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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 7, 2016 18:12:09 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Feb 7, 2016 23:10:12 GMT -5
I saw on the TSN ticker today that Bergevin told the other GMs that Fleischmann, Weise, and Gilbert are on the trading block.
Doesn't sound like he wants to put much effort into this rebuild.
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Post by blny on Feb 8, 2016 0:22:08 GMT -5
I've always thought that was attainable for Larry, but at $3.5 million I'd like to do it for less.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 8, 2016 1:03:01 GMT -5
I saw on the TSN ticker today that Bergevin told the other GMs that Fleischmann, Weise, and Gilbert are on the trading block. Doesn't sound like he wants to put much effort into this rebuild. I've got a new parade route I think will work.  Remember, we're working toward next year, not this year. |
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Post by blny on Feb 8, 2016 1:39:33 GMT -5
I saw on the TSN ticker today that Bergevin told the other GMs that Fleischmann, Weise, and Gilbert are on the trading block. Doesn't sound like he wants to put much effort into this rebuild. I've got a new parade route I think will work. Remember, we're working toward next year, not this year. Certainly would make sense to make all UFA players available (along with anyone else). All three should be cheap depth pick ups, and provide extra picks in the draft this year. Nothing to say you can't bring Weise back on July 1. Gilbert and Flash won't be back so best to get something for them. ... and if there are Western Conference teams interested him for a shut down role, line up and give your best offer. |
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Post by jkr on Feb 8, 2016 8:26:59 GMT -5
saw that stuff about Weise and the others on the Sportsnet ticker too. They attributed it to an Ottawa Sun report. That means Garrioch - he's stating the obvious or just talking out of his butt.
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Post by frozone on Feb 8, 2016 10:43:53 GMT -5
So if what Engels says is true, then what is it that MT sees that makes him so critical of Eller's game? I'd really like to know... Although Eller doesn't score as much as I had hoped, his overall game and competitiveness is something worth keeping imo.
I still remember when the Gryba hit took him out of the Ottawa series a few years back. The team really felt his absence afterwards.
For what it's worth, Eller and the 2 Gals were a trio during that stretch of the Ottawa series and they were our best line... I realize that's not super relevant to Eller's skills as a shutdown center, but when there's an opening to make a passive aggressive comment about MT's line combos, why pass it up?
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Post by blny on Feb 8, 2016 15:33:14 GMT -5
So if what Engels says is true, then what is it that MT sees that makes him so critical of Eller's game? I'd really like to know... Although Eller doesn't score as much as I had hoped, his overall game and competitiveness is something worth keeping imo. I still remember when the Gryba hit took him out of the Ottawa series a few years back. The team really felt his absence afterwards. For what it's worth, Eller and the 2 Gals were a trio during that stretch of the Ottawa series and they were our best line... I realize that's not super relevant to Eller's skills as a shutdown center, but when there's an opening to make a passive aggressive comment about MT's line combos, why pass it up? For me, it's all about where the money is spent. If the quick turn around retool is done right, Lars never gets a whiff in the top six again. Could he be kept on as a third line center? Sure. While I'm not completely opposed to the notion, I come back to the Blackhawks as a model. The Bickell contract taught them something imo. It taught them not to invest big cap space in bottom six forwards or bottom pair defenders. Invest in as good a top six and as good a top 4 as you can. After that, the parts are interchangeable and around $1 million a piece - no more. Same goes for goalies. Invest in your starter. Have a cheap back up. The model has worked really well for the Hawks. 3 Cups and an appearance in the Conference Finals in 14. When a guy on the third line becomes a tweener, trade them if you can. Walk away if you have to. If you covet a guy like Eller, but he's too pricey, pick him up as a UFA at the deadline for your playoff run. Rinse, repeat. Larry's a decent enough player, but he's not irreplaceable. For what he is, and what he would be on a deep team, he's making $1 million too much (at least). |
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Post by Cranky on Feb 8, 2016 17:20:14 GMT -5
