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Post by CentreHice on Jan 30, 2020 19:48:17 GMT -5
Yes, any team will falter with chronic, lousy goalkeeping.
But Washington and Tampa have elite players. Great goaltending is their FINAL piece. With the Habs, it's been our ONLY piece, by and large.
The GM mantra used to be: build from the goalie out.
Wouldn't that model have changed since the salary cap and draft lottery came into play? i.e. You can't buy your top players, and even a bottom finish doesn't guarantee the #1 pick.
Now, more than ever, competence in the GM office is key...and should outweigh any other requirement.
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Post by Skilly on Jan 30, 2020 20:50:03 GMT -5
This team is full of holes ... we are terrible in almost every stats but 2 and they are two that may have surprised most at the beginning of the season
If I said at the beginning of the season that Montreal would have the 13th ranked PP and for much of the year be a top ten PP AND have the 5th best SF/SA differential ... almost everyone would have said MTL was a playoff team
However, as I am apt to say, players don’t develop linearly and just because you increase scoring in one area, doesn’t mean the other area stay constant
This team is 18th in GF per game It is 23rd in goals against It is 22nd in SA per game It is 21st in Save percentage
Oh... and we lead the league in SHOTS on goal. Yes, Virginia we need finishers
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Post by frozone on Jan 30, 2020 21:00:09 GMT -5
Yes, any team will falter with chronic, lousy goalkeeping. But Washington and Tampa have elite players. Great goaltending is their FINAL piece. With the Habs, it's been our ONLY piece, by and large. The GM mantra used to be: build from the goalie out. Wouldn't that model have changed since the salary cap and draft lottery came into play? i.e. You can't buy your top players, and even a bottom finish doesn't guarantee the #1 pick. Now, more than ever, competence in the GM office is key...and should outweigh any other requirement. Yes, the model should have changed. And I want a GM that can create a plan designed to win in today's NHL. But the question that I was trying to resolve was whether we should tank next season. And even with a competent GM, I would be hesitant to tank 2020-21. As long as we have the "best goalie in the world", isn't it unlikely that we'll tank successfully? You'd have to think the likelihood is very low that Price has another horrendous seasons back to back. If we commit to the tank and Price puts in a .920 campaign next year, we'll finish just outside the playoffs. Again. And it will hurt worse than finishing last in the league. And I don't want to do what the Leafs did if it means we'll have elite players and still won't be a playoff team. Whatever Boston is doing, give me that instead.
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Post by folatre on Jan 30, 2020 22:14:44 GMT -5
What you are saying is certainly valid. I really do not look at it as planning to tank in 2020-21. The reality is that a whole bunch of guys who are above average NHL players are set to be UFAs in the next 18 months and they are going to sign deals in the 4-6 year range. In other words, it is not so much about whether or not it would be nice to have a lot of these guys for the next two or three years. Sure it would nice because, for example, Tatar is a productive left wing and Petry is a big minute-eater who generates offense from his position. But the problem is that is not an option. Instead, in each individual case, management has to decide: i) get the best return possible for a piece that is not going to fit in a realistic window of contending; ii) let the player walk for nothing; iii) commit significant dollars and term.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 31, 2020 4:46:45 GMT -5
What you are saying is certainly valid. I really do not look at it as planning to tank in 2020-21. The reality is that a whole bunch of guys who are above average NHL players are set to be UFAs in the next 18 months and they are going to sign deals in the 4-6 year range. In other words, it is not so much about whether or not it would be nice to have a lot of these guys for the next two or three years. Sure it would nice because, for example, Tatar is a productive left wing and Petry is a big minute-eater who generates offense from his position. But the problem is that is not an option. Instead, in each individual case, management has to decide: i) get the best return possible for a piece that is not going to fit in a realistic window of contending; ii) let the player walk for nothing; iii) commit significant dollars and term. You know when MB and CJ get together point iii above will be the decision... MB built thus team and its perfect just the way it is... injuries derailed the season... didn't you know?
