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Post by CentreHice on Sept 3, 2020 14:53:41 GMT -5
I'm ok with Allen, I was hoping we'd be getting some assets to take on that cap rather than giving up a pick. That being said, Berg has gone the cheap route with backups and it's cost us playoff spots in the past, so getting a legit NHL goalie is a win. I could even see us extending him during the year, so we have a signed goalie to expose in the expansion draft. Heck, a legit signed NHL goalie might well be of interest. --- My secret hope was actually that we'd get Fleury with some retention. Oh well. Agree. Allen should provide more rest for Price with little drop in goalie stats. A bubble team (on the rise, hopefully) can't afford to lose points due to second-tier backups. Then again, can 3rd stringer Hutchinson pull off an Avs' comeback vs. Dallas?
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 3, 2020 15:48:59 GMT -5
I'm ok with Allen, I was hoping we'd be getting some assets to take on that cap rather than giving up a pick. That being said, Berg has gone the cheap route with backups and it's cost us playoff spots in the past, so getting a legit NHL goalie is a win. I could even see us extending him during the year, so we have a signed goalie to expose in the expansion draft. Heck, a legit signed NHL goalie might well be of interest. --- My secret hope was actually that we'd get Fleury with some retention. Oh well. Before Allen trade I was thinking Corey Crawford in UFA. On 2 or 3 year deal, around 4 or 5 million. Reuniting him with Waite would put him back to top of his game. Be able to trade Crawford next summer for big return. When Primeau was ready. Or, 2 summers from now, if case no minor league season next year Primeau may not be ready. But run risk Crawford may sign elsewhere. Best to go with Allen.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 3, 2020 17:02:02 GMT -5
I think the Allen deal is another in Bergevin’s list of good deals that don’t achieve much other than making him look good. First if all picking up Allen is a very solid move. Should play well when he’s not under the pressure of being No. 1. He will allow Price sufficient rest and allow Primeau to develop in Laval. So, all good. Then why do I think this confirms my opinion of Berg as a second rate GM.
Well, a good question to start with is, “How long has it been important for Carey to be well rested?” Four, five years? Longer? Problem solved...a few years too late. This raises the question of what other issues need improving which will take a few years to correct and once those are fixed, what other problems will have popped up in the interim because it took years to fix those other matters? We never seem to get ahead of things. The LHD is the next immediate problem and we had a solution for that once. If Romanov, Struble etc can solve the LHD weakness in a couple of years, then Weber and Petry will be at the end and RHD might be an issue. And so on. Berg is making sensible moves without really getting to a point.
I love to compare. Sakic was considered an idiot a few years ago. But his team has matured, together, and with more on the horizon. Sakic’s like a chef who makes sure everyone’s order comes together, fresh and hot, at the same time. Berg’s meals take longer because those at the table are served 10 minutes apart. Every one gats a tasty meal but the evening feels wasted.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 3, 2020 17:05:28 GMT -5
If we need a 4.5 million dollar goalie to play 30-40 games to give poor ol Carey a rest. Than the obvious solution is to get rid of poor ol Carey and get two 4.5 million dollar goalies
As for Kinkaid, or Niemi costing us playoff spots ... ahhhh No.
