer functions and Quebec should separate.
But as the spiritual leader of the PQ hard line, Parizeau's comments can only help Marois stir PQ supporters to vote for her.
"This victory sweeps aside any hesitation Quebecers might have had on the presence of the Bloc in Ottawa," Parizeau said.
Even the presence of Liberal leader Stephane Dion, an old political foe of the sovereignty movement, does not bother Parizeau.
"We have to be pragmatic and understand Mr. Dion is there for a mere five months," Parizeau told the newspaper in a telephone interview.
Now he urges Quebecers to get out and vote for the PQ Dec. 8 to "create a team able to defend Quebec's interests solidly and without compromise."
Marois, who is campaigning Wednesday in Montreal, is expected to react to the powerful endorsement at a news conference.
The blessing from Parizeau comes as internal PQ polling shows the crisis in Ottawa and the decision to portray the Bloc's decision as a victory appeals to francophone Quebecers.
PQ insiders said Tuesday evening that Liberal leader Jean Charest's decision to not comment on the crisis seems to be aiding the campaign.
"I think we are nibbling away (at the Liberal lead)," one top PQ official said
PQ officials believe Charest is not talking about the crisis because he believes it will only reinforce doubts among francophone voters about his leadership. |
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Post by CrocRob on Dec 3, 2008 14:39:12 GMT -5
So politics/platforms aside, what's the difference between one party leading in minority and having to pander to another one, or having several parties leading in majority and pandering to each other?
It probably sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm not. Is it the act of how they're coming to power that is making people upset, or is it the coalition itself (i.e. they'd be opposed to any coalition of several parties).
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Post by CrocRob on Dec 3, 2008 14:42:47 GMT -5
Leaked by the Bloc no doubt. DANIEL LEBLANC
Globe and Mail Update
December 3, 2008 at 2:07 PM EST
OTTAWA — The separatist Bloc Québécois was part of secret plotting in 2000 to join a formal coalition with the two parties that now make up Stephen Harper's government, according to documents obtained by The Globe and Mail.
The scheme, designed to propel current Conservative minister Stockwell Day to power, undermines the Harper government's line this week that it would never sign a deal like the current one between the Liberal Party, the NDP and the Bloc.
Bloc officials said that well-known Calgary lawyer Gerry Chipeur sent a written offer before the votes were counted on election day on Nov. 27, 2000.
According to prominent sovereigntist lawyer Eric Bédard, who received the proposal, Mr. Chipeur identified himself as being close to Mr. Day, the leader of the Canadian Alliance at the time.
...www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081203.wquebec1203/BNStory/National/home |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 3, 2008 18:27:02 GMT -5
Oh that's reassuring. Now that they've said they will support the government until 2010 they can't possibly go back on their word. I mean, if they did they would... um... well... uh... This is a perfect opportunity for the Bloc to relaunch the separtist movement; Look, we tried to work with them, we even formed a coalition government with them. We promised to support them for TWO years. TWO YEARS!! What more do they want from us? How much longer do we have to keep bending over for them?? All we asked for was <insert outrageous monetary amount and/or exclusive power for Quebec to protect identity and/or constitutional admendment and/or whatever> and they couldn't give it to us. Canada isn't working. We tried to help it, but the economy is in the tank, we're having elections every 8 months, nobody can figure out how to govern, the Prime Minister is the most detested leader in the country who promised to resign months ago and who is an embarrassment to Quebec... this is a sinking ship, and we need to get off it...And the worst part is... they'd be right! How can anyone argue "Canada" is working under this system?? First Pauline Marois, and now Jacques Parizeau... Parizeau can barely contain his glee at the thought of this coalition... Ex-PQ leader praises Bloc for joining coalitionPhilip Authier, Canwest News Service
Published: Wednesday, December 03, 2008
MONTREAL - Former Parti Quebecois leader Jacques Parizeau says he's delighted and very satisfied with the Bloc Quebecois' decision to join a coalition that could form the next federal government in Ottawa.
