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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 10:29:14 GMT -5
Chris Johnston (no idea who he is) reports on twitter that PK, Meehan, the Habs and a flotilla of lawyers are still cooped up in a hotel room. That was an hour ago. What are they doing?, keeping the arbitrator waiting all this time? If he or she gets paid by the hour, I guess they don't much care. Another coffee, please.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 1, 2014 10:33:12 GMT -5
That's a pretty cynical view, IMO. If that we're the case then no star players would ever sign long term deals in their arbitration years and they would all hit UFA at age 27 . Obviously that's not the case and there is plenty of precedent for guys signing deals before they hit UFA, with Doughty and Karlsson being two good examples. No, I still think Berg made poor use of his leverage 2 years ago. His problem he has no leverage now. PK has it all and he's using it. Well I know I'm feeling pretty cynical right now about both sides. Subban didn't want to negotiate during the season because he said it was a distraction yet now he responds to questions by saying his agent is doing the dealing. Which one is it? If your agent is doing the talking how is it a distraction? It just seems as if things were orchestrated to get to this point. As for Bergevin, well now I finally see the reasons for your consistent oppositionred to the bridge deal. He wasn't a big picture GM & that's what all GMs should be. He went hard for the short term deal. Couldn't he or any of the geniuses he hired have foreseen this scenario? It was only 2 years into the future. He's now on the verge of losing the best talent this team has had in years as he comes into his prime - and maybe for nothing. It isn't Bergereons fault if Subban won't accept a fair deal. The alternative is to overpay and that isn't good for the team either. They have to come to an agreement that is beneficial to both sides. A $64 million dollar contract provides a guarantee to both sides of security. Uncertainty dictates that in a couple of years Subban might be in a position to sign for more or he might get injured and can't get a lucrative contract. A concussion, an Orr knee, a Lemieux back, a deflection to the face, an errant stick to the eye, cancer, all unknowns. Giving up a potential extra million a year in four years vs the security of certain contract is something Subban must evaluate. At his age he may feel invincible and won't be in a car accident.
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Post by blny on Aug 1, 2014 10:52:47 GMT -5
Christ Johnston (no idea who he is) reports on twitter that PK, Meehan, the Habs and a flotilla of lawyers are still cooped up in a hotel room. That was an hour ago. What are they doing?, keeping the arbitrator waiting all this time? If he or she gets paid by the hour, I guess they don't much care. Another coffee, please. Could be this guy. twitter.com/reporterchrisWhen it gets to this point, it's impossible to say from the outside who carries more of the blame. I think both sides deserve to carry some of the load though. Someone posted on the previous page about how long this has taken, making the argument that if Berg can trade for PAP, sign Malhotra and Gilbert, etc, in short order how come a deal with PK can't happen quicker. I think it's a fair comment. The basic structure of any NHL contract is the same. The language too. What changes? Term, cash, bonuses, determining value based on where you play (equating what a player has to make in Montreal to come out after taxes making the same as you would say in Dallas), compiling comparable players and that's about it. IMO, it's not an extremely complicated list. Either you're on the same page or your not.
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Post by Tankdriver on Aug 1, 2014 10:57:54 GMT -5
I think this has Don Meahan all over it. I hate the guy because it seems everytime he represents a Habs player(ex: Theodore?), negotiations are a long drawn out process. I see him as baseballs version of Scott Boras or NFL Drew Rosenhaus.
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Post by jerry_dog on Aug 1, 2014 11:07:22 GMT -5
I think this has Don Meahan all over it. I hate the guy because it seems everytime he represents a Habs player(ex: Theodore?), negotiations are a long drawn out process. I see him as baseballs version of Scott Boras or NFL Drew Rosenhaus. x2
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 1, 2014 11:15:13 GMT -5
2 words... Alexei Yashin
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 11:16:57 GMT -5
When you look at Bergs history with contracts, can you say he's been unfair? I can't. Which leaves me thinking much of the blame rests with PK. Too big an ego? Wish I had more details.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 11:37:16 GMT -5
When you look at Bergs history with contracts, can you say he's been unfair? I can't. Which leaves me thinking much of the blame rests with PK. Too big an ego? Wish I had more details. I think it's Meehan. He's one of the top dogs, if not THE top dog. He plays hardball, especially with franchise players. Would any of us, in PK's position, not want to maximize our earning potential? The other end of the spectrum from the days when the Rocket took rookie Henri into Frank Selke's office and said, "The money doesn't matter, Mr. Selke. He just wants to play for the Canadiens."