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jan 31, 2020 9:37:06 GMT -5
What you are saying is certainly valid. I really do not look at it as planning to tank in 2020-21. The reality is that a whole bunch of guys who are above average NHL players are set to be UFAs in the next 18 months and they are going to sign deals in the 4-6 year range. In other words, it is not so much about whether or not it would be nice to have a lot of these guys for the next two or three years. Sure it would nice because, for example, Tatar is a productive left wing and Petry is a big minute-eater who generates offense from his position. But the problem is that is not an option. Instead, in each individual case, management has to decide: i) get the best return possible for a piece that is not going to fit in a realistic window of contending; ii) let the player walk for nothing; iii) commit significant dollars and term. You know when MB and CJ get together point iii above will be the decision... MB built thus team and its perfect just the way it is... injuries derailed the season... didn't you know? You are what your record says you are.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jan 31, 2020 17:19:14 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on Jan 31, 2020 19:01:10 GMT -5
Suzuki is also the only one given a real opportunity, but don’t get too excited about him yet. This was the same story last year with KK , and Galchenyuk has a great start as well .. it takes about a year for Habs coaching to really screw with the youth talent
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Post by duster on Jan 31, 2020 20:20:55 GMT -5
Isn't this the approach that got Julien fired here the first time, in Boston and New Jersey? I have this memory of Julien playing Kostitsyn for just 39 seconds during a game.
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Post by seventeen on Jan 31, 2020 21:11:07 GMT -5
Suzuki is also the only one who has a direct tie in to Bergevin. The other kids were all drafted by Timmins. Yes, this is a conspiracy theory thing, but you look at the guys to whom Julien has given opportunities and ice time....Cousins, Weal, Thompson, Weise, Kovalchuk, Suzuki, Armia, Drouin, Tatar, Domi. All acquired in the last 1.5 years or sooner. Some of these guys have earned their ice time...others not so much. Who has 'suffered"? Fleury, Kotkaniemi, Poehling. Who has been put in positions to succeed? Who has been entrusted? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm not embellishing this stuff . It's factual.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 1, 2020 9:01:23 GMT -5
Just fire everyone already.
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Post by jkr on Feb 1, 2020 9:07:03 GMT -5
Suzuki is also the only one who has a direct tie in to Bergevin. The other kids were all drafted by Timmins. Yes, this is a conspiracy theory thing, but you look at the guys to whom Julien has given opportunities and ice time....Cousins, Weal, Thompson, Weise, Kovalchuk, Suzuki, Armia, Drouin, Tatar, Domi. All acquired in the last 1.5 years or sooner. Some of these guys have earned their ice time...others not so much. Who has 'suffered"? Fleury, Kotkaniemi, Poehling. Who has been put in positions to succeed? Who has been entrusted? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm not embellishing this stuff . It's factual. They were drafted by Timmins but Bergevin is in charge & has the final say. They are his guys too.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 1, 2020 11:51:44 GMT -5
I don't think he feels the same investment or attachment to the drafted guys. In the clips we've seen on tv about the Habs draft table, Bergevin is often questioning Timmins about one player or another. He has a fuzzy idea of these guys, but it's the traded guys he's attached to. That's only a a partial criticism of him. I want him to know more about the kids, but he's probably not the only GM who lets the Director of Scouting control the drafting. I'm just making the point it's much more personal to him, having the guys he acquired, succeed. If Julien wants to sit a kid, it's unlikely Bergevin will question it, and if his philosophy is the same (vets don't make mistakes, kids do), then he'll support the benching.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 16, 2020 12:32:21 GMT -5
How does MB keep his job?
When was the last time the Habs were BELOW .500 AT HOME for the season?
How many gms have kept their job in the modern era when their team missed the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons? I don't even think expansion team gms are given that latitude.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 16, 2020 12:52:29 GMT -5
How does MB keep his job? When was the last time the Habs were BELOW .500 AT HOME for the season? How many gms have kept there job in the modern era when their team missed the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons? I don't even think expansion team gms are given that latitude. Goeffeys still making money and there is no bilingual GM available so we are stuck with him. The only reason MTHead got the boot was CJ became available, how much longer would MT have stayed around if the Bruins didnt fire CJ. L'Affaire Cunneyworth will haunt this team as long as the owner remains afraid of the media and the media backlashlash if a unilingual english GM is brought in. This is our future... get used to it...
