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Post by Cranky on Dec 6, 2008 3:26:16 GMT -5
For the Three Stooges....GO AHEAD.....and get slaughtered!  ~~~~~~~~~~ Harper has crushing poll lead on crisis OTTAWA (Reuters) - Prime Minister Harper has mounted a crushing polling lead as the result of a political crisis in which an opposition coalition sought to take power, three polls released over the past two days showed. The surveys showed Harper's Conservatives would take well over the 40 percent needed to convert his minority in Parliament into a majority, and a lead of 20 percentage points over the main opposition Liberal Party. The main opposition Liberals, the leftist New Democrats and the Bloc Quebecois, which wants to take Quebec out of Canada, signed a deal on Monday to try to replace Harper with a Liberal-NDP coalition supported by the Bloc. They were upset with Harper's attempt, since withdrawn, to cut off direct subsidies of political parties and they also said he was not doing enough to boost the economy. During the election campaign, they had ruled out forming coalitions. Harper mounted an attack on what he called a coalition driven by separatists and socialists, and public opinion swung his way at least for now, though pollsters say spikes in support can fade as crises fade. A Strategic Counsel poll in Friday's Globe and Mail newspaper put the Conservatives ahead of the Liberals 45 to 24 percent, with the New Democrats trailing at 14 percent. This compares with the October 14 electoral result of 37.6 percent for the Conservatives, 26.2 percent for the Liberals and 18.2 percent for the New Democrats. An Ipsos Reid survey released on Friday in Canwest newspapers put the Conservatives at 46 percent, the Liberals at 23 percent and the New Democrats at 13 percent. (46% is about 175+ seats)Fifty-six percent of those polled by Ipsos Reid said they would rather go to another election, even though one was just held, rather than let the coalition govern. (Does this end the "people love the coalition" or has reality not sunk in yet?)Harper won seven weeks of breathing space on Thursday with the suspension of Parliament until late January, when he can present a budget with economic stimulus. The coalition could try to bring him down then, though some Liberals are saying they should think hard before doing that. (Nope, I say go ahead and have an slaugther, err, election.) ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCATRE4B42X520081205?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 6, 2008 3:34:03 GMT -5
I find it interesting how someone else can be blamed for the consequences of ones actions. It's clear that those who planned this power grab willfully ignored the West and their reaction. They didn't even show the slightest interest in apologizing or give an explanationing of their blatant marginilization of the West. Yet here we are with yet another spin that their actions and consequences are somebody else's fault. Nice spin....but it's as wobbly as my old tricycle. It's not about "marginalizing" the West. It's about removing a dictator who happens to be heavily supported in the West. It's unfortunate that Harper is waging a PR campaign to encourage Westerners to feel like they've been marginalized, but that isn't the fault of anyone but Harper. You might as well say that when Dion is removed as Liberal leader it will be "marginalizing" the people who voted for him. A little more than a third of Canadians voters voted for the Conservatives. That so many of them come from one region is a problem for the country, but it doesn't mean that Harper shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. |
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 6, 2008 3:53:23 GMT -5
? It probably sounds like I'm being facetious, but I'm not. Is it the act of how they're coming to power that is making people upset, or is it the coalition itself (i.e. they'd be opposed to any coalition of several parties). Three things are wrong as far as many Canadians are concerned. 1. Backdoor deal. And a premaditaed one at that. Boo hoo. I don't believe that you believe that that is the "only wish" of the BQ. Reality is nuanced, if only more people could see it. Tough to argue with that one, but I'd still take the village idiot over the dictator. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 6, 2008 4:31:55 GMT -5
I find it interesting how someone else can be blamed for the consequences of ones actions. It's clear that those who planned this power grab willfully ignored the West and their reaction. They didn't even show the slightest interest in apologizing or give an explanationing of their blatant marginilization of the West. Yet here we are with yet another spin that their actions and consequences are somebody else's fault. Nice spin....but it's as wobbly as my old tricycle. It's not about "marginalizing" the West. It's about removing a dictator who happens to be heavily supported in the West. It's unfortunate that Harper is waging a PR campaign to encourage Westerners to feel like they've been marginalized, but that isn't the fault of anyone but Harper. You might as well say that when Dion is removed as Liberal leader it will be "marginalizing" the people who voted for him. A little more than a third of Canadians voters voted for the Conservatives. That so many of them come from one region is a problem for the country, but it doesn't mean that Harper shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. Dictator? That's it? What about fascist? Ceaser? War monger? Bush Jr.? You left out a whole bunch of left wing labels. As for who voted for the Conservatives and what Canadians want, well, let's call an election and get over the slaughter.  www.ekos.com/admin/articles/5dec2008.pdf |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 6, 2008 17:27:05 GMT -5
