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Post by Bobs_HABit on May 19, 2023 12:06:18 GMT -5
Leafs parting ways with the boy wonder. Lots of turmoil in leaf-land. Couldn't happen to a nicer fan base. I'm spreading the news here in the GTA that they should look for a real experienced GM with some playoff success in Marc Bergevin  |
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Post by madhabber on May 19, 2023 12:26:43 GMT -5
Actually, they should check out Mike Milbury. He has experience contributing into building winners. Everywhere else but his own team, but let's not be fussy.
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Post by jkr on May 19, 2023 13:50:44 GMT -5
Yesterday TSN was making it sound like the Leafs wanted him back & were waiting for him to make up his mind. They also mentioned that Dubas might choose not to work elsewhere if he leaves Toronto.
Was it one of those situations where the guy says " you cant fire me, I quit."
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Post by seventeen on May 19, 2023 16:18:21 GMT -5
When he said all those things about family and how tough a year it's been for all of them and he needed time to think things through I was pretty sure he was not going to be rehired. An organization can't prepare for the following season while a GM deals with his work life balance and isn't at his desk. There's the draft, upcoming contracts, important decisions, UFA's etc, all arriving within 6 weeks. I happen to think he did a decent job of building the Leafs, and if Muzzin hadn't been injured, it might have made all the difference. Those Panthers would have paid a price to get in front of the net. But if those aforementioned things are important to you (and they should be), then you accept the consequences and move on. Trouble is, most other teams will want him at work right away too. I guess we'll see how many Leaf tattoos he really has and whether some of them wear out.
The Matthews contract is the big one to deal with. My solution has always been to let someone else worry about it. Trade the (blank) player, get a haul, reconfigure the team in the process and now you have the money to extend Nylander if you want to, and make other improvements. You might not be as good a regular season team (that's debatable anyways) but you'll win more playoff games. Face of the Franchise, my gluteus maximus.
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Post by Skilly on May 19, 2023 17:34:15 GMT -5
George McPhee
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Post by Willie Dog on May 19, 2023 18:16:25 GMT -5
The Matthews contract is the big one to deal with. My solution has always been to let someone else worry about it. Trade the (blank) player, get a haul, reconfigure the team in the process and now you have the money to extend Nylander if you want to, and make other improvements. You might not be as good a regular season team (that's debatable anyways) but you'll win more playoff games. Face of the Franchise, my gluteus maximus. I don't understand getting a haul for Matthews... he has been the invisible man in the playoffs for seven years, he has never lead any of his teams to victory... if a GM does give the leafs "a haul" then that GM will be very sorry... and so will their fanbase |
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Post by jkr on May 19, 2023 18:22:45 GMT -5
Was just watching That's Hockey. Looks like Dubas had an offer at the beginning of the week. Things went off the rails when his agent submitted a counter offer mid week. The terms of The counter offer seemed to sour Shanahan.
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Post by jkr on May 19, 2023 18:24:43 GMT -5
TSN also mentioned Treliving and Shero. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on May 20, 2023 14:39:30 GMT -5
I hope they find a replacement soon ... I'd hate to hear about this all summer ... Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 20, 2023 15:07:56 GMT -5
Is that the general consensus--that Dubas publicly used his "stressed family" as negotiating pawns?
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Post by CentreHice on May 20, 2023 16:42:25 GMT -5
Dangle's take...no praise for anyone involved. Contains Shanahan's presser.
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Post by jkr on May 20, 2023 18:45:55 GMT -5
TSN also reported that Spezza, whose title is special assistant to the GM, has resigned. I also heard that the Marlies fired their coaches after being swept.
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Post by Willie Dog on May 20, 2023 23:20:41 GMT -5
TSN also mentioned Treliving and Shero. Treliving can go on dragons den with his dad |
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Post by seventeen on May 21, 2023 2:04:33 GMT -5
Is that the general consensus--that Dubas publicly used his "stressed family" as negotiating pawns? The pundits' consensus (the balanced ones) don't think so. He seemed genuine in his presser about the stress on his family. Given the trolls that abound on the internet and the utter trash they spout, it's to be expected that anyone in his position is going to face that kind of tripe. There still seems to be some uncertainty over whether or not Dubas wanted more than the original agreement. If so, that would have been a sizeable factor. The reason for the decision as I see it, from a guy who worked in a middle management role for a large corporation, is that once you're in an executive position, you're life isn't your own anymore. I might have made it to that level if I had chosen to accept the what was required to get there, and then what was required to stay there. Wasn't my cup of tea. I probably gave up a lot of money staying in a lesser role, but it was also less stressful, and allowed for better balance between home and the office. Strive for the top and you're at the company's beck and call. If the boss wants you to be at a meeting across the country the next day, you have to be there, no matter that its your kids birthday. That's the price you pay. When Dubas suggested he might not accept that, the second guessing at the top floor began. It was already a coin flip as to whether or not to extend him and that comment didn't help his chances. Regardless of the potential reasons that will proliferate, it boils down, IMO, to control and what the bosses expect. Your answer always has to be "how high do you want me to jump?", or you're out of a job. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 21, 2023 9:01:16 GMT -5
According to Shanahan's presser.