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 11:44:20 GMT -5
I wouldn't want any player to be that selfless, but I'd want them to be fair and take into consideration how much his own pay would affect the team's chances of winning. $8MM, $9MM, isn't going to affect your standard of living and that's excluding the endorsements. Being on a winning team would increase those dollars as well.
I'm not so sure it's Meehan. It's easy to blame the agent, and with some players, you could easily go in that direction, but PK is nothing if not self confident. I don't think any agent could lead him around by the nose. Nope, it's PK making those final decisions and pride is playing a big part. If I could criticize the Habs for anything, it's for not giving PK his due earlier this year, before the Olympics. That perceived lack of support is biting back now.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 12:03:19 GMT -5
The Subban hearing is apparently over. I don't know if that means the negotiations, or the actual arbitration hearing. I can't read anything positive into this.
Edit: I think it was the arbitration hearing. Eric Engels on Twitter does not seem pleased over it, suggesting if PK was willing to take $9MM over 8 years, Bergevin should go along. Quote - "I think Marc Bergevin is holding on for dear life here. He's praying his move will work and Subban will cave for a little less".
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 12:13:39 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'."
I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake.
Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread.
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Post by franko on Aug 1, 2014 12:22:49 GMT -5
does he do a year in Edmonton or Phoenix before he signs in Toronto?
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 12:24:03 GMT -5
I'm too pessimistic to believe that. He'll take his one year award & still have all the cards next year. And I think this lowers any trade value he has. Would you give up significant assets for a player in this situation - knowing that he could be gone in a year or two? I don't think he'll be gone in a year or two, but the more I think about the more I think he's the roadblock in all this, and not Bergevin. I know I seem like a Bergevin fan-boy at times, but I can't think of any reason why Subban would sign a long term deal UNLESS it was an absolute home-run. I don't think there was any incentive for him to sign a long term deal two years ago either, unless it was a home-run. People will say "security" but does he really need it? Looking at his hockeydb stats and it appears that he has NEVER been injured. At least not significantly. Heck, for all the vitriol and disgust he seems to inspire around the league, for all the guys gunning for him, how often does he even get hit? So if you're looking at it from Subban's point of view the "worst" case scenario is that you're are forced to take the paltry $8 million or so the arbitrator is going to give you in the next couple of days, and then go through this whole process again next year. At which time, if no home-run deal is on your plate, you will be "forced" again to take another paltry deal, probably in the $8.5, maybe $9 million range. Boo-hoo. And then you'll REALLY hold the hammer, with UFA looming and a cap that will have continued to have gone up. And with perhaps expansion on the horizon, meaning even more dollars available. Two years from now it would not be inconceivable for Subban to be worth $12 million or more. So to me anyways, his plan (or Meahan's if you want an Agent Villain) is to eke out a living on $8 million or so for the next couple of years, and then really cash in two years from now. Not really a bad plan when you think about it. On the positive side, there is still time to get a deal done, and even if a deal isn't done Subban is all but guaranteed to be a Hab for the next two years, and we still have a more than better shot at resigning him to the mega-deal two years from now. I firmly believe that Subban will be here for a really long time, just maybe not at the dollars we think he should be. I don't know what it is, but somehow, we tend to have the same dandruff..... The only thing I disagree with is the last paragraph. MB will be the dumbest GM to ever hold the job if he does not trade Subban. He knows through two negotiations that Subban wants the moon while still a RFA, he is going to want Mars to come along with it as FA. Huge, crippling mistake to hold on to him as if he is some messiah. Bet everything you have that we will lose him in two years for nothing. Then borrow some more and bet that too. NOT a good day........