As for the 30 billion, which will soon be 50 billion......it doesn't matter how it's going to be paid or what the future consequences will be. This is simply the reckless promise to purchase the consent of the people. And who will you blame, when Harper puts it in "his" budget? The Coalition? I find it interesting how someone else can be blamed for the consequences of ones actions.  I'd like to see Harper NOT put together a collaborative budget and then try going to the polls ... however, I have to believe (with no proof) that M.Jean told Harper that if he doesn't try to make parliament work she has to give a coalition government some serious thought. |
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 6, 2008 23:29:33 GMT -5
It's not about "marginalizing" the West. It's about removing a dictator who happens to be heavily supported in the West. It's unfortunate that Harper is waging a PR campaign to encourage Westerners to feel like they've been marginalized, but that isn't the fault of anyone but Harper. You might as well say that when Dion is removed as Liberal leader it will be "marginalizing" the people who voted for him. A little more than a third of Canadians voters voted for the Conservatives. That so many of them come from one region is a problem for the country, but it doesn't mean that Harper shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. Dictator? That's it? What about fascist? Ceaser? War monger? Bush Jr.? You left out a whole bunch of left wing labels. Yes, of course any criticism of Harper is just crazy left-wing propaganda, "labels," and whatever else you want to say to dismiss it, whereas all the arguments in his favor are so intelligent, truthful, and well thought out.  |
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 7, 2008 2:17:21 GMT -5
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 7, 2008 15:07:45 GMT -5
Excellent take. I was asking earlier in the thread, if Harper had gotten the two-party system he was looking for, would our riding system have eventually turned into an Electoral College? And now I have to ask, will our parliamentary system eventually be replaced after that? I don't want to see Harper with a majority. But, the coalition parties aren't leaving too many alternatives right now. The Liberals are calling for a leadership change before the new year. Layton is insisting two parties are better than one. It's all about bringing down Harper. That hasn't changed. It might help if he steps aside, but I doubt his ego would allow for that. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 7, 2008 15:36:26 GMT -5
Harper has crushing poll lead on crisis OTTAWA (Reuters) - Prime Minister Harper has mounted a crushing polling lead as the result of a political crisis in which an opposition coalition sought to take power, three polls released over the past two days showed. The surveys showed Harper's Conservatives would take well over the 40 percent needed to convert his minority in Parliament into a majority, and a lead of 20 percentage points over the main opposition Liberal Party. All part of Phase II....and it's working like a charm. Phase III will the tabling of another "unacceptable" budget. Non-confidence....election call. Phase IV: Election result, Harper majority. --------------------------------------------------------- As Rick Mercer says at the end of his video....the country didn't vote for Harper to act like a majority and try to cripple/bankrupt the opposition with the removal of public subsidies. If anybody didn't accept the result of the last election, it was Harper. Why else would he have ignored what the rest of the world leaders are doing: i.e. working together to focus on the economy. I don't care if it was Dion or Layton acting in this manner.....it is reprehensible. Too bad the opposition didn't simply vote down the proposals and go from there. Too bad they took the bait. Canadians, regardless of political stripe, should be very wary of a Harper majority. All arrows point West and stop at Alberta. -------------------------------------------------------- Harper's playing poker, and he was hoping to get the "In Bed With Separatists" card....he got it. Usually 3-of-a-kind would beat it....but not when they're all perceived as jokers. A very divisive strategy....and it's working. So far. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 7, 2008 15:43:15 GMT -5
Rick Mercers take, the wannabe left wing Daily Show talking head. Wow, I'm so impressed with his rants depth and breadth of political and economic issues! Oh wait, it had no content other then mindless "blame Haper" ranting..... |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 7, 2008 15:44:04 GMT -5