You get an extension offer after the playoff exit. Then you go on TV and talk about the season-long stress on your family (the same family stress for anyone in that position--no violin strings, please) and say you don't know what the future holds.
You then have your agent make a counter offer...more $$. Then you email Shanahan saying you want to stay.
I think Dubas knew he'd overplayed his hand--hoping Shanahan wouldn't call his bluff.
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Post by folatre on May 21, 2023 17:06:13 GMT -5
My brother-in-law is a smart guy and not prone to hyperbole, though I am not quite sure where he distilled the numbers from. But he told me MLSE had approved 4 x 4 to keep Dubas in the GM chair. That would have placed Dubas comfortably in the top quintile among his peers. However, as was alluded to already in this thread, apparently what made Shanahan 'snap' was Dubas' agent coming back with significantly compensation demands after Shanahan believed they already had the basic contours of a deal agreed to.
Pittsburgh is not a big market club and they certainly do not sign off on the levels of spending the Leafs do in the non-cap controlled areas of hockey ops. So even if Dubas can snag that job, he is certainly not getting $4 million per. Maybe Dubas was conflicted about actually staying or maybe he always planned to stay and simply misread the negotiation (i.e. assumed the Board and Shanahan saw him as far more indispensable than they actually did).
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Post by Skilly on May 21, 2023 20:06:23 GMT -5
According to Shanahan's presser. You get an extension offer after the playoff exit. Then you go on TV and talk about the season-long stress on your family (the same family stress for anyone in that position--no violin strings, please) and say you don't know what the future holds. You then have your agent make a counter offer...more $$. Then you email Shanahan saying you want to stay. I think Dubas knew he'd overplayed his hand--hoping Shanahan wouldn't call his bluff. Shanahan specifically told Dubas to not have a presser until after the contract was finalized. Dubas had the presser anyway Why? Well if you look at the sequence of events during or after the presser you can only come to one conclusion Yes, Dubas used the strain on his family life to try to squeeze MLSE for more money. Why else counter offer the offer that was on the table AFTER you had a presser, a presser your boss said not to do. A presser you state you don’t know if you’ll be back , but it’s the only team you’ll work for. Then 24 hours after the presser you change your mind, but ask for more money. It was a ploy , plain and simple, and Shanahan (who I can’t stand) wasn’t playing that game |
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Post by jkr on May 21, 2023 20:50:17 GMT -5
Folatre, it's interesting that your brother in law has specific numbers. No one in the Toronto media has ever mentioned a number. The figures seem plausible but even the well connected people don't seem to know.
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Post by jkr on May 21, 2023 20:54:42 GMT -5
According to Shanahan's presser. You get an extension offer after the playoff exit. Then you go on TV and talk about the season-long stress on your family (the same family stress for anyone in that position--no violin strings, please) and say you don't know what the future holds. You then have your agent make a counter offer...more $$. Then you email Shanahan saying you want to stay. I think Dubas knew he'd overplayed his hand--hoping Shanahan wouldn't call his bluff. Shanahan specifically told Dubas to not have a presser until after the contract was finalized. Dubas had the presser anyway Why? Well if you look at the sequence of events during or after the presser you can only come to one conclusion Yes, Dubas used the strain on his family life to try to squeeze MLSE for more money. Why else counter offer the offer that was on the table AFTER you had a presser, a presser your boss said not to do. A presser you state you don’t know if you’ll be back , but it’s the only team you’ll work for. Then 24 hours after the presser you change your mind, but ask for more money. It was a ploy , plain and simple, and Shanahan (who I can’t stand) wasn’t playing that game This makes a lot of sense to me. What I don't understand is the family pressure argument. More money for Dubas won't make the pressure go away for the family. It might actually make it worse because if the team caved to your demands, they are going to expect a lot more. |
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Post by jkr on May 22, 2023 13:22:16 GMT -5
Just reading on Sportsnet that the Penguins have received permission to talk to Dubas. I thought he didn't want to work anywhere else.