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 12:29:13 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'." I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake. Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread. Didn't I do that a month ago? I don't know who this Johnston is but unless he was part of it, his guess is no better then my monkeys guess. I seriously doubt that it fell over on a few million. More likely, PK wanted way north of 10 if not an all out record amount.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 12:37:45 GMT -5
When you look at Bergs history with contracts, can you say he's been unfair? I can't. Which leaves me thinking much of the blame rests with PK. Too big an ego? Wish I had more details. Totally agree. Where is the logic in arguing that MB nickel and dim'ed PK when on his other contracts, he paid more then what we thought they are worth? Given history and what we see, rather then what we want to believe, it's PK's ego telling him that he is the best and he should be paid the best. Are we now going to go through a denial period and believe that in two years, PK is going to take less then a record amount? It didn't happen two years ago, it didn't happen now, but he will magically love the Habs more in two years and sign to a reasonable contract? Poor PK, I hope he can survive on the paltry sum the arbitrator will give him......
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 13:21:20 GMT -5
Well, unless MB was insultingly low-balling, this outcome should really endear Subban to MT and his teammates. (Maybe the extra $$ PK seeks is the premium to play under MT. ) I would presume that even with fellow mercenary athletes, there comes a point at which they say, "Okay….come on."
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 13:22:44 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'." I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake. Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread. Didn't I do that a month ago? I don't know who this Johnston is but unless he was part of it, his guess is no better then my monkeys guess. I seriously doubt that it fell over on a few million. More likely, PK wanted way north of 10 if not an all out record amount. Your thread is close. It still asks if we should trade PK, and I think that ship has sailed, now leaving "What can you get for him". Bob McKenzie said something that I think is bang on. His quote, "My uneducated opinion from afar:, MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban, but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x 9-9M+ per." I think the entire relationship with PK from Management's POV, is that precisely. If they loved him, they would have spouted glowing remarks about his performance long before the Olympics. I think the fans LOVE PK a lot more than the braintrust does. Who is righter? One year to trade him and the sooner the better. I don't think this year coming up is the one in which we do anything anyway, still only adequate at many positions instead of superior. PK should have tremendous value. Especially in Toronto . Last place I'd send him, unless the Leafs were sending us back Gardiner, Reilly, JVR and their first round pick this year. Technically 2 years to trade him, but his value decreases with every week, so make it happen before training camp, Berg.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Aug 1, 2014 13:26:31 GMT -5
I think PK wants to stay and he's always allowed to tell his agent to back off a bit and get a deal done. I don't doubt that they are asking for a max deal, but my point is what did Berg expect?
The Habs need to get this done. Management will look MUCH worse than PK if they manage to screw up the biggest talent we've had since Patrick Roy.
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 13:28:32 GMT -5
Bob McKenzie said something that I think is bang on. His quote, "My uneducated opinion from afar:, MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban, but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x 9-9M+ per." I think the entire relationship with PK from Management's POV, is that precisely. Could very well be their mindset. Still the stallion that needs to be broken, in terms of defensive liabilities and attitude. The only problem is if you intend to trade him for a HUGE return, you can't broadcast the above. Should be very interesting now.
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Post by Skilly on Aug 1, 2014 13:32:40 GMT -5
Chris Johnston reports " PK Subban says no deal was reached today. Arbitrator will decide his contract for next season. 'We have to live with those decisions'." I'd sure like to know what was being bid and offered. If it was $9MM, I think Berg's made a mistake. Might as well start the "What can we get for PK?" thread. Well we know what was offered during the arbitration heraring ... Montreal presented theit "evidence" to support 5.25 million. PK presented his evidence to support 8.5 million. He will get paid somewhere between those two numbers next year. What we dont know is how high Bergevin came up in the hotel rooms meetings, or how high up PK wanted for his UFA years. If PK wants 8.5 million for one RFA year, you have to believe he is asking 10+ for those UFA years.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 13:40:03 GMT -5
What we dont know is how high Bergevin came up in the hotel rooms meetings, or how high up PK wanted for his UFA years. If PK wants 8.5 million for one RFA year, you have to believe he is asking 10+ for those UFA years. I'm absolutely certain he is asking north of 10 million for the UFA. He KNOWS (and we know) that he can get 12 million at FA. Straight up logic......if he wants 8.5 for UFA, there is no reason in the world that he would not ask for 10 million for UFA. Or MORE. Quote from the man himself....."it's not personal, it's bu$ine$$".