In an interview with the Journal de Montreal published Wednesday, Parizeau praises Bloc leader Gilles Duceppe for his "impressive victory," in prying enough concessions out of the coalition of the New Democratic Party and Liberals to agree to back them.
His comments reflect those of the current PQ leader Pauline Marois who is using the crisis to advance her own cause in the provincial election campaign. She says the agreement allows Quebec to get $1 billion in equalization payments it would not have otherwise had. On the other hand, Marois also says the crisis shows the Canadian federation no longer functions and Quebec should separate.
But as the spiritual leader of the PQ hard line, Parizeau's comments can only help Marois stir PQ supporters to vote for her.
"This victory sweeps aside any hesitation Quebecers might have had on the presence of the Bloc in Ottawa," Parizeau said.
Even the presence of Liberal leader Stephane Dion, an old political foe of the sovereignty movement, does not bother Parizeau.
"We have to be pragmatic and understand Mr. Dion is there for a mere five months," Parizeau told the newspaper in a telephone interview.
Now he urges Quebecers to get out and vote for the PQ Dec. 8 to "create a team able to defend Quebec's interests solidly and without compromise."
Marois, who is campaigning Wednesday in Montreal, is expected to react to the powerful endorsement at a news conference.
The blessing from Parizeau comes as internal PQ polling shows the crisis in Ottawa and the decision to portray the Bloc's decision as a victory appeals to francophone Quebecers.
PQ insiders said Tuesday evening that Liberal leader Jean Charest's decision to not comment on the crisis seems to be aiding the campaign.
"I think we are nibbling away (at the Liberal lead)," one top PQ official said
PQ officials believe Charest is not talking about the crisis because he believes it will only reinforce doubts among francophone voters about his leadership.Quite the pattern you've noticed, BC. Pretty convenient the 'who's who' of Quebec sovereignty are coming to the forefront now. I'm wondering if Lucien Bouchard and Lise Beaudoin will follow the 78-year-old, Jacques Parizeau lead. Coincidence? Not a chance. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 3, 2008 18:43:45 GMT -5
I read on another board that Ottawa will be holding two rallies; one on Thursday and another on Saturday. From what I read these rallies will be to show support to the new coalition.
I'm going to find out what our rally is going to be about, if we have one at all. But, honestly, I just can't support any rally that forces me to make a choice on this.
If it weren't for work I'd be organizing a rally to protest the TFFN (The Fab Four Nincompoops) who have turned our political system into a joke for the world to see. As far as I'm concerned, all of them deserved to be punted from office for letting this process get as far as it has.
Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 3, 2008 21:28:29 GMT -5
Of course the separatist old-guard are coming out in support.....finally the Bloc has some pull in Ottawa. To think that it will kick-back into Quebec remains to be seen....although that is their hope.
As it stands now, Duceppe has no veto power...and is basically signed on to support the coalition in confidence issues.
Did anyone see the Harper and Dion public addresses tonight?
Harper played the National Unity card....and Dion sounded as bland as usual.
A real circus.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 3, 2008 21:32:02 GMT -5
Wow ... Wow ... and Wow ...
I watched in utter disbelief at how Stephane Dion just ruined any hope that the country will ever view him as a viable option. Tomorrow Harper should forget proroguing parliament and ask for an election ... he'd win in a landslide.
The Dion tape arrives late, then the CBC has problems with it, then it is out of focus, and in the background there is a book on the shelf titled "Hot Air", AND he stumbles through it so much it is agonizing to watch .... the funds in the Liberal party are so dry that they couldn't even afford editing?
Wow ....
If Harper asks Jean tomorrow to prorogue parliament, as many feel he will do, the entire Liberal caucus and Layton should pull Dion aside and explain to him that he what happened tonight can never happen again, that what he did tonight hurt their cause, and as such ask him to step down immediately ... The Liberal party should then forego their leadership campaign and within caucus appoint a leader. If they can get a leadership convention clued up with the virtually two month that parliament is closed, great ... but if they can't, they need someone with some competency at the helm. He is asking Harper to step aside for the country and be the better man, time for him to take his own advice. Let Ignatieff run the party, explain to the party it is for the good of the country ... or something ...
