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Post by Rhiessan on Apr 12, 2003 23:37:48 GMT -5
Ok let's say the BPA is another small center ? It's going to get tough to trade them all ... Plekanec-Ribeiro-Juneau-Perreault + someone else ... supposing Higgins and Koivu are locks ... Lol...ok fair enough lets say BPAO6F(best player available over six feet)  |
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Post by PTH on Apr 12, 2003 23:50:27 GMT -5
Ok let's say the BPA is another small center ? It's going to get tough to trade them all ... Plekanec-Ribeiro-Juneau-Perreault + someone else ... supposing Higgins and Koivu are locks ... You don't need to trade them all. Just whichever one doesn't fit in, or whichever one another team wants most. If you had Yzerman, Sakic and Koivu, would that really be a problem ? I'd rather have a smallish productive center to trade then another Terry Ryan or Eric Chouinard. BPA. Period. |
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Post by Habsolution on Apr 13, 2003 2:23:24 GMT -5
You don't need to trade them all. Just whichever one doesn't fit in, or whichever one another team wants most. If you had Yzerman, Sakic and Koivu, would that really be a problem ? I'd rather have a smallish productive center to trade then another Terry Ryan or Eric Chouinard. BPA. Period. Still you have Plek, Ribs, Koivu, Higgins and whole bunch of small overpaid centers to get rid of if you draft a good young center. |
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Post by PTH on Apr 13, 2003 3:07:21 GMT -5
Still you have Plek, Ribs, Koivu, Higgins and whole bunch of small overpaid centers to get rid of if you draft a good young center. The guy we draft won't be in the NHL for 2-3 years in any case. Guys like Juneau and Perreault will be long gone. Ribeiro, Plekanec and Higgins are still not long-term proven NHLers, nor are they overpaid at this point, so this isn't an issue.... You don't draft to fill your organisational table with the right number of names for position, you draft to get players, and if your drafting turns about being imbalanced, then you trade with someone whose drafting is also unbalanced. The only time you draft for position IMO is when you're looking at goalies (or older European players who could step in right away) , since it's hard to groom goalies without NHL ice time. But for the rest, it's hard to have too many good kids. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 13, 2003 5:30:50 GMT -5
I not overly certain we will be addressing our "power forward" need at this draft. As I said earlier, any player we pick this year will in all likelihood be at least 2, if not 3 years away. Assuming there is a lock out, that would mean our "power forward" won't have his rookie year for another 4 years from now, and probably won't be an impact player for another 8-10 (which would make it his 4th to 6th year in the NHL, about right for a power forward - 26 to 28 years old). I don't know about you, but if we have to wait another decade to resolve this size-up-front issue... Said it before, say it again. Best player available. If that's Parise, or Vanek, or Phaneuf, or Suter, then so be it. We can always deal them later. Higgins wasn't rated a powerforward, and he seems to be doing all right, no? Last thing I want is to waste a pick drafting for size, because that is the perceived need. Where was Turner Stevenson picked anyways? As for defense, its not like we have all that much depth, in reality. We have "potential" depth, but Brian Savage has "potential" to score 30 goals. Show me the money, in other words. Aside from the big three, who do we have? Linhart? Shasby? Both had difficult years. Beauchemin? Bouillon? Nothing special. What happens if Hainsey doesn't turn it around? Or Markov goes back to Russia? Or Komisarek plateaus at the Stephane Quintal level? With Brisebois gone, Rivet his usual #4 self, and Souray recuperating in hospital, our alleged "defense depth" suddenly gets very thin. We have 2, and only 2, legitimate defense prospects. Hainsey and Komisarek. That's it. At forward, on the other hand, we have Hossa, Perezhoughin, Higgins, Plekanec, Ward, Ryder, Milroy and Balej. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that organizationally we are much weaker on the blueline than up front... 6'3" 233 lbs. 49 goals 101 pts. what's not to like about Bernier. No one else in the draft can match those stats. Bernier hits them first and softens them up for Komisarek to cream them. Bernier plants himself in front of the goaltender on the powerplay. We haven't had that kind of player in a long time. We are weak on defense as BC noted but I agree with best player available. Why are players with inferior stats listed ahead of Bernier? Is it because QMJHL stats are discounted 62.127%? |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 13, 2003 5:33:02 GMT -5
You don't need to trade them all. Just whichever one doesn't fit in, or whichever one another team wants most. If you had Yzerman, Sakic and Koivu, would that really be a problem ? I'd rather have a smallish productive center to trade then another Terry Ryan or Eric Chouinard. BPA. Period. Me too. I'd love to see Koivu, Ribeiro and Hudler even though I normally prefer size but then I digress................... |
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Post by HabzFan on Apr 13, 2003 10:06:13 GMT -5
6'3" 233 lbs. 49 goals 101 pts. what's not to like about Bernier. No one else in the draft can match those stats. Bernier hits them first and softens them up for Komisarek to cream them. Bernier plants himself in front of the goaltender on the powerplay. We haven't had that kind of player in a long time. We are weak on defense as BC noted but I agree with best player available. Why are players with inferior stats listed ahead of Bernier? Is it because QMJHL stats are discounted 62.127%? Stats aren't a good way of determining talent... Especially in the Q... Look at Gamache, Ribeiro... The examples are endless. That is why we have scouts who actually goes and watches about 10-15 games of that player to determine if he is worth a second look. Anyone on this board could look at stats but it doesn't make us qualified enough to determine whether or not the player is the real deal. |
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Post by turnbuckle on Apr 13, 2003 10:51:39 GMT -5
Let it be stated for the record that scouts like Bernier.