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 13:42:32 GMT -5
Didn't I do that a month ago? I don't know who this Johnston is but unless he was part of it, his guess is no better then my monkeys guess. I seriously doubt that it fell over on a few million. More likely, PK wanted way north of 10 if not an all out record amount. Your thread is close. It still asks if we should trade PK, and I think that ship has sailed, now leaving "What can you get for him". Bob McKenzie said something that I think is bang on. His quote, "My uneducated opinion from afar:, MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban, but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x 9-9M+ per." I think the entire relationship with PK from Management's POV, is that precisely. If they loved him, they would have spouted glowing remarks about his performance long before the Olympics. I think the fans LOVE PK a lot more than the braintrust does. Who is righter? One year to trade him and the sooner the better. I don't think this year coming up is the one in which we do anything anyway, still only adequate at many positions instead of superior. PK should have tremendous value. Especially in Toronto . Last place I'd send him, unless the Leafs were sending us back Gardiner, Reilly, JVR and their first round pick this year. Technically 2 years to trade him, but his value decreases with every week, so make it happen before training camp, Berg. The sooner the better. It's far, far too risky to think that there is hope and wait.........until he is worth nothing to us.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 1, 2014 13:52:37 GMT -5
So let's say PK does the simple math that I'm used to (avoiding actuarial tables). If PK gets $8.5 per year for the next two years and 10+ for the next 6. That makes $77MM over 8 years =$9.625 per year. Assuming CAP goes up 5% per year that's an average CAP over the next 8 years of $85.5MM. PK's salary takes up 11.25% of that CAP. How does that compare to the other elite players in the league, assuming you're going to place PK in that category? That's probably a best case scenario. I'm skeptical that the CAP will go up that much given the economic state in the world. But these numbers at least give us a basis on which to consider who was asking for too much. The key questions are...How much will the CAP change? and just how good is PK in relation to the stars of the game. Would you trade PK for Toews, Crosby, Doughty, Kane? I'm picking the best young players to keep the age somewhat similar. Here's a good one? would you trade PK for Ryan McDonagh even up? I might. It would be close.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 1, 2014 14:16:21 GMT -5
Your thread is close. It still asks if we should trade PK, and I think that ship has sailed, now leaving "What can you get for him". Bob McKenzie said something that I think is bang on. His quote, "My uneducated opinion from afar:, MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban, but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x 9-9M+ per." I think the entire relationship with PK from Management's POV, is that precisely. If they loved him, they would have spouted glowing remarks about his performance long before the Olympics. I think the fans LOVE PK a lot more than the braintrust does. Who is righter? One year to trade him and the sooner the better. I don't think this year coming up is the one in which we do anything anyway, still only adequate at many positions instead of superior. PK should have tremendous value. Especially in Toronto . Last place I'd send him, unless the Leafs were sending us back Gardiner, Reilly, JVR and their first round pick this year. Technically 2 years to trade him, but his value decreases with every week, so make it happen before training camp, Berg. The sooner the better. It's far, far too risky to think that there is hope and wait.........until he is worth nothing to us. We have him for two more years at a bargain price. Play him or trade him, enjoy him while he's here and come to a decision in two years or less. PK better hope he stays healthy or stands to lose $60 million guaranteed vs an extra $2 million a year maybe. Lots af teams would trade for him. Bergy knows what he's doing and so does PK.
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Post by UberCranky on Aug 1, 2014 14:21:33 GMT -5
We have him for two more years at a bargain price. Play him or trade him, enjoy him while he's here and come to a decision in two years or less. . I rather trade him NOW for as much as we can rather then wait....and hope. His trade value already took a hit today and it will keep sliding down ever day from now on....until it reaches a bag of pucks the following June.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 1, 2014 14:46:58 GMT -5
We have him for two more years at a bargain price. Play him or trade him, enjoy him while he's here and come to a decision in two years or less. . I rather trade him NOW for as much as we can rather then wait....and hope. His trade value already took a hit today and it will keep sliding down ever day from now on....until it reaches a bag of pucks the following June. Reluctantly agree, but not much has changed. If offered a bag of pucks, reject it. If offered McDavid, grab him. We know there is no long term deal, (maybe). We know there will be a one year deal with UFA still two years away. We don't know if we are getting ready for the playoffs and who the buyers and sellers are. We don't know if we are one, two or five pieces away from a cup run. We know we are better with Subban than without him. Pacioretty, twenty, thirty or breakthrough fifty goals. Injuries? Markov? The two Gallys?? We know Subban and Meghan play hardball. We know Bergevin is building the team and sticks to his guns about cap space although he spent more for two more years of Eller than he had to. Briere, Vanek, Parros... Addition by subtraction.