Kinkaid barely played, he wasn’t getting us 20 more points this year ,
And Niemi? He lost 6 games. Maybe one was on him . But for every game someone points to Niemi costing us, I can point to two where we couldn't score or Carey was below average.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 3, 2020 18:05:32 GMT -5
I wasn’t going to get into the $15mm budget in goaltending. The main issue there is the one contract for $10.5 and if it makes any sense to build around a goalie. Most teams don’t. SC winning teams don’t. And the scoring is one of the issues that has been around for years and remains unsolved. All part for a different thread and theme perhaps. On its own and to address a weak BU goal for 1 year its a good solution. I just don’t think we should applaud a GM for fixing an obvious problem and one that is easy to fix. He’s avoided the difficult ones for years. Looking back it gets even more ridiculous. Pleks and DD as you top 2 centres for several seasons? Seriously? And yes. There it is in the history books.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 3, 2020 18:55:07 GMT -5
I think the Allen deal is another in Bergevin’s list of good deals that don’t achieve much other than making him look good. First if all picking up Allen is a very solid move. Should play well when he’s not under the pressure of being No. 1. He will allow Price sufficient rest and allow Primeau to develop in Laval. So, all good. Then why do I think this confirms my opinion of Berg as a second rate GM. Well, a good question to start with is, “How long has it been important for Carey to be well rested?” Four, five years? Longer? Problem solved...a few years too late. This raises the question of what other issues need improving which will take a few years to correct and once those are fixed, what other problems will have popped up in the interim because it took years to fix those other matters? We never seem to get ahead of things. The LHD is the next immediate problem and we had a solution for that once. If Romanov, Struble etc can solve the LHD weakness in a couple of years, then Weber and Petry will be at the end and RHD might be an issue. And so on. Berg is making sensible moves without really getting to a point. I love to compare. Sakic was considered an idiot a few years ago. But his team has matured, together, and with more on the horizon. Sakic’s like a chef who makes sure everyone’s order comes together, fresh and hot, at the same time. Berg’s meals take longer because those at the table are served 10 minutes apart. Every one gats a tasty meal but the evening feels wasted. It depends... Is Bbinz building a winner? Taking risks to get there? Or trying to make moves so we are "good enough" to make it in the playoffs? Bbinz may be a great guy in life....but i despise his tenure as GM. I'm too old to wait for a ANOTHER 5 year plan in a few years because Price and Weber are old and marginal.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 3, 2020 19:09:01 GMT -5
The secret to a good back-up, is to have an explosive offense.
The teams that look like they have a great back-up, are putting their back-up into the games they expect to win. In other words the easy games. The games against teams they know they will out score, regardless of who is in net. Think about it, his many times the past 2-3 years have MTL played against the back up or a rookie or someone got their first win against us? Too many. We ARE the easy win , simply because everyone knows we can't score .. So, who cares if we have Carey Pricecin net. They are bank on scoring 2 or 3 goals against Price, knowing full well, our rag tag lineup doesn't have the horses to score that much against even their back up.
As for our back-up. Yes we have a good pick up. But how good? Based on the past three seasons, we are looking at about 32-34 points from him if he gets into 30 games.
That means, in the other 52, Price need to get 70 points just to get 94 points ...so he'd need what? 74-76 points to get in as a #6 seed ... That's asking Price to go 38-14 in those 52 games ... That's including the loser points too ...because whether its 38-14, or 36-14-2 ..it still amounts to how do we get those 74-76 points.
Realistically, to take the "pressure" off Price, Allen is going to have to go 20-10 in his 30 games, so Price only needs 60 points in his 52 games ....then, we might have a goalie controversy. It's the ol catch 22. If we have a back up that plays great, what do we need Price for??
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 4, 2020 0:13:56 GMT -5
Yup! And what makes it even dumber is that there will be goalies all over the market this off-season, so it is a buyer's market. And as usual MB is paying way too much for a back-up goalie who could easily regress. Let's see how much other goalies will be getting but I'm not sold on Allen being the great back up and I'm certainly not sold on paying a back up that kind of money. If we need a back up so badly because they will be required to play so many games given the condensed season then play one of the prospects. They won't be sitting around as usual for back ups but getting regular starts. I'm predicting another Alzner-like bust. At least we'll only be stuck for one season with the salary but we will have lost an opportunity to improve this team's offence before Weber and Carey fade away. What goalie would you sign? I'm not sure we need to sign any back up. It may be that goalies currently in our system will do, particularly if we have more offence so these back ups, and Carey, can afford to give up a few more goals than they've been allowed to over the past few years with