Tonight my 5 yr old could have done better ... it was Mickey Mouse, and a political hanging. How can he claim he is ready to run the country, when he isnt even ready to tape a message to the country.
Jean Lapierre was on Mike Duffy Live and he said he heard that after the tape went to air Duceppe and Dion met on an elevator going downstairs to dinner and Duceppe said "What the hell just happened, you are destroying out chances" and Dion replied "I'm sorry, I'm not used to being opposition" .. WTF!!!! Get him out of there pronto!!!
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 3, 2008 21:38:03 GMT -5
Wow ... Wow ... and Wow ... I watched in utter disbelief at how Stephane Dion just ruined any hope that the country will ever view him as a viable option. Tomorrow Harper should forget proroguing parliament and ask for an election ... he'd win in a landslide. Exactly why Harper is hoping for that. Get the majority while Dion is the only other option. Hey Skilly.....I agree...it was an extrememly weak address by Dion....but how did he do in French? As always, it is his communication in English that needs much, much work. |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 3, 2008 21:50:53 GMT -5
Wow ... Wow ... and Wow ... I watched in utter disbelief at how Stephane Dion just ruined any hope that the country will ever view him as a viable option. Tomorrow Harper should forget proroguing parliament and ask for an election ... he'd win in a landslide. Exactly why Harper is hoping for that. Get the majority while Dion is the only other option. Hey Skilly.....I agree...it was an extrememly weak address by Dion....but how did he do in French? As always, it is his communication in English that needs much, much work. I didnt think his message was weak ... the content of what he said was pretty good. It was the whole circus around its deliverance. The worst thing a politician can do is look amateurish, and tonight Dion was amateur night. It didn't matter what his message was because most probably tuned him out and never listened ..... |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 3, 2008 22:41:42 GMT -5
Dion is a fool. He has no business running a bobsled team off a cliff, never mind running our country. But hey, I heard Duceppe would be a great Prime Minister.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 3, 2008 22:48:54 GMT -5
? It probably sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm not. Is it the act of how they're coming to power that is making people upset, or is it the coalition itself (i.e. they'd be opposed to any coalition of several parties). Three things are wrong as far as many Canadians are concerned. 1. Backdoor deal. And a premaditaed one at that. 2. Someone in power who only wish is to dismantle the country. 3. Village idiot by the name of Dion running the country. He LOST long time liberal voters in the last election. Any one of these is bad enough, but three are a strike out. IF you don't believe me, watch what will happen in there is an election held. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 3, 2008 23:14:46 GMT -5
This morning when I saw this, I cracked up. The only thing I could think off was I hoped they used protection.....then I show it to the wife and she got angry. "They can h*mp each other all they want but they are not going to use our flag (Canadians) to wipe themselves" she sneered. Then I got angry, real angry......  |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2008 6:20:09 GMT -5
Wow ... Wow ... and Wow ... I watched in utter disbelief at how Stephane Dion just ruined any hope that the country will ever view him as a viable option. Tomorrow Harper should forget proroguing parliament and ask for an election ... he'd win in a landslide. The Dion tape arrives late, then the CBC has problems with it, then it is out of focus, and in the background there is a book on the shelf titled "Hot Air", AND he stumbles through it so much it is agonizing to watch .... the funds in the Liberal party are so dry that they couldn't even afford editing? Wow .... If Harper asks Jean tomorrow to prorogue parliament, as many feel he will do, the entire Liberal caucus and Layton should pull Dion aside and explain to him that he what happened tonight can never happen again, that what he did tonight hurt their cause, and as such ask him to step down immediately ... The Liberal party should then forego their leadership campaign and within caucus appoint a leader. If they can get a leadership convention clued up with the virtually two month that parliament is closed, great ... but if they can't, they need someone with some competency at the helm. He is asking Harper to step aside for the country and be the better man, time for him to take his own advice. Let Ignatieff run the