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 16, 2020 15:14:01 GMT -5
I don't think he feels the same investment or attachment to the drafted guys. In the clips we've seen on tv about the Habs draft table, Bergevin is often questioning Timmins about one player or another. He has a fuzzy idea of these guys, but it's the traded guys he's attached to. That's only a a partial criticism of him. I want him to know more about the kids, but he's probably not the only GM who lets the Director of Scouting control the drafting. I'm just making the point it's much more personal to him, having the guys he acquired, succeed. If Julien wants to sit a kid, it's unlikely Bergevin will question it, and if his philosophy is the same (vets don't make mistakes, kids do), then he'll support the benching. The clown known as Bbinz may let the scouts RECOMMEND which players to draft, but it's the GMs job to make the decision. From what i saw in the video clips around the drafting table, Bbinz absolutely reminds me of incompetent sons taking over and winging it through meetings. In no way does it appear of a manager with any gravitas. These kinds of "managers" are very good at appearances, "pass the chips" but pure garbage on making "thought though" decisions. We are in the era of "The Clown$". Period.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 16, 2020 15:14:56 GMT -5
A few more years if this and fans will be clamoring for a Unilingual Martian if they can produce a winner.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 16, 2020 15:27:01 GMT -5
A few more years if this and fans will be clamoring for a Unilingual Martian if they can produce a winner. Good luck with that. Vested intetest will never let the language issue drop. EVER. And Mol$on is not really concerned about winning as he is concerned about money. Hartman Molson he is NOT. Just remember the lesson we are learning right now.....a couple of "language warriors" with a piece of plywood in front of the DingDong Center can bring the media locust on Mol$ons head...and he will never let that happen....at any cost.
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Post by habsask on Feb 16, 2020 18:30:33 GMT -5
With the current group of owners it's ALL and ONLY about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
So for meaningful improvement to occur there are only four possibilities:
1) there is a radical change in ownership where the controlling interest is vested in a single owner with deep pockets who not only wants to make money but who actually really cares about winning a Cup. Prognosis - will not happen as long as the current group of owners are happy about their profit margin. Which leads to option #2...
2) the fans care enough about winning a Cup to stay away from supporting the team with attendance, viewing, buying team merchandise which I do not see happening to a significant degree or...
3) Baby Face Molson is soooo embarrassed by the Habs missing the playoffs buy a lot that he fires MB and gets lucky hiring the next GM or....
4) his wife goes nuclear about the teams fortunes, mountains a massive and sustained nattering assault, sleeps in a separate bedroom and locks the door and wears a Chastity Belt to fight off sneak nuptial attacks by Hubby. And for good measure hires some private dicks to follow hubby around day and night in case he's getting some somewhere else so she can publicly sue his ass off if he does.
Some list of possibilities.
Have a happy evening.
Mr. Skeptical signing off.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 16, 2020 19:21:30 GMT -5
Fans are staying away... I am seeing discounted ticket ads all over the place... when was the last time the Habs had to have discounted tickets? Something is off, Molson knows it and there is no hiding the stench.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 16, 2020 19:23:53 GMT -5
I'm ready to have MB replaced by McGuire... at least McGuire will blow it up and start from scratch. And I can guarantee you our amateur and professional scouting will get a lot better because that is one thing McGuire does is watch a lot of hockey.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 16, 2020 19:28:26 GMT -5
As long as she's in furs and martinis I doubt #4 has much chance of happening. Besides, he's 48 and they probably each have friends with benefits. #3 is uniikely. If he isn't embarrassed enough by now, it's too late. #1 is also unlikely until they've milked the cash cow dry and stolen all the golden goose's eggs. That could take a while......unless:
Option #2. The Beauty of this option is that Molson and Bergevin have absolutely no control over it. It's all in our hands. So simple Difficult? Yes, because far too many fans have blinders and are part of PT Barnum's army. So it's a matter of education, boys and girls. Spread the message. Habs are dull and not worth spending any money on. Not a shekel or a ruble or a Euro or a penny. Nada. But we could have a pool to see how long it takes to have an effect. I'm in.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Feb 16, 2020 21:07:23 GMT -5