our anemic forwards. I want our coveted cap space going to top 6 forwards who can score, not paying some back up to play 25 games to help us pick up a net gain of maybe 6-8 points over goalies currently in our system. And for those who say that might be the difference in making the playoffs, I simply say that you're buying MB's "anything can happen" strategy. No thanks! We should be making this team a contender not squeaking into the playoffs, particularly as we had a huge cap space advantage. One should also keep in mind that it is likely that this season will not only be condensed but likely much less than 82 games - perhaps only 50 or 60. In that case how many games will the Allen be playing? Without Allen we have Lindgren, McNiven and Primeau. Lindgren is a FA at the end of next year so shouldn't we see if he's up to it before he goes. McNiven just turned 23 and seemed to be on a good progression in the AHL. And Primeau is 21 and looks like a stud - let's get him some NHL experience and learn from Carey. No doubt some will say we can't have McNiven or Primeau playing such few games as it may stunt their development. But the one huge wild card in all this is whether the AHL will even have a season this year. If the answer is no then it is a no brainer to have these guys with the big club both practicing and getting into games. Assuming one is determined to go outside the organization for a back up, this is a buyer's market. According to TSN pending free agent goalies include Jacob Markstrom, Robin Lehner, Braden Holtby, Anton Khudobin, Thomas Greiss, Corey Crawford, Cam Talbot, Mike Smith, Brian Elliott, Jimmy Howard, Ryan Miller, Craig Anderson, Laurent Brossoit and Aaron Dell. And goaltenders on the trade market, including pending RFA with arbitration rights Matt Murray, Marc-Andre Fleury, Frederik Andersen, Henrik Lundqvist, Antti Raanta and one of Columbus’ two golaies, Joonas Korpisalo or Elvis Merzlikins. Most of these goalies are better than Allen, many are no doubt starters but many will not be getting $4.5 million when the dust settles with all the teams struggling with cap space. Why MB is first to wade into the market is beyond me. And who knows, given Crawford and Fleury have won cups and are on their down slope, perhaps they would give a hometown discount to wear the CH jersey before they retire. Bottom line: there were loads of options if one wanted to go outside the organization that would be better than Allen and perhaps even cheaper. But more importantly, I don't think we needed to go outside if MB would finally get some top end talent up front.
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Post by franko on Sept 4, 2020 6:05:39 GMT -5
Assuming one is determined to go outside the organization for a back up, this is a buyer's market. According to TSN pending free agent goalies include Jacob Markstrom, Robin Lehner, Braden Holtby, Anton Khudobin, Thomas Greiss, Corey Crawford, Cam Talbot, Mike Smith, Brian Elliott, Jimmy Howard, Ryan Miller, Craig Anderson, Laurent Brossoit and Aaron Dell. And goaltenders on the trade market, including pending RFA with arbitration rights Matt Murray, Marc-Andre Fleury, Frederik Andersen, Henrik Lundqvist, Antti Raanta and one of Columbus’ two golaies, Joonas Korpisalo or Elvis Merzlikins. Most of these goalies are better than Allen, many are no doubt starters but many will not be getting $4.5 million when the dust settles with all the teams struggling with cap space. I humbly disagree with your assessment that "most" are better than Allen. Those that are will be retained by their teams (Markstrom) and will be paid for it; those that aren't will either be paid or are just more reclamation projects a la Kincaid (you'd do Talbot part deux? There's a reason that the Flames wouldn't resign him). Though I'd take Korpisal or Merzlikens.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 4, 2020 7:56:34 GMT -5
Found an interesting tweet... didnt think we had this much cap space left... granted we need more players
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Post by folatre on Sept 4, 2020 8:33:17 GMT -5
For sure, the Habs will no doubt carry a 23 man roster because of what promises to be a condensed schedule. The reality is Bergevin would have about $9 million to play with, though obviously if Domi stays then he eats up more than half of that figure.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 4, 2020 11:10:22 GMT -5
Maybe there is a silver lining....if Allen is really a starter, can carry the team close to the level of what Price can do AND Primeau is close to NHL ready....then trade Price or leave him unprotected.
Bbinz needs to know there is no harm in dropping some Pollock dandruff....
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 4, 2020 11:12:27 GMT -5
For sure, the Habs will no doubt carry a 23 man roster because of what promises to be a condensed schedule. The reality is Bergevin would have about $9 million to play with, though obviously if Domi stays then he eats up more than half of that figure. Or we offer sheet 10 mil to Dubois.....and trade Domi for LSD....i mean LHD.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 4, 2020 12:52:20 GMT -5
Hell, I'd trade Domi for LSD.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 4, 2020 14:28:46 GMT -5
For sure, the Habs will no doubt carry a 23 man roster because of what promises to be a condensed schedule. The reality is Bergevin would have about $9 million to play with, though obviously if Domi stays then he eats up more than half of that figure. I imagine possible condensed schedule played a role in quick Allen trade. More back to back games.