party, explain to the party it is for the good of the country ... or something ... Tonight my 5 yr old could have done better ... it was Mickey Mouse, and a political hanging. How can he claim he is ready to run the country, when he isnt even ready to tape a message to the country. Jean Lapierre was on Mike Duffy Live and he said he heard that after the tape went to air Duceppe and Dion met on an elevator going downstairs to dinner and Duceppe said "What the hell just happened, you are destroying out chances" and Dion replied "I'm sorry, I'm not used to being opposition" .. WTF!!!! Get him out of there pronto!!! I tried to listen to each with an open mind, but when I heard the first political correspondence say that the Liberals had communications problems in their own ranks since the election and had yet to sort it out, it biased me right off the bat. How will they be able to communicate within a coalition government if they can't effectively do that in their own party? If Dion can be believed, the Greens have given their support to the coalition as well. So much for my reaction vote. Incredible how we're privy to such a mess. This coalition will muck it up even further. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2008 6:26:16 GMT -5
And the Liberals want to run the country? The can't even organize a taped national broadcast. ================================================================ Dion fumbles with TV address
By Alexander Panetta, THE CANADIAN PRESS OTTAWA - In the battle of the airwaves Wednesday, Liberal Leader Stephane Dion showed up almost an hour late and a few pixels short in his duel with the prime minister he hopes to replace. Dion was supposed to address the Canadian public immediately after Stephen Harper, but thanks to a handful of snafus the television networks were left filling dead air. The Liberals delivered their video almost an hour late, 10 minutes after it was already supposed to air; and when it finally arrived both the English and French versions had been crammed onto the same tape, forcing broadcasters to hastily make copies. The comedy of errors had the crew at CTV musing on air that it was a poor start for a leader hoping to take over the government in the midst of an economic crisis. And the fuzzy quality of the production had CBC's anchor Peter Mansbridge cracking: "It kind of looked like they shot it with a cellphone."Liberal brass refused to comment on the incident, either on the tardiness or the technical quality of the tape. "It's the message that counts," said Dion spokesman Mark Dunn. But any fear Conservatives might have felt entering Wednesday's televised showdown appeared to have been washed away in gales of laughter as they watched their opponent's address. Members of Harper's entourage found various reasons for amusement while taking in the speech on TV sets stationed in the foyer outside the House of Commons. There was the awkwardly tight camera angle. The three re-takes as Dion struggled to utter the word, "significantly." The fuzzy, webcam-quality focus. And the conspicuous placement of a book on climate change - titled Hot Air - looming over his shoulder. Just a few moments earlier things had seemed far more promising for the Liberals. Pundits had expressed bafflement that Harper failed to offer any contrition for his role in creating a political crisis, or an olive branch that could get his opponents to stand down. Liberals were preparing to pounce on his address as further proof of the prime minister's stubborn, bullying ways. But within minutes, tongues were wagging about the missing Liberal tape. And when Dion finally appeared, almost an hour behind schedule, the talk on Parliament Hill was all about his technical troubles. CBC managing editor George Hoff said Dion's had office promised the tape by 6:20 p.m. but delivered it at 7:15. He said the Tories delivered their tape on time. One well-known Liberal blogger had a blunt assessment. Under the headline The Tape Delay, Warren Kinsella, a supporter of leadership candidate Michael Ignatieff, wrote: "This is pathetic. Someone should be fired, full stop." cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/12/03/7623931-cp.html |
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Post by franko on Dec 4, 2008 6:50:22 GMT -5