Harper has crushing poll lead on crisis OTTAWA (Reuters) - Prime Minister Harper has mounted a crushing polling lead as the result of a political crisis in which an opposition coalition sought to take power, three polls released over the past two days showed. The surveys showed Harper's Conservatives would take well over the 40 percent needed to convert his minority in Parliament into a majority, and a lead of 20 percentage points over the main opposition Liberal Party. All part of Phase II....and it's working like a charm. Phase III will the tabling of another "unacceptable" budget. Non-confidence....election call. Phase IV: Election result, Harper majority. --------------------------------------------------------- As Rick Mercer says at the end of his video....the country didn't vote for Harper to act like a majority and try to cripple/bankrupt the opposition with the removal of public subsidies. If anybody didn't accept the result of the last election, it was Harper. Why else would he have ignored what the rest of the world leaders are doing: i.e. working together to focus on the economy. I don't care if it was Dion or Layton acting in this manner.....it is reprehensible. Too bad the opposition didn't simply vote down the proposals and go from there. Too bad they took the bait. Canadians, regardless of political stripe, should be very wary of a Harper majority. All arrows point West and stop at Alberta. A very divisive strategy.....and it's working. I like the opinion that this could have been his strategy all along, but I just get the impression; his facial expressions and in the tones of his address, that Harper wasn't ready for the coalition when formed. To me his mannerisms suggested that even if he knew of the coalition beforehand, he was simply caught off guard. As I was saying before, though, I think some political analyst will write a brilliant article or even a book at how Harper engineered all of this. But, I just don't buy into it, man. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 7, 2008 15:47:32 GMT -5
Rick Mercers take, the wannabe left wing Daily Show talking head. Wow, I'm so impressed with his rants depth and breadth of political and economic issues! Oh wait, it had no content other then mindless "blame Haper" ranting..... Conservatives good. Everyone else bad....I get it. |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 7, 2008 15:53:47 GMT -5
Canadians, regardless of political stripe, should be very wary of a Harper majority. All arrows point West and stop at Alberta. Show me the arrows. Show me how fiscal conservatism is bad for Canada. It is easy to throw visceral anti-Harper cladding but where is the content? |
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Post by Cranky on Dec 7, 2008 16:04:57 GMT -5
Conservatives good. Everyone else bad....I get it. Nope, not even remotly close. It's all about the current and economic future as well as they not buying into the Gore sky falling with me. I can throw the Conservatives religious and pro-life stand under the bus and then stomp on it. The three stooges "Tax and spending" from hell and propping up the sky with dollars is going to send us to economic hell. I've been in economic hell and I DON'T want to go back. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 7, 2008 16:11:10 GMT -5
Canadians, regardless of political stripe, should be very wary of a Harper majority. All arrows point West and stop at Alberta. Show me the arrows. Show me how fiscal conservatism is bad for Canada. It is easy to throw visceral anti-Harper cladding but where is the content? I have already posted two videos from Ted Morton, Minister of Sustainable Resource Development of Alberta (PC)....who, with Stephen Harper in 2000, co-authored the Alberta Agenda, which is looking for Less Ottawa, More Alberta. Morton said nobody was happier than he was when Harper was elected PM...and that the Alberta Agenda was alive and well. In the same interview session, Morton gave his perspective on equalization payments. I'm not posting them again. --------------------------------- And for the record, I've been a fiscal conservative all my life....but you point out to me that Harper's brand of conservatism is fiscal conservatism. Not with these tactics. Why didn't he take his minority government, and work with the other parties to focus on the economy two weeks ago? I know, the public subsidies for political parties would have saved money....but what an outcome, huh? Eliminating the opposition. It's like having Sean Avery on the Montreal Canadiens. You can still love the team...but sometimes you have to question the motives. |
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Post by franko on Dec 7, 2008 16:52:51 GMT -5
Fact is that Harper has been acting like a Liberal, first with his financial policy [spend spend spend, even though there have been tax breaks], then with his attitude in running the country [acting like he has divine right].
HA -- there are four stooges.
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Post by franko on Dec 7, 2008 17:29:35 GMT -5
I like the opinion that this could have been his strategy all along, but I just get the impression; his facial expressions and in the tones of his address, that Harper wasn't ready for the coalition when formed. To me his mannerisms suggested that even if he knew of the coalition beforehand, he was simply caught off guard. As I was saying before, though, I think some political analyst will write a brilliant article or even a book at how Harper engineered all of this. Reminds me of . . . or . . . |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 7, 2008 21:59:15 GMT -5
Just saw a blurb on the news.....
Looks as if Dion is going to resign as Leader of the Libs.
Not a moment too soon.
Ignatieff's the front runner....but Rae thinks (and this is so ironically funny) that it's a decision that shouldn't be made behind the scenes. It should be a vote open to the entire Party, he says.
You can't write this stuff.