I'm ready to have MB replaced by McGuire... at least McGuire will blow it up and start from scratch. And I can guarantee you our amateur and professional scouting will get a lot better because that is one thing McGuire does is watch a lot of hockey. Not McGuire. Look at Beaudreau’s record and he was fired. Does that woman from Kotkaniemi draft know how to speak French. She would be an upgrade on Bergevin. The flying Frenchmen are now the failing Frenchmen. I idolized Senator Hartland Molson. His offspring that inherited his toy is not a hockey man. The team takes time away from selling condos and running a brewery.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 16, 2020 21:20:27 GMT -5
I'm ready to have MB replaced by McGuire... at least McGuire will blow it up and start from scratch. And I can guarantee you our amateur and professional scouting will get a lot better because that is one thing McGuire does is watch a lot of hockey. Not McGuire. Look at Beaudreau’s record and he was fired. Does that woman from Kotkaniemi draft know how to speak French. She would be an upgrade on Bergevin. The flying Frenchmen are now the failing Frenchmen. I idolized Senator Hartland Molson. His offspring that inherited his toy is not a hockey man. The team takes time away from selling condos and running a brewery. Its either the status quo with MB or McGuire... there is no one else.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 16, 2020 23:36:52 GMT -5
The flying Frenchmen are now the failing Frenchmen. More like the Flying Henchmen. Need a job? Friend of Marc's? Step right up.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 16, 2020 23:37:26 GMT -5
Not McGuire. Look at Beaudreau’s record and he was fired. Does that woman from Kotkaniemi draft know how to speak French. She would be an upgrade on Bergevin. The flying Frenchmen are now the failing Frenchmen. I idolized Senator Hartland Molson. His offspring that inherited his toy is not a hockey man. The team takes time away from selling condos and running a brewery. Its either the status quo with MB or McGuire... there is no one else. I'd be willing to take a flyer on Bobby Smith.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 17, 2020 0:32:26 GMT -5
I know people will point to the pipeline of prospects and the trades Bergevin has 'won' over the last 18 months and say better times are ahead, but this management team really is messed up. In my mind, it all started with the Subban trade. That was the trigger for Bergevin changing the team from "someone else's" to "his". Markov's rejection followed the next summer, then Pacioretty. We can't say it was a misguided strategy, but it was executed poorly. One of the recurring themes in my criticism of Bergevin is what I believe is his lack of judgment which is probably affected by what I would call some core cheapness. He simply doesn't like paying the going price. It has to be a bargain for him and its not a surprise that he's picked up that nickname. Part of the rationale for the Subban trade was his contract. It wasn't necessarily bad value. Yes, there were other things that played a role but he hated being overruled by Molson 2 years earlier. Berg and Therrien hated Subban. Some of that may have been justified but not all. I won't go as far back as his judgment in hiring Therrien or Lefebvre (core errors in judgment), but then he decided Alzner was a better value than Markov and he didn't want to pay Radulov. That was especially annoying to me because he simply couldn't be honest. Whatever the Radulov camp started out with, Bergevin had an offer of Dallas' that he had to match. He says he did, but he didn't. When there's a million dollars or so difference to Radulov's pocket, it's not the same offer. If Bergevin had said, "I just didn't want to pay the $7.5MM I would have to pay to match", then I think we'd understand. We might disagree, since it's not our money but at least he wouldn't by lying to us. Why the insistence on a farce when it's obvious it wasn't an equal offer? He insists his best move was the Weber deal. I think you'd find a lot of disagreement on that point. I won't debate whether PK is better or not. He was better the first 2 years and Weber scored more the next 2 years. Injuries have come into play as well. What I take umbrage with is the fact that it's clear as hell that the Danault trade was Bergevin's best. By a country mile. He got Danault, one of the best 2 way centres in hockey and a draft choice that has become Alex Romanov, for basically nothing. Yet he's adamant that the Weber deal was the best. He wants it to be the best. It won't be, but I think it's his defining trade and for his own ego, he NEEDS it be #1. The last point I'll make is his offer sheet to Sebastian Aho. He gathered his entire brain trust together and they came up with a package they said would put pressure on the Canes. They thought a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft choices was fair value for Aho. There are probably a million hockey fans (seriously, at least a million) who would have told you that was silly. Right now, Sebastian Aho has 33 goals and 56 points in 58 games. This is a ppg player who is 22 years old and is going to get better and all Bergevin was willing to pay was one pick in each of the first 3 rounds. That's the ultimate in bad judgment. And in cheapness. I made a few posts before the offer sheet saying this was a singular opportunity for the Habs to take a real jump in talent level without it costing any current players and plugging that hole in our centre line-up. They made a dog's breakfast out of it. No, some dog's breakfasts are better than that offer. All I could think of is "What the hell were THEY thinking? How dumb can you be?" Unless of course, it was just a p.r. exercise.