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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 14:49:47 GMT -5
Christ Johnston (no idea who he is) reports on twitter that PK, Meehan, the Habs and a flotilla of lawyers are still cooped up in a hotel room. That was an hour ago. What are they doing?, keeping the arbitrator waiting all this time? If he or she gets paid by the hour, I guess they don't much care. Another coffee, please. Could be this guy. twitter.com/reporterchrisWhen it gets to this point, it's impossible to say from the outside who carries more of the blame. I think both sides deserve to carry some of the load though. Someone posted on the previous page about how long this has taken, making the argument that if Berg can trade for PAP, sign Malhotra and Gilbert, etc, in short order how come a deal with PK can't happen quicker. I think it's a fair comment. The basic structure of any NHL contract is the same. The language too. What changes? Term, cash, bonuses, determining value based on where you play (equating what a player has to make in Montreal to come out after taxes making the same as you would say in Dallas), compiling comparable players and that's about it. IMO, it's not an extremely complicated list. Either you're on the same page or your not. I think that was me. This shouldn't have got to this point. They have had 2 freakin months since the season ended. Chris Johnston is the Sportsnet hockey guy.
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Post by jkr on Aug 1, 2014 14:52:24 GMT -5
Bob McKenzie said something that I think is bang on. His quote, "My uneducated opinion from afar:, MTL likes, maybe really likes, Subban, but doesn't LOVE him. And you have to LOVE someone at 8 x 9-9M+ per." I think the entire relationship with PK from Management's POV, is that precisely. Could very well be their mindset. Still the stallion that needs to be broken, in terms of defensive liabilities and attitude. The only problem is if you intend to trade him for a HUGE return, you can't broadcast the above. Should be very interesting now. That comment has Michel Therrien written all over it. And they've already broadcast their feelings by taking him to arbitration. Good move MB. Keep the mediocre coach & get rid of the star player.
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Post by Skilly on Aug 1, 2014 14:58:53 GMT -5
So let's say PK does the simple math that I'm used to (avoiding actuarial tables). If PK gets $8.5 per year for the next two years and 10+ for the next 6. That makes $77MM over 8 years =$9.625 per year. Assuming CAP goes up 5% per year that's an average CAP over the next 8 years of $85.5MM. PK's salary takes up 11.25% of that CAP. How does that compare to the other elite players in the league, assuming you're going to place PK in that category? That's probably a best case scenario. I'm skeptical that the CAP will go up that much given the economic state in the world. But these numbers at least give us a basis on which to consider who was asking for too much. The key questions are...How much will the CAP change? and just how good is PK in relation to the stars of the game. Would you trade PK for Toews, Crosby, Doughty, Kane? I'm picking the best young players to keep the age somewhat similar. Here's a good one? would you trade PK for Ryan McDonagh even up? I might. It would be close. It the "+" that worries me .... That 77 million is a minimum in your calculation.. I don't see the CAP ever reaching 101.9 million either; that would mean the floor would be in the 70+ million range. There is no way some markets can reach that, even in 8 years time
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Post by CentreHice on Aug 1, 2014 14:59:23 GMT -5
The sooner the better. It's far, far too risky to think that there is hope and wait.........until he is worth nothing to us. Especially if tensions mount over the course of the season because of the negotiations/settlement. What a predicament. It certainly hasn't helped matters that MT entered the scene having been a harsh critic of PK's play 3 years ago on RDS. PK and Carey are great friends, no? If PK is traded (and MT's treatment has anything to do with it) how long before Price shows his displeasure and wants out? Just speculating on such a domino effect. The fans would certainly have something to "demonstrate", too….
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