Dis, of course the Greens have given their support to the coalition -- they were part of the coalition during the debate televised gang-up, May had an open agreement with the Liberals, and many Greens were told to vote Liberal or NDP and not to waste the vote on their own party in an ABC attempt. Realize that I was this close  to actually becoming a member of the Green Party a few years back. I like David Chernushenko. He is articulate and well-spoken, thoughtful and thought-provoking [whoa: I am not pimping him!], and has good -- sound -- ideas [in fact, I think that had he be leading the GP in the last election the Greens would have won a seat or two]. Oh . . . and he is principles. Enter Elizabeth May. The media seems to either fawn over her or revile her -- no middle ground. Which can be good. Be dogmatic. Even pragmatic. But be consistent. Don't say "Green is the way to go" and then say "but vote Liberal not Green". And don't say [as she did in an interview the day after being chosen leader of the party] "We can and will work with anyone to advance our cause" and then in the next breath say "but I could never work with the Conservatives because I know they don't think the way I do [OK, I'm paraphrasing]. At that moment my colour changed, I ripped up my donation, and went back to being somewhat neutral. [btw, Green policy was heading in the right direction -- they are in some ways more right-of-centre until May] |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2008 7:42:32 GMT -5
The chronology of the tape. ================================================================ Liberals apologize for late delivery of Dion video
Updated Wed. Dec. 3 2008 10:48 PM ET
Josh Visser, CTV.ca NewsThe Liberals have apologized for Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's taped televised address, after it was delivered to Canadian networks almost an hour past deadline and in near-cellphone quality. "I apologize for what happened tonight. I apologize for the poor quality and the lateness. I am livid and am doing an investigation as to how this happened," Johanne Senecal, Dion's Chief of Staff, said to CTV News tonight. Dion was supposed to deliver the networks a pre-taped statement to the nation Wednesday between 6: 15 p.m. and 6:30 ET. It was to air after Prime Minister Stephen Harper addressed the country at 7 p.m. ET about the political crisis on Parliament Hill. CTV, along with other major Canadian networks, pre-empted regularly scheduled programming to deliver the addresses. Harper went to air shortly after 7 p.m. but networks were left scrambling to fill airspace when Dion's tape was nowhere to be found. Alphée Moreau, a senior Liberal communication staffer, explained how the series of technical mistakes on their part resulted in an embarrassing snafu. The timeline (all times ET): 6:15-6:30 - The Liberals miss their promised deadline to deliver Dion's statement to the television networks. 6:40 - Liberals arrive with a single tape at the press gallery in Ottawa. They were supposed to deliver two tapes: one in French, one in English. They arrived with a single tape in DVD-minicam format, which is not broadcast quality. Shortly after 6:40 - The Liberals decide to run back to their offices -- a block away -- because the French portion of the tape needs another edit. 7:05 - Liberal staffers are still in their offices as the networks go to air with the Harper address. 7:07 - Harper's statement finishes and network anchors are forced to kill time as they wait for Dion's address. 7:10 to 7:15 - Liberal staffers arrive back at the press gallery on Wellington Street with a DVD-minicam player that they had taken from their own offices, along with the associated cables. There is still only one tape, not two. A press gallery official tells the Liberals that the gallery is not the feed point and an argument ensues. The Liberals ask why they weren't told that earlier. The feed point is next door at the CBC building, which is the long-established feed play point for all network pools. The Liberals are informed that they need to be walked into the building by authorized staff. 7:20 - English network anchors are still live on television, wondering where the tape is. CTV has still had no communications from the Liberals about Dion's address. Approximately 7:15 - CBC receives the tape and begins dubbing into French and English versions. This takes about 10 minutes. 7:28 - CTV decides to go off-air and back to regular scheduled programming at 7:30. CTV has still not seen a feed of the tape. 7:28 - CBC incorrectly punches out the finished feed only to their network. 