It has to be all about the money because his hockey management has been bad. Completely unworthy of men like Selke, Pollock and Serge.
This is the guy that we now expect to make sensible judgements at another critical junction. He's been rebuilding while trying to make the playoffs. Not going all in one way or the other. Trying to win now with this current base is dumb. You couldn't get a difference make by offering the prospects Montreal has, or if you did, it's still tenuous because there are so many holes to plug in the current line-up. The only real choice is to rebuild fully and that means trading some veterans and setting your sights on 3 years from now at least. It's a seller's market. Jason Zucker returned a pretty good defense prospect (probably grade out to an A or A-) and a 1st round pick. Blake Coleman has gotten NJ a 2019 first round Nolan Foote (probably an A- prospect) and a first round pick. What could Tomas Tatar get the Habs? Someone like Thomas Harley from Dallas and a first rounder? Harley is an 18 year old LHD with 51 points in 51 games for Mississauga in the OHL. Would Colorado give up Alex Newhook and a first or Alex Newhook and Connor Timmiins? What could you get for Gallagher? I'm loathe to trade Petry, but since Weber is injured and Petry is 32, what could he fetch you? Something like the Rangers got for McDonagh? Maybe something just a little less? A Grade A prospect for sure and another first rounder. What are the odds we get a difference maker out of this draft if we have 3 first round picks this year?
So much at stake the next week or so.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 17, 2020 8:17:19 GMT -5
Its either the status quo with MB or McGuire... there is no one else. I'd be willing to take a flyer on Bobby Smith. Absolutely but I didn't think Bobby was bilingual... how about Damphouse as PoHO
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Post by mikeg on Feb 17, 2020 9:33:33 GMT -5
Assuming no changes are made, the group below is the group that would start next year (the age they will be next year is in brackets). On paper it is a good mix of young and old. With reinforcements (listed below them) coming up. We have an abundance of centers and are well stocked on the right side, our defensive depth is a big hole and I think that is the place that Bergevin will need to address most in the draft and free agency.
But my main point here is that our core is pretty much established. We have guys who should be in their primes or hitting their primes with a pipeline coming in to relieve and support them. The one spot we can afford to "sacrifice" right now is at center. As much as I like Domi, he is probably the most expendable piece we have right now that could return us something of value without messing with the potential to compete next year. I get that everyone wants to trade Tatar and Petry but the reality is we have no one to replace them and no hope of landing someone like them in free agency or the draft. They still play well and are under contract so I would not trade them, but Domi... well his contract staus for next year versus what he will get make him someone I would not invest too heavily in. I just don't know if we could get any sort of return for him. As well, Bergy just does not have the stones to make that trade because he shipped out Chucky to get his big character and attitude prize in return, so fat chance methinks.
The reality is the pieces we would have to sell to get something like a first and/or high end prospect are not pieces that I personally want to sell. Nothing we get in return for those guys will be better than who they are now and the next few years.
For the rest of the season I would just rest all my old guys, play the kids who never play, and keep tanking in the hopes of landing the one thing that will truly help the franchise reboot... that 1st overall pick.
Tatar (30) / Dannault (27) / Gallagher (28) Drouin (25) / Domi (25) / Armia (27) Kovalchuk (37) / Suzuki (21) / Lehkonen (25) Cousins (27) / Thompson (36) / Byron (31)
Chiarot (29) / Weber (35) Petry (33) / Mete (22) Scandella (30) / Kulak (26)
Price (33)
Reinforcements
Kotkaniemi (c) (20) Poehling (c) (21) Evans (c) (24) Caufield (rw) (19) Ylonen (rw) (21) Romanov (d) (20) Fleury (d) (22) Brook (d) (21) Struble (d) (19) Primeau (g) (21)
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Post by Boston_Habs on Feb 17, 2020 11:00:49 GMT -5
So much at stake the next week or so. Which scares. Maybe Berg will be decent enough to do what Pierre Gauthier did on his way out the door, which was to clear the decks for the next GM and pick up some extra picks/prospects for the rebuild. I have no problem with Berg dealing the likes of Petry and/or Tatar for the best package. I'm more concerned about him dealing away one of our prime prospects for the simple reason that I don't trust his judgement about which ones to keep and which ones to deal. I'd rather leave that to the next guy.
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