What is the exact definition of BPA?
people are always quick to consider skilled players to be the BPAs, but is that necessarily true?
Is the 50-point NHL scoring wimp that doesn't backcheck a better player than the 30-point scorer with grit that hits like a ton of bricks, scraps and plays great defensively?
It appears that many posters are reluctant to draft Bernier because of this "Best Player Available" theory. Well - who's to say he won't be the BPA?
He skates very well, is smart, makes good passes, has a good shot........don't be scared off because he's also big. That's a good thing, particularly for the Habs.
"Best Player Available" should include size, grittiness, skating ability, skill, competitiveness, etc. Bernier gets passing marks in all categories.
Maybe a player like O'Sullivan rates higher in the "playmaker" and "smarts" categories, but trails significantly in some other categories. Thus Bernier is the BPA.
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Post by turnbuckle on Apr 13, 2003 11:26:23 GMT -5
Yup I remember in 2001 when he put Jens Karllson in his top 10 and seemed pretty convinced he would go in the top 10(and he went 18th overall) C'mon Marc. that's one example. if you like I'll show you about 100 examples of the CSB listings being incorrect. milroy, for example, was the 7th ranked NA prospect two seasons ago; he was picked 37th overall. Patty is correct in lauding Mackenzie's lists, which is normally the most accurate one available to us armchair scouts. A couple of years ago on TSN during the draft Bob correctly guessed at least 15 of the top 20 picks. Not even Mel Kiper Jr. has pulled off a feat like that. Mackenzie's ranking of Nilsson is a helluva lot closer to the truth than many of the rankings we've seen. From what I've gathered from scouts I've talked to (including Pierre Dorion, and Anaheim's Tim Murray and Todd Hearty) I'd be very surprised if he's a top ten pick. |
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Post by FormerLurker on Apr 13, 2003 11:52:04 GMT -5
In theory, yes. But unfortunately drafting is more of an art than a science, so it is very difficult to determine just who is the BPA, especially at that age, and especially when many of them have different skillsets. We can't just keep chanting the BPA mantra and expect it to resolve all decisions. For example, when San Jose picks sixth overall, it's entirely possible that Fleury, Michalek, Brown, Parise, and Coburn may be available. In that list, who is the BPA? Ask five different scouts, and you'll likely get five different answers. If San Jose thinks that Michalek, Coburn and Fleury are clearly better than Brown and Parise, then they've eliminated two of the choices. But if they think that the remaining three players are all about equal, there's gotta be a tie-break. They use organisational need to break the tie. With Nabokov, Kiprusoff, and Toskala, they're pretty set in goal. Stuart, McLaren, Rathje, and Hannan give them one of the best top four D in the league. So they go with Michalek. You may say "obviously you pick based on need when the players are equal in all other respects". Problem is, the players are never equal based on all other respects. I believe that, for most picks in the draft, two or more players may fit the BPA criteria. So for each pick, these players are ranked according to organisational need. I.e., teams use BPA to narrow the field to two or three players, then organisational need to break the tie. |
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Post by MPLABBE on Apr 13, 2003 12:36:16 GMT -5
Mackenzie's ranking of Nilsson is a helluva lot closer to the truth than many of the rankings we've seen. From what I've gathered from scouts I've talked to (including Pierre Dorion, and Anaheim's Tim Murray and Todd Hearty) I'd be very surprised if he's a top ten pick. Agreed. Vanek's team is playing the NCAA championship game on NHL network now(I think this thing is taped not live). All I have to say is Vanek looks like a floater.... |
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Post by Habsolution on Apr 13, 2003 14:04:20 GMT -5
Agreed. Vanek's team is playing the NCAA championship game on NHL network now(I think this thing is taped not live). All I have to say is Vanek looks like a floater.... People over at HF say that he floats for a whole game but he always manage to be there scoring the big goal in the third. It might work in the NCAA but I dunno about that in the NHL. |
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Post by montreal on Apr 13, 2003 14:07:27 GMT -5