Ignatieff is the cooler head, as he's on record as saying let's see what happens with the budget....while Rae is in the "Harper can't be trusted no matter what" crowd.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 7, 2008 22:08:04 GMT -5
Just saw a blurb on the news..... Looks as if Dion is going to resign as Leader of the Libs. Not a moment too soon. I read this earlier today. The Liberal camp has been extremely damaged by Dion's poor-quality national address. I think if he does resign soon, the Grits will retrieve a lot of votes. At least Ignatieff is not flinching. If he actually wants to hear the budget first that's progress. If the Grits go with a party vote and Rae gets in, they won't be any further ahead than what they are now. In fact, I think they'd lose even more votes, especially in Ontario. Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 7, 2008 23:34:05 GMT -5
Just saw a blurb on the news..... Looks as if Dion is going to resign as Leader of the Libs. Not a moment too soon. Ignatieff's the front runner....but Rae thinks (and this is so ironically funny) that it's a decision that shouldn't be made behind the scenes. It should be a vote open to the entire Party, he says. You can't write this stuff. Ignatieff is the cooler head, as he's on record as saying let's see what happens with the budget....while Rae is in the "Harper can't be trusted no matter what" crowd. The Liberals need unity ... LeBlanc dropped out of the race. I believe I heard that 57 of the MPs back Ignatieff. I do not like the idea I heard floating that Ignatieff will be the Parliament leader of the party and not the national leader.... thats crazy. Show some unity and for once do what is best for the country and have Rae drop out. |
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Post by franko on Dec 8, 2008 10:12:11 GMT -5
Ignatieff . . . Rae . . . whoever is not leader of the Liberals will be heading back to the private sector soon after the next election, whatever they say. Rae did not join the Liberal Party and Iggy did not come back to Canada to play second fiddle.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Dec 8, 2008 20:10:24 GMT -5
It's not about "marginalizing" the West. It's about removing a dictator who happens to be heavily supported in the West. It's unfortunate that Harper is waging a PR campaign to encourage Westerners to feel like they've been marginalized, but that isn't the fault of anyone but Harper. You might as well say that when Dion is removed as Liberal leader it will be "marginalizing" the people who voted for him. A little more than a third of Canadians voters voted for the Conservatives. That so many of them come from one region is a problem for the country, but it doesn't mean that Harper shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. Dictator? That's it? What about fascist? Ceaser? War monger? Bush Jr.? You left out a whole bunch of left wing labels. As for who voted for the Conservatives and what Canadians want, well, let's call an election and get over the slaughter. www.ekos.com/admin/articles/5dec2008.pdfI hadn't seen this chart before, but it clearly indicates that the Conservatives has a strong showing and won handily everywhere but in Quebec. The US has the same problem. A person or party can win the popular vote, but the will of the people is thwarted by the system that puts a huge premium on hanging chad in single state like Florida or a separatist block in a single province. Doesn't the will of the people count? Shouldn't a vote in Florida be worth the same as a vote in California. Obama beat Hillary by focusing in strategic locations and even though the popular vote was close, he won handily in the electoral college taking specific states by small margins. The argument that politicians won't visit Newfoundland because there are more votes in Ontario is valid, but today with television and the internet, a speech in Come by Chance is aired from Bonavista to Prince Rupert. The PC gets more votes than the Liberals and NDP combined. It would be a shame if GG let their small minority attempt to run the country. (By the way, how did George Gilette, get to pick the Prime Minister. Did he buy the country with Molson's Coors guaranteeing the loan? He is one smart manipulative dude) |
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 8, 2008 21:07:18 GMT -5
The PC gets more votes than the Liberals and NDP combined. Note that that's a poll and not the results of the last election. Note also that given the margin of error, the Conservatives are essentially in a statistical tie with the Liberals' and NDP's combined total. |
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Post by franko on Dec 8, 2008 21:27:44 GMT -5
Next election [you know it'll come sooner or later] ya think the Liberals are going to dust off the "Stephen Harper is scary" ads?