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 2:03:12 GMT -5
If we need a 4.5 million dollar goalie to play 30-40 games to give poor ol Carey a rest. Than the obvious solution is to get rid of poor ol Carey and get two 4.5 million dollar goalies As for Kinkaid, or Niemi costing us playoff spots ... ahhhh No. Kinkaid barely played, he wasn’t getting us 20 more points this year , And Niemi? He lost 6 games. Maybe one was on him . But for every game someone points to Niemi costing us, I can point to two where we couldn't score or Carey was below average. Well, it's a chicken and egg problem: if the backup were better, Carey could get more rest, and Carey would be better. The deeper point that Carey is overpaid isn't in question, IMO. I'd actually call it Berg's biggest mistake, to date. That contract will be an albatross for years to come.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 8, 2020 10:17:00 GMT -5
If we need a 4.5 million dollar goalie to play 30-40 games to give poor ol Carey a rest. Than the obvious solution is to get rid of poor ol Carey and get two 4.5 million dollar goalies As for Kinkaid, or Niemi costing us playoff spots ... ahhhh No. Kinkaid barely played, he wasn’t getting us 20 more points this year , And Niemi? He lost 6 games. Maybe one was on him . But for every game someone points to Niemi costing us, I can point to two where we couldn't score or Carey was below average. Well, it's a chicken and egg problem: if the backup were better, Carey could get more rest, and Carey would be better. The deeper point that Carey is overpaid isn't in question, IMO. I'd actually call it Berg's biggest mistake, to date. That contract will be an albatross for years to come. His contract should be movable if Price ever wants out. I would think anyway. Most will be paid out in bonuses first 3 years. Last 5 year think average is around 6 million a year. Habs in position to retain Imagine there is chance he wants to play for a cup before career over. Solid chance he will want out.
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 10:56:13 GMT -5
Well, it's a chicken and egg problem: if the backup were better, Carey could get more rest, and Carey would be better. The deeper point that Carey is overpaid isn't in question, IMO. I'd actually call it Berg's biggest mistake, to date. That contract will be an albatross for years to come. His contract should be movable if Price ever wants out. I would think anyway. Most will be paid out in bonuses first 3 years. Last 5 year think average is around 6 million a year. Habs in position to retain Imagine there is chance he wants to play for a cup before career over. Solid chance he will want out. It's still a 10.5 cap hit until he's 39.... he might well be a serviceable platoon goalie until that age, but if he needs a guy to platoon with who costs 5+, it leads to needing 15M locked up in net. I've often said that contract will be a problem for both the Habs and Carey before it's halfway through - if Carey wants to move to a contender, but no one wants to take him without massive retention or some other added consideration for the acquiring team, everyone comes out badly. I love Carey but right now if we could move him with no salary retained, I'd seriously consider it. For a decent starter and a top 6 forward or top 4D, it's a done deal for me. If we'd signed him for 4 years at 9M, he'd still be the highest paid goalie, and he'd get another contract at 34, based on his actual value and performance at that point.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 8, 2020 13:07:52 GMT -5
His contract should be movable if Price ever wants out. I would think anyway. Most will be paid out in bonuses first 3 years. Last 5 year think average is around 6 million a year. Habs in position to retain Imagine there is chance he wants to play for a cup before career over. Solid chance he will want out. It's still a 10.5 cap hit until he's 39.... he might well be a serviceable platoon goalie until that age, but if he needs a guy to platoon with who costs 5+, it leads to needing 15M locked up in net. I've often said that contract will be a problem for both the Habs and Carey before it's halfway through - if Carey wants to move to a contender, but no one wants to take him without massive retention or some other added consideration for the acquiring team, everyone comes out badly. I love Carey but right now if we could move him with no salary retained, I'd seriously consider it. For a decent starter and a top 6 forward or top 4D, it's a done deal for me. If we'd signed him for 4 years at 9M, he'd still be the highest paid goalie, and he'd get another contract at 34, based on his actual value and performance at that point. But would Carey have signed a 4 year deal?
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 13:36:50 GMT -5
It's still a 10.5 cap hit until he's 39.... he might well be a serviceable platoon goalie until that age, but if he needs a guy to platoon with who costs 5+, it leads to needing 15M locked up in net. I've often said that contract will be a problem for both the Habs and Carey before it's halfway through - if Carey wants to move to a contender, but no one wants to take him without massive retention or some other added consideration for the acquiring team, everyone comes out badly. I love Carey but right now if we could move him with no salary retained, I'd seriously consider it. For a decent starter and a top 6 forward or top 4D, it's a done deal for me. If we'd signed him for 4 years at 9M, he'd still be the highest paid goalie, and he'd get another contract at 34, based on his actual value and performance at that point. But would Carey have signed a 4 year deal? Good point. All I know is that he got max term, and got just about the biggest yearly salary around. If someone had given Carey's agent a blank contract template, he couldn't have filled it out better himself.