So if what Engels says is true, then what is it that MT sees that makes him so critical of Eller's game? I'd really like to know... Although Eller doesn't score as much as I had hoped, his overall game and competitiveness is something worth keeping imo. I still remember when the Gryba hit took him out of the Ottawa series a few years back. The team really felt his absence afterwards. For what it's worth, Eller and the 2 Gals were a trio during that stretch of the Ottawa series and they were our best line... I realize that's not super relevant to Eller's skills as a shutdown center, but when there's an opening to make a passive aggressive comment about MT's line combos, why pass it up? For me, it's all about where the money is spent. If the quick turn around retool is done right, Lars never gets a whiff in the top six again. Could he be kept on as a third line center? Sure. While I'm not completely opposed to the notion, I come back to the Blackhawks as a model. The Bickell contract taught them something imo. It taught them not to invest big cap space in bottom six forwards or bottom pair defenders. Invest in as good a top six and as good a top 4 as you can. After that, the parts are interchangeable and around $1 million a piece - no more. Same goes for goalies. Invest in your starter. Have a cheap back up. The model has worked really well for the Hawks. 3 Cups and an appearance in the Conference Finals in 14. When a guy on the third line becomes a tweener, trade them if you can. Walk away if you have to. If you covet a guy like Eller, but he's too pricey, pick him up as a UFA at the deadline for your playoff run. Rinse, repeat. Larry's a decent enough player, but he's not irreplaceable. For what he is, and what he would be on a deep team, he's making $1 million too much (at least). Sharing the same adult diapers mind on this. I like Eller but he is not producing for what he is getting paid. For the money, we need him to be a 20 goal 2nd line center. Unfortunatly, we have don't have a true 1a center so he has to be kept as backup. Idealy, he's on the third line and shutting down for a couple of million. |
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Post by seventeen on Feb 8, 2016 19:22:16 GMT -5
I come back to the Blackhawks as a model. The Bickell contract taught them something imo. It taught them not to invest big cap space in bottom six forwards or bottom pair defenders. Invest in as good a top six and as good a top 4 as you can. After that, the parts are interchangeable and around $1 million a piece - no more. Same goes for goalies. Invest in your starter. Have a cheap back up. The model has worked really well for the Hawks. 3 Cups and an appearance in the Conference Finals in 14. Theoretically, that's exactly what everyone should do. Those that have succeeded are the ones who a) sucked for a while and b) were lucky enough to have sucked in a primo draft year. If the Hawks had their first and third picks in 2010/11/12, they'd have gotten a good player, but nothing like a Toews or a Kane. The next two picks after Kane were Van Riemsdyk and Kyle Turris. Yippee. I think that was the year the Hawks won the lottery or they might have Turris instead of Kane. If you don't get those high picks in a good year, loading up the top 6 and top 4 is not that easy. But I get what you mean. That's where your money has to be concentrated, even if the players aren't the greatest. |
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Post by blny on Feb 8, 2016 20:42:20 GMT -5
I come back to the Blackhawks as a model. The Bickell contract taught them something imo. It taught them not to invest big cap space in bottom six forwards or bottom pair defenders. Invest in as good a top six and as good a top 4 as you can. After that, the parts are interchangeable and around $1 million a piece - no more. Same goes for goalies. Invest in your starter. Have a cheap back up. The model has worked really well for the Hawks. 3 Cups and an appearance in the Conference Finals in 14. Theoretically, that's exactly what everyone should do. Those that have succeeded are the ones who a) sucked for a while and b) were lucky enough to have sucked in a primo draft year. If the Hawks had their first and third picks in 2010/11/12, they'd have gotten a good player, but nothing like a Toews or a Kane. The next two picks after Kane were Van Riemsdyk and Kyle Turris. Yippee. I think that was the year the Hawks won the lottery or they might have Turris instead of Kane. If you don't get those high picks in a good year, loading up the top 6 and top 4 is not that easy. But I get what you mean. That's where your money has to be concentrated, even if the players aren't the greatest. Tank and get that Mathews/Laine/Puljujarvi. With Galch, Stamkos, and the quick retool, you're there. |
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Post by seventeen on Feb 8, 2016 21:00:06 GMT -5
I'm praying for that daily. If only MT can hold true to form and our goaltending doesn't get hot.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 9, 2016 8:53:25 GMT -5
Eller might be gone just on the amount of money he makes ... wouldn't mind seeing Desharnais moved either but don't think there'd be much of a return, or at least not as much a return as Eller might bring (size, etc) ... that's just me, though ...
Cheers.