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Post by seventeen on May 22, 2023 14:34:32 GMT -5
Just reading on Sportsnet that the Penguins have received permission to talk to Dubas. I thought he didn't want to work anywhere else. One can't help but recall John Scott's advice to other players: "Never trust a GM" or words to that effect. Might have been "Don't believe anything a GM says", but, distilled to it's essence, it's the same thing. Some GM's may try to be more straightforward than others, but as things change or as their owner's mood changes, or as their own greed increases (for money, power, whatever), their promises ain't worth the air they're breathed upon. |
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Post by Skilly on May 22, 2023 15:42:07 GMT -5
Shanahan specifically told Dubas to not have a presser until after the contract was finalized. Dubas had the presser anyway Why? Well if you look at the sequence of events during or after the presser you can only come to one conclusion Yes, Dubas used the strain on his family life to try to squeeze MLSE for more money. Why else counter offer the offer that was on the table AFTER you had a presser, a presser your boss said not to do. A presser you state you don’t know if you’ll be back , but it’s the only team you’ll work for. Then 24 hours after the presser you change your mind, but ask for more money. It was a ploy , plain and simple, and Shanahan (who I can’t stand) wasn’t playing that game This makes a lot of sense to me. What I don't understand is the family pressure argument. More money for Dubas won't make the pressure go away for the family. It might actually make it worse because if the team caved to your demands, they are going to expect a lot more. It’s a good point. But in every profession, people put up with more stress when given more money. I’m figuring Dubas and Shanahan were closing in on a number, Dubas questioned if it was worth the stress. Talked to his family, and then had his presser to show his “human side”. Then said to Shanahan, via a counter offer, hey I’m willing to stay, but tack on a million or two more and my family is happy. |
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Post by Tankdriver on May 22, 2023 19:05:47 GMT -5
I look at it as a my family life is taking a toll and I won't do the same job for the same money. I want more power, more money to stick around.
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Post by jkr on May 24, 2023 12:53:28 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on May 24, 2023 13:02:24 GMT -5
Sounds like the bean counters taking over again. Those guys destroy everything and yet companies keep giving them power. |
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Post by Willie Dog on May 24, 2023 18:46:51 GMT -5
Sounds like the bean counters taking over again. Those guys destroy everything and yet companies keep giving them power. As long as this happens in markets outside Montreal, I'm ok with this |
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Post by folatre on May 24, 2023 19:20:46 GMT -5
Meh, I think Doerrie is exaggerating a tad. No one spends more on the non cap-controlled spending than the Leafs and it is actually not even all that close. If their Board wants to scale it back a little here and there, then probably no quantum-shift in league expenditures is truly taking place.
The whole piece just comes across as someone who believes Dubas did a great job and therefore a corporate entity such as MLSE should just give him 4x5.5 even if the week before he agreed in principle with Shanahan on 4x4.
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Post by jkr on May 24, 2023 19:45:44 GMT -5
Where do those numbers come from? I haven't seen any thing in the Toronto media about it.
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Post by folatre on May 24, 2023 22:42:10 GMT -5
Jeje, I will throw my brother-in-law (Leafs fan) under the bus because he judges they are credible (though not 100 percent sure where he distilled them from). However, we all understand that these are not hard verifiable numbers because clubs are not required by the league to release compensation figures for non-players.
Having said that, it is not a secret that Kenny Holland is making five sheets per (Bowman was as well before he rightfully got Saperlipopettecanned for the inexcusable stuff that went down in Chicago). And Lamoriello is right there too. So when insiders like Friedman and Dreger are saying the offer Shanahan had extended and believed Dubas had agreed to would have placed Dubas in the 'top tier' of NHL GMs in terms of compensation, it seems logical to assume that Dubas would have ascended to the $4 million plateau. And Shanahan suggested that things (i.e. numbers) had changed significantly when Dubas' agent unexpectedly countered, so one might surmise that the additional bump his client was looking for was not like a couple hundred grand.
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Post by jkr on May 25, 2023 6:48:51 GMT -5
Other than Bowman, thats a lot of money spent for not a lot of results. Lamoriello and Holland in particular are being paid for what they did in the past.
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