7:30 - CTV signs off broadcast at scheduled time. "We missed our deadline," Moreau said. "The shot was not all that professional. It was soft-focused." CTV received angry emails within minutes of signing off. Some viewers thought CTV was ignoring the Liberal leader, while others thought Dion was purposely snubbing the network. Dion's coalition partners were both angry and embarrassed by the Liberal address.The NDP said Wednesday's fiasco undermined the credibility of the coalition, CTV's Robert Fife reported. "I'm told that (Bloc Quebecois Leader) Gilles Duceppe ran into Mr. Dion in the elevator and asked 'What the hell happened?' and Mr. Dion said, 'We're not used to being in opposition," Fife said. Jean Lapierre, broadcast journalist and former Liberal MP, mocked the party's video address. "This was the cheapest video. I don't know if the Liberal party has financial problems, but they didn't have to go to a high school kid to get their video made," he said on CTV's Mike Duffy Live. "You ask people to forget about their normal TV show tonight. We did that on TVA. We had a million people waiting for a show call 'Le Poulet' -- 'The Chicken.' We didn't even get the egg!" The blogsphere was quick to pounce on Dion's bumbling performance. "Stephane Dion was late for the show, looked kind of red faced, and seemed to be getting a couple of bucks for the bankrupt Liberal Party for the product placement of a book entitled, and I kid you not, "Hot Air," wrote the Alberta Ardvark blog Wednesday. www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081203/dion_video_081203/20081203?hub=TopStories |
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Post by BadCompany on Dec 4, 2008 10:50:32 GMT -5
"It's the message that counts," said Dion spokesman Mark Dunn.
- Marshall McLuhanThat's just embarrassing. I mean, really. For a national party, for a party with serious ambitions to run the country... Question; does the Conservative party now have to pay the Liberal party for creating the next wave of PC attack ads? Jack Layton, Bob Rae, Michael Ignatieff - even Gilles Duceppe- they must be furious right now. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2008 12:19:01 GMT -5
"It's the message that counts," said Dion spokesman Mark Dunn.
- Marshall McLuhanThat's just embarrassing. I mean, really. For a national party, for a party with serious ambitions to run the country... They had their chance and they blew it. No backpeddling, no excuses. They couldn't even properly organize a blessed pre-taped press conference and in the process they've managed to establish the poster boy for a fall-guy ... Dion. No, I don't think so. But, Christmas cards will probably be in order. Furious enough to walk away from a loser? I suspect the coalition is a tad more disorganized and disjointed than they were prior to all of this coalition talk. I wonder how the brokers of this thing, Chretien and Broadbent, must be feeling right now. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 4, 2008 17:06:12 GMT -5
Jack Layton, Bob Rae, Michael Ignatieff - even Gilles Duceppe- they must be furious right now. Furious enough to walk away from a loser? I suspect the coalition is a tad more disorganized and disjointed than they were prior to all of this coalition talk. I wonder how the brokers of this thing, Chretien and Broadbent, must be feeling right now. Cheers. And so it begins. ================================================================ Liberal resolve starts to crumble
By THE CANADIAN PRESS OTTAWA - Liberal resolve to bring down the Conservative government is already starting to crumble. Within an hour of Prime Minister Stephen Harper winning a two-month reprieve, some Grit MPs were pulling back from the idea of trying to replace the Tory regime with a Liberal-NDP coalition propped up by the Bloc Quebecois. Toronto MP Jim Karygiannis says the coalition idea is finished and is calling on Stephane Dion to resign the Liberal leadership sooner rather than later. Dion is scheduled to step aside as Liberal leader once a successor is chosen May 2 but many Liberals remain uneasy about the prospect of ensconcing him in the prime minister's office even temporarily. Newfoundland MP Scott Simms says all MPs need to give their heads' a collective shake and get back in touch with what their constituents want them to do: fix the faltering economy. Victoria MP Keith Martin says the two-month suspension of Parliament gives opposition parties a chance to open lines of communication with the government and work out a way to avert another crisis in the new year. cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/12/04/7634186-cp.html |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 5, 2008 2:28:31 GMT -5
OTTAWA - Liberal resolve to bring down the Conservative government is already starting to crumble. Within an hour of Prime Minister Stephen Harper winning a two-month reprieve, some Grit MPs were pulling back from the idea of trying to replace the Tory regime with a Liberal-NDP coalition propped up by the Bloc Quebecois. Toronto MP Jim Karygiannis says the coalition idea is finished and is calling on Stephane Dion to resign the Liberal leadership sooner rather than later. Newfoundland MP Scott Simms says all MPs need to give their heads' a collective shake and get back in touch with what their constituents want them to do: fix the faltering economy. Victoria MP Keith Martin says the two-month suspension of Parliament gives opposition parties a chance to open lines of communication with the government and work out a way to avert another crisis in the new year. A LOT of Liberals know that they will be crucified for going to bed with Duceppe EVEN if Dion does an okay job. By backing away NOW, they can still claim that they really didn't want to do it but just threatened it. Imagine what will happen to the Liberals if they take over, Dummy Dion makes a complete mess of it and we go to the polls in a year or two? The Liberals would fall to a fourth rate party, maybe even come eye to eye with the Rhino Party. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 5, 2008 13:02:13 GMT -5