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Sept 8, 2020 13:56:04 GMT -5
I agree that Cary's contract will become an anchor and he is overpaid but MB didn't have many options at the time. It is like we have said about Radulov, his 6 million in Dallas is 7.5 in Montreal. Had MB offered Cary 9 million for 5-6 years he would have opted to be an UFA and taken 8 million from someone else and be further ahead.
Pacioretty had wanted a max contract from Montreal but then quickly signed a 7 million dollar deal in Vegas. It is the sad price of doing business in Montreal, no pun intended.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 8, 2020 14:47:56 GMT -5
If Allen is the Real Deal not named Weal, I would offer him a mid term contract and leave Price exposed for Seattle. Of course. Chances are, Price would love it because it brings him closer to home...and we get rid if an albatross.
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 18:14:04 GMT -5
If Allen is the Real Deal not named Weal, I would offer him a mid term contract and leave Price exposed for Seattle. Of course. Chances are, Price would love it because it brings him closer to home...and we get rid if an albatross. Price has a NMC though, so he'd have to agree. And while going close to home might work for him, expansion teams don't tend to do well at first (LV is the exception, of course). I think moving him to Vancouver, Edmonton or Colorado would be more likely.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 8, 2020 19:53:45 GMT -5
If Allen is the Real Deal not named Weal, I would offer him a mid term contract and leave Price exposed for Seattle. Of course. Chances are, Price would love it because it brings him closer to home...and we get rid if an albatross. Price has a NMC though, so he'd have to agree. And while going close to home might work for him, expansion teams don't tend to do well at first (LV is the exception, of course). I think moving him to Vancouver, Edmonton or Colorado would be more likely. Can expansion teams talk to players on other teams? Can they if the players team allows it... like they would do if it a possible trade and a new contract?
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 20:49:51 GMT -5
Price has a NMC though, so he'd have to agree. And while going close to home might work for him, expansion teams don't tend to do well at first (LV is the exception, of course). I think moving him to Vancouver, Edmonton or Colorado would be more likely. Can expansion teams talk to players on other teams? Can they if the players team allows it... like they would do if it a possible trade and a new contract? I think if both teams agree that a player can talk, it's always possible.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 10, 2020 8:16:06 GMT -5
If Allen is the Real Deal not named Weal, I would offer him a mid term contract and leave Price exposed for Seattle. Of course. Chances are, Price would love it because it brings him closer to home...and we get rid if an albatross. Imagine playing on cup contender be a factor for Price. I would keep Price. Habs always well under cap anyway so his cap hit is no trouble us. We usually start the season hot as a fire crack then fade after first month or two. Once Price starts to tire. He played most games in NHL last season, 66 games season before but never looked it up see if it was most. But it should be. I think this Allen playing 30 games will work.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 14, 2020 8:35:33 GMT -5
Allen is what we needed. But think Habs paid full blown retail. I would take 4.3 million in UFA and keep 3rd pick. Should get one of best backups in game for 4.3 million. When Primeau is ready, I would flip that guy for another pick. Gives us 2 additional picks. I agree he overpaid. Should have held out for a 6th in 2024. This is not the way to Make The Hab’s Great Again!
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Post by folatre on Oct 14, 2020 12:12:24 GMT -5
I cannot believe that Bergevin just handed this guy two years beyond this upcoming season. $2.875 million in 2021-22 and $2.875 in 2022-23. That's gross.
Why worry about having a guy signed for 2022-23? I can see having a vet to expose in the expansion draft who is signed for 2021-22. But that second season is not good at all.
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Post by habsorbed on Oct 14, 2020 12:26:50 GMT -5
Wow! This is typical MB. Anyone he signs he believes is the second coming and so he self affirms his decision by signing longer term or paying more. The guy hasn't played a game for us yet and you give him a 3 year contract? This is just dumb. Particularly when one considers that MB has a terrible record finding Carey a decent back up. But Allen is the one I tell you. He's the one! Pretty sure.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Oct 14, 2020 12:44:20 GMT -5
Berg should have stopped while he was on a roll.
File this baby under the WTF file.
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