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Post by franko on Feb 9, 2016 9:47:54 GMT -5
Eller might be gone just on the amount of money he makes ... wouldn't mind seeing Desharnais moved either but don't think there'd be much of a return, or at least not as much a return as Eller might bring (size, etc) ... that's just me, though ... Cheers. DD: addition by subtraction? |
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Post by Cranky on Feb 9, 2016 9:53:16 GMT -5
Eller might be gone just on the amount of money he makes ... wouldn't mind seeing Desharnais moved either but don't think there'd be much of a return, or at least not as much a return as Eller might bring (size, etc) ... that's just me, though ... Cheers. DD: addition by subtraction? Hard to do either when you're working with really small numbers... |
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Post by blny on Feb 9, 2016 10:04:50 GMT -5
Eller might be gone just on the amount of money he makes ... wouldn't mind seeing Desharnais moved either but don't think there'd be much of a return, or at least not as much a return as Eller might bring (size, etc) ... that's just me, though ... Cheers. I've done the math, and if neither player can be moved I buy them out. It saves $4.7 million next year, and $1.1725 million the following year. Only in 2018-19 do you find yourself with extra money on your cap, and it's $1.1725 million for that season and the next. I can more than live with that. The $4.7 million can go to a legitimate scoring winger for the top six and he should provide the goals that Eller and Desharnais combine for, while costing less. You can then take the difference in the salaries of Eller and Desharnais vs the scoring winger ($2.3 million) and invest elsewhere - lhd, Stamkos, etc. pacioretty stamkos gallagher hartnell galchenyuk ELC (Laine) Carr Byron Andrighetto Weise Mitchell Flynn Coburn Subban Beaulieu Petry Emelin Pateryn Barberio Price Condon Eller buyout Desharnais buyout PAP buyout 4.5 10 3.75 4.75 2.8 0.95 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 9 1 5.5 4.1 0.8 0.7 6.5 0.575 1.1725 1.1725 1.33 That's a total team cap of $69.6 million. You've got a top six with a mix of size, skill, scoring, and sandpaper. You've got a third line that's a kid line, but all three have shown promise. It's not a 'checking line', but Carr and Byron have shown responsibility. Byron is a strong PK player. Emelin's contract is an issue, but you might find a taker later in the year when it's closer to one year left. Obviously, this roster also means Pleks and Markov are gone. The bottom six isn't perfect, but my intent would be to roll the top two lines a lot and balance off the rest with the others. You can mix and match. |
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Post by Skilly on Feb 9, 2016 12:26:20 GMT -5
You have to include bonuses on the ELC contract. If we manage to tank, that ELC will potentially be over 3 million, which we have to save space for.
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Post by blny on Feb 9, 2016 12:33:51 GMT -5
You have to include bonuses on the ELC contract. If we manage to tank, that ELC will potentially be over 3 million, which we have to save space for. ... or lose that space the following season. |
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Post by wetcoasthabsfan on Feb 9, 2016 15:35:46 GMT -5
That's why we prefer to line him up as a scoring winger |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 9, 2016 20:39:04 GMT -5
That's why we prefer to line him up as a scoring winger Right on ... good to see you back, too, WCHF ... Cheers. |
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Post by folatre on Feb 9, 2016 23:26:38 GMT -5
Eller is making too much money for a guy with average offensive skills like shooting/stick handling and worse offensive vision/instincts. But to buy his contract out is in my view not logical. There are teams with cap space and no one to perform well as checking centre that would pick him up for at least minimal asset exchange. And it is also wise to remember that Eller for at least next season could have a stable and important role (third line centre) and management must correctly ascertain if there is an adequate replacement ready in the organisation or otherwise available.
The redundant piece is Plekanec or Desharnais. Two small "offensive" guys playing 1-2 down the middle season after season is epitome of illogical roster management.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Feb 10, 2016 8:48:26 GMT -5
Eller is making too much money for a guy with average offensive skills like shooting/stick handling and worse offensive vision/instincts....The redundant piece is Plekanec or Desharnais. Two small "offensive" guys playing 1-2 down the middle season after season is epitome of illogical roster management. The Habs should be very careful with Eller. I think other teams value HIGHLY his package of size, skating, puck skills, and overall 200-foot game. At the end of the day his offensive instincts are below average, but he's a valuable player for us. He's one of the better possession drivers on the team. And his contract is totally reasonable. Two more years at $3.5 million for a 26-year old versatile checking center is really spot on with comparable players. I agree that Pleks and Desharnais pose more problems. I've always thought that DD could find new life as a 3rd line winger in the Mark Recchi mold. Good passing skills, savvy offensive player, but a liability on defense. Sadly, Therrien would rather move Eller to the wing than Desharnais. The prospect of Eller being the guy that gets shipped out truly scares me, if the consequence is being stuck with Pleks and DD. But I also think Eller is BY FAR the most tradeable. That should tell us something. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 10, 2016 10:38:10 GMT -5
Eller is making too much money for a guy with average offensive skills like shooting/stick handling and worse offensive vision/instincts....The redundant piece is Plekanec or Desharnais. Two small "offensive" guys playing 1-2 down the middle season after season is epitome of illogical roster management. The Habs should be very careful with Eller. I think other teams value HIGHLY his package of size, skating, puck skills, and overall 200-foot game. At the end of the day his offensive instincts are below average, but he's a valuable player for us. He's one of the better possession drivers on the team. And his contract is totally reasonable. Two more years at $3.5 million for a 26-year old versatile checking center is really spot on with comparable players. I agree that Pleks and Desharnais pose more problems. I've always thought that DD could find new life as a 3rd line winger in the Mark Recchi mold. Good passing skills, savvy offensive player, but a liability on defense. Sadly, Therrien would rather move Eller to the wing than Desharnais. The prospect of Eller being the guy that gets shipped out truly scares me, if the consequence is being stuck with Pleks and DD. But I also think Eller is BY FAR the most tradeable. That should tell us something. Again, listening to TSN690 this morning (for the amount of time I spent driving to work, anyway) and I'd say they'd agree with you ... according to Connor McKenna, Lars Eller is making has been one of the few consistent players we've had on the roster this year ... according to McKenna, Eller is making his linemates better just by playing his game ... wish I could remember what else they said about him, but they quickly moved onto the Leafs/Sens trade ... Cheers. |
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Post by blny on Feb 10, 2016 10:54:15 GMT -5
The only way keep Eller, while seriously upgrading the top six and getting that high lottery pick, is to ensure the removal of Pleks, DD, and Markov without retaining salary.