The Liberals would fall to a fourth rate party, maybe even come eye to eye with the Rhino Party. It's possible that if they were still around, the Rhinos would greatly benefit from this mess. However, somehow I can't see the people of Ontario allowing the Liberals to fall as far as the Conservatives did under Mulrooney/Campbell, though there are more than a few people who feel they deserve just that. You know yourself, people in this province have very short memories. Cripes, many simply ignored ADSCAM. Cheers. |
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Post by franko on Dec 5, 2008 19:01:56 GMT -5
Soon Dogbert will claim his rightful place as Emperor of the World, and you will rule by his side, replacing all governments worldwide. Our slogan will be "We're no worse than the clowns who had this job before".
Dogbert plans to turn the economy around by declaring that gold is worthless and regular rocks are highly valuable. It never made sense that rare minerals were worth the most. That was just asking for a recession. Under the Dogbert regime, you'll be able to buy a Prius with a handful of crushed stones.
I realize this concept might cause some inflation. But if the Grand Canyon is such a great natural wonder, think how much prettier the world would be with huge holes everywhere.
the Dilbert Newsletter
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 5, 2008 22:09:03 GMT -5
I hope I'm not repeating what others have said but: No. But "themselves" represents more Canadians than the current minority government, no? In my humble opinion, no, they aren't. I voted NDP just as others voted for the Liberals and Bloc. I did not vote for a coalition government and I certainly didn't vote for a coalition government whose only agenda seems to be to get rid of the present government. If this coalition goes through I will have wasted my vote big time ... BIG TIME. I bet there are lots of people who voted for the Conservatives who didn't vote for Harper to launch partisan attacks in an attempt to cripple our democracy. There's nothing unusual about political parties doing something other than what you voted for them to do. While I understand your frustration as an NDP voter, you had to know this coalition was a possibility, at least in theory. There's nothing undemocratic about it. From my perspective, everything that was promised during the election went out the window the moment Harper decided to go for the Liberals' jugular. If the opposition doesn't have confidence in Harper (and how could they?), it is their JOB to defeat the government, and if they think they can hold a coalition together, it's their job to ask the GG to give them a chance to avoid spending another $300 million to have another election that likely won't change anything. I don't think anyone expected Harper to do what he's done. Regardless of any conversations that happened before, this is a reaction to what Harper has done since the election. This IS all about Harper for me. He's shown himself to be totally incapable of leading a minority government and working with the other parties and he clearly doesn't have the best interests of Canada at heart (e.g. fanning the flames of Western alienation, calling the sovereignists "the devil" -- you might say the coalition underestimated how upset the West would be but it is Harper who is very *deliberately* tearing the country apart for his own personal gain). I don't care how bad a leader Dion is, at least he's no more corrupt/selfish/unethical than your average Canadian politician, whereas Harper is diabolical and very dangerous. I happen to be fairly left-wing in my politics but even if it was the NDP in power (har-har) and Layton did what Harper has done, I would support a Conservative led coalition because this kind of behavior is totally unacceptable. As Allan Gregg said yesterday, suspending the government to avoid losing power isn't something you expect from the Prime Minister of Canada, you expect it from Robert Mugabe. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 5, 2008 23:25:14 GMT -5