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Post by MC Habber on Dec 8, 2008 23:20:42 GMT -5
Next election [you know it'll come sooner or later] ya think the Liberals are going to dust off the "Stephen Harper is scary" ads? Funny, at the time I thought those ads were just fear-mongering, more-or-less. Now I think they were right. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2008 7:51:51 GMT -5
New leaders means new attitudes I guess. The coalition might be following Dion out the door, though the article also suggests that it could "evolve." Just the same, I think the threat of a coalition government was enough to give Harper a wakeup call. ============================================================ Coalition may follow Dion out
By CHRISTINA SPENCER, NATIONAL BUREAUAs Liberals haggle over an interim leader, their willingness to cement the party's fresh coalition with the NDP seems to be softening. "All bets are off," said longtime Liberal Thomas Axworthy, former principal secretary to Pierre Trudeau. "It was Dion who made that deal." The coalition concept "could evolve," said Bruce Young, who co-chaired the Liberal's federal election campaign in British Columbia. "I think it behooves all coalition partners to take a good hard look at what the government does between now and Jan. 26 (when Parliament returns). It is not impossible that the government might change its ways and actually do something that helps Canadians." The coalition, cobbled together by Stephane Dion and the NDP's Jack Layton, threatened to bring down the Harper government -- until the governor general suspended Parliament. The coalition is backed by the Bloc Quebecois. COOL TO COALITION Liberal MP Michael Ignatieff, thought to be the likeliest choice as next Liberal leader, has been cool to the coalition, speaking of "coalition if necessary, but not necessarily coalition." MP Judy Sgro, who supports Ignatieff's bid for the leadership, said yesterday the Liberal-NDP coalition had proven to be a useful "bargaining tool" though she had been uneasy about partnering with both the NDP and the BQ. Polls indicate most Canadians don't like the coalition, even if a new Liberal leader fronted it. Partnering with left-wing parties was a case of acting "willy-nilly, caucus taking us in a direction the party hadn't had any debate on," Axworthy said. Axworthy, now chair of the Centre for the Study of Democracy at Queen's University, has long argued that the party needs a full debate about its future direction. He said Liberals should revisit whether the coalition concept, "which was useful to put the fear of God into the government, has continuing validity." Layton said in a statement yesterday that he's still behind the alliance. He praised "the entire Liberal caucus" for "putting aside political differences with the New Democrats to forge a majority coalition." The Bloc Quebecois said it also was still prepared to stay involved. cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/12/09/7681606-sun.html |
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Post by Skilly on Dec 9, 2008 8:17:06 GMT -5
The Liberals should learn to keep their mouths shut ... oh wait they are politicians ...
They are laying the groundwork now to back down from their "coalition" tactic and look weak in the eyes of the Conservatives (again) and alienate two parties whose help they most certainly will need in the future. So any attempt now to form the coalition will look suspect since many, even the leader in waiting, seem wishy washy to the idea ....
Leave it to the Liberals to not be able to make a decision and stand by it (which was always my beef with them and why I have never voted Liberal in federal elections ....)....
Their only hope now of ousting Harper is if he is a complete moron and tries to introduce a terrible budget ....
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Dec 9, 2008 8:25:53 GMT -5
The Liberals should learn to keep their mouths shut ... oh wait they are politicians ... They are laying the groundwork now to back down from their "coalition" tactic and look weak in the eyes of the Conservatives (again) and alienate two parties whose help they most certainly will need in the future. So any attempt now to form the coalition will look suspect since many, even the leader in waiting, seem wishy washy to the idea .... Leave it to the Liberals to not be able to make a decision and stand by it (which was always my beef with them and why I have never voted Liberal in federal elections ....).... They never had that problem when they had strong leadership, Skilly. Mind you we'd have to go back a ways for that ... possibly he who must not be named Trudeau. I don't think Harper will leave them an opening. If the opposition parties find something on him, they'll have to prove their point beyond a shadow of a doubt, or they'll be blamed for calling the next election and providing the Tories with a majority. They have to be very careful, IMO. And reinstituting the coalition might blow up on them again. Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Dec 9, 2008 8:47:24 GMT -5
Correct Dis, IMO.
That's why the Libs need the cooler head, Ignatieff, as leader....and not Rae, who will most certainly travel the country (has that plan been scrapped?) espousing, "Harper can not be trusted no matter what?"
I think Canadians will have a lot more respect for the approach: "Let's give the PCs the chance to come up with a workable budget that's open to collaboration."
Somebody has to take the high road....if that's possible in politics....and Ignatieff is the guy to convey that message. I like the "coalition if necessary, but not necessarily coalition" direction.
The best solution for this country right now, is for Harper to focus on working on the economy through fiscal conservatism....while, as he said in his address to the nation, being open to collaboration from the other parties.
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Post by Skilly on Dec 9, 2008 9:06:43 GMT -5
They never had that problem when they had strong leadership, Skilly. Mind you we'd have to go back a ways for that ... possibly he who must not be named Trudeau. Even in the early Chretien years Dis ... this whole coalition was sound when they were "united" - yes, it was political and they were playing it as "for the better of the country", but they were united .... .... voices coming out now, breaking ranks. Most against Dion yes, but by doing so showing their personal beefs against recent decision, goes against unity and the country does not need that right now .... |
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