4.5 10 3.75
4.75 2.8 0.95 69.955 total with PAP buyout at $1.33 million
1 3.5 1
1 1.2 1
5 9
1 5.5
4.1 0.8
0.7
6.5 0.575 1.33
There's a lot less of a buffer.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Feb 10, 2016 11:37:16 GMT -5
The only way keep Eller, while seriously upgrading the top six and getting that high lottery pick, is to ensure the removal of Pleks, DD, and Markov without retaining salary. Moving the likes of Plekanec, DD, and Emelin without taking back salary is the rub. Pleks is playing better right now, but is there honestly a taker for his contract at the deadline? As much as I've appreciated Pleks' consistency and durability, that 2 year extension at $6m per was ill-advised. Same with Emelin. DD might be easier to move given he only has 1 more year at $3.5 million and is a proven offensive player. Above all, being a seller at the deadline AND making a playoff push aren't necessarily at odds with each other. Hopefully there are enough buyers at the deadline that Bergevin can move out a contract or two, while still staying competitive. I want to be in on Stamkos if he goes UFA. |
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Post by blny on Feb 10, 2016 12:05:47 GMT -5
The only way keep Eller, while seriously upgrading the top six and getting that high lottery pick, is to ensure the removal of Pleks, DD, and Markov without retaining salary. Moving the likes of Plekanec, DD, and Emelin without taking back salary is the rub. Pleks is playing better right now, but is there honestly a taker for his contract at the deadline? As much as I've appreciated Pleks' consistency and durability, that 2 year extension at $6m per was ill-advised. Same with Emelin. DD might be easier to move given he only has 1 more year at $3.5 million and is a proven offensive player. Above all, being a seller at the deadline AND making a playoff push aren't necessarily at odds with each other. Hopefully there are enough buyers at the deadline that Bergevin can move out a contract or two, while still staying competitive. I want to be in on Stamkos if he goes UFA. I think Plekanec can still produce offensively, but am in full agreement regarding the 2 year extension. I'd be working hard to find a team needing a good #2 and/or a veteran presence. He's still a jack of all trades player. Emelin is the hardest to move. He's been shifting between 2nd pair and third most of the year. I think he's looked better this year than last, but the contract is a problem. There are teams looking for D, even top 4, but it's finding someone who thinks he can be everyday top 4 for them. He's also got a modified ntc. During Berg's tenure, I'd say 3 contracts have been his biggest mistakes - Desharnais, Emelin, and the Plekanec extension. |
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Post by seventeen on Feb 10, 2016 12:42:01 GMT -5
During Berg's tenure, I'd say 3 contracts have been his biggest mistakes - Desharnais, Emelin, and the Plekanec extension. Not counting his coaching choices, you mean? |
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Post by blny on Feb 10, 2016 12:58:27 GMT -5
During Berg's tenure, I'd say 3 contracts have been his biggest mistakes - Desharnais, Emelin, and the Plekanec extension. Not counting his coaching choices, you mean? Therrien's extension, sure, but his initial hiring still isn't as bad as those deals imo. |
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Post by seventeen on Feb 10, 2016 14:32:38 GMT -5
There's a really old saying, "The desire for Therrien is the root of all evil". If Boucher were coach, I suspect we'd see better useage of those guys, but yes, they were contracts that didn't need to be made at the time. I'd have wanted more proof that those players could deliver at that contract price. DD, especially, is not living up to that number, and he's so spooked he's having trouble even with wide open shots.
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Post by franko on Feb 10, 2016 15:08:44 GMT -5
he's so spooked he's having trouble even with wide open shots. unfortunately, he's not the only one. therein lies the problem: lack of goals has done us in. iirc, Weiss had more than his share at the beginning of the season, and the bottom lines were doing better than expected as well. MT is right -- you need three goals a game to have a hope of winning, and the Habs scored 2 or less in 10 of the 13 games this new year before the weekend. |
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