Good post, McH. I hope I'm not repeating what others have said but: In my humble opinion, no, they aren't. I voted NDP just as others voted for the Liberals and Bloc. I did not vote for a coalition government and I certainly didn't vote for a coalition government whose only agenda seems to be to get rid of the present government. If this coalition goes through I will have wasted my vote big time ... BIG TIME. I bet there are lots of people who voted for the Conservatives who didn't vote for Harper to launch partisan attacks in an attempt to cripple our democracy. There's nothing unusual about political parties doing something other than what you voted for them to do. True, but that shouldn't include reserving the right to defer my vote to another party or parties. I understand what you're saying, but I was specific with my vote and it wasn't theirs to defer. I suspected the forming of the coalition was all about removing Harper from the beginning. You're right in pointing out how arrogant and underhanded he's been recently; heck I've pointed that out myself here and there. Where I have a major problem now is that the coalition leaders initiated their action citing the government's lack of commitment to solving the economic crisis, but used it as a vehicle to save their own political hides. These parties were firmly against going into a deficit budget that you know what they did? The promised a $30-billion bailout of the automotive and forestry industries. Where's this cash coming from? Will there be a $30-billion surplus in their budget? Hardly think so, man. And, finally, after botching his latest national broadcast, Dion admits that this coalition is all about removing Harper. Yet, the Liberals can't even properly organize a prerecorded speech. How in the hell can they govern a country? I don't know if I can compare the PM to Mugabe. But, I will say again, the Tories will probably win a majority government if Harper were to step down. Like the Liberals, I think there's a division within the Conservatives as well. It's just that their leader has a permanent gag order on them. I don't like the idea of a majority government with Stephen Harper at the helm. I think we'd actually lose a bit of our identity with this guy. But, at the same time I'd be just a miffed with him if after I had voted for him, he had moved to form a coalition government to take down the Liberals. That would have deferred my vote to another party and that, too, would have been completely unacceptable to me. I could care less if it's in the constitution to be honest. I just have to look at Belgium and Italy to see what kind of mess coalition governments make. Cheers. |
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Post by CrocRob on Dec 5, 2008 23:56:43 GMT -5
How, exactly, does a coalition defer your vote to another party? Your representative is still there, voting on your behalf.
And if that's what you believe, then using the same logic you'd be against any kind of moderate or compromised legislation, because your representative would be voting for something that isn't 100% NDP-favourable.
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Post by Cranky on Dec 6, 2008 0:07:41 GMT -5
I find it interesting how someone else can be blamed for the consequences of ones actions. It's clear that those who planned this power grab willfully ignored the West and their reaction. They didn't even show the slightest interest in apologizing or give an explanationing of their blatant marginilization of the West. Yet here we are with yet another spin that their actions and consequences are somebody else's fault. Nice spin....but it's as wobbly as my old tricycle....and MOST Canadians are not buying it!  |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 6, 2008 0:29:26 GMT -5
Where's this cash coming from? Will there be a $30-billion surplus in their budget? Hardly think so, man. And, finally, after botching his latest national broadcast, Dion admits that this coalition is all about removing Harper. Yet, the Liberals can't even properly organize a prerecorded speech. How in the hell can they govern a country? They can't......but politicians by ther very nature will say and do ANYTHING for power. Dis, believe me, if you get involved with politicians at the party level, you will find they pin with neon lights words like "honesty" and "duty" on their hollow out, power mongering chests. As for the 30 billion, which will soon be 50 billion......it doesn't matter how it's going to be paid or what the future consequences will be. This is simply the reckless promise to purchase the consent of the people. Sadly, for most of the masses, there is a complete disconnect between the cost of the promises and the consequences to their own pocket book, a disconnect that politicians of the left fully exploit. |
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