Agreed. Vanek's team is playing the NCAA championship game on NHL network now(I think this thing is taped not live). All I have to say is Vanek looks like a floater.... Marc, I've seen him play a hand full of games, and I did notice his Hossa like floating, but he's a clutch goal scorer. He's scored two huge goals in the the last 2 games, with both Game Winers which got his team the championship. Plus he was the one who carried the puck in for the 3rd and I assume final goal. (I turned it off late in the 3rd). But forget Vanek, unless we move up, he's as good as gone by 10th. He's scored 31 or 33 goals in his freshman year (more goals then Higgins total points in his freshman year) and half of those goals were eith game winners or in the 3rd period. Add in his size, and he should go high in the draft. As for Nillsson, with his size, I wonder if he goes top 10. But breaking the rookie scoring record while playing on the 3rd line is impressive. I would love for us to get him, but we have so many small forward prospects as is. At 10th, there will be several good options, and I look forward to see who we get. Anyone see Bernier play? I read that he has a slow first step, but that his skating is solid. For a big guy is he fast, slow, good skater decent skater, great skater. He sounds too good to be true. |
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Post by seventeen on Apr 13, 2003 15:24:03 GMT -5
Yup I remember in 2001 when he put Jens Karllson in his top 10 and seemed pretty convinced he would go in the top 10(and he went 18th overall) Oh shucks, McKenzie's not perfect. Well, that lumps him in with everyone else I can think of, excepting perhaps HA. I agree with Patty Roy, Marc. From years of draft watching, McKenzie's list is most often the closest one to reality. He was wrong on Sakic back in 87 too, as THN had him in 10th spot and he went 15th. A whole 5 spots. Inexcusable. I don't recall exactly, but where did he have Jiri baby (Hudler) last year? Where did everyone have him? On balance, if I have only one list to choose from, it would be Mckenzie's. On the Vanek thing, I can think of some pretty good stars who you could classify as floaters. Brett Hull, Mike Bossy for starters. Both terrible in the corners and less than average on the backcheck. No way I'd want them on my team.  |
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Post by Habsolution on Apr 13, 2003 16:42:13 GMT -5
But forget Vanek, unless we move up, he's as good as gone by 10th. He's scored 31 or 33 goals in his freshman year (more goals then Higgins total points in his freshman year) and half of those goals were eith game winners or in the 3rd period. Add in his size, and he should go high in the draft. He already confirmed he would go back to the gophers for one more year. Could that scare some team into not picking him earlier ? |
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Post by MPLABBE on Apr 13, 2003 17:39:12 GMT -5
Marc, I've seen him play a hand full of games, and I did notice his Hossa like floating, but he's a clutch goal scorer. He reminded me of Marcel as well. Both of them have blond affros, both are big guys and both seem to play the same style... |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 13, 2003 17:49:56 GMT -5
François Béliveau, La Presse, 10/04/03
This young man is currently in Yaroslavl, Russia, with 21 other 17 year old Canadian hockey players on standby for the beginning of the 18-and-under World Championship which begins Saturday and goes until April 22.
Steve Bernier, who celebrated his 18th birthday on March 31, was the shining light of the Moncton Wildcats this winter. Born in Vanier, near Quebec, this power forward will be one of the happy ones in the first round of this year's entry draft in Nashville.
He was ranked 15th among North American players in the last scouting report, but this didn't take into account his strong finish before his playoff injury. Even when adding goalies and the European players, Bernier will nevertheless remain among the 30 top players.
"He's a big guy, able to create space on the ice, affirms his coach Christian La Rue. He is impressive, much better than his evaluation would have you believe. One of the more beautiful talents that I've been blessed to see. In the second half of the season, his progress was not only consistent, but outstanding. I would not be surprised if he is selected among the top 15 choices. Any NHL club would regard him as an investment in their future."
Bernier was the ninth leading scorer in the QMJHL with 49 goals and 52 assists in 71 games, finishing fifth with a ranking of + 33. His physical development is astonishing: at the beginning of the campaign, he measured 6'1 and weighed 214 pounds. At mid-season, he was 6'1 and a half and 228 pounds, and in March, he had grown to 6'2 and half, and with additional muscle, to 233 pounds.
"His general attitude is an antidote against a possible bust à la Alexandre Daigle, adds the general manager of the Wildcats, Allan Power. He's not a selfish player. He is dedicated to his team and his team-mates. Some make a spectacle after having scored a goal. Steve, after a goal, controls his emotions, he hugs his team-mates and discreetly takes his place on the bench, to show them how important they are. He appreciates the effort of the others on the ice and off. He has team goals, not personal ones."
Power and La Rue analyzed their star player seriously and they concluded that he must improve his acceleration and remain simple in his approach, nothing fancy, in order to have a good career. According to them, Bernier knows that the price to be paid is not one or two years of effort, but progression over a whole career.
The young man, represented by Gilles Lupien, has already experienced great tournaments. He was on the Canadian under-17 team which won the Eight Nations Cup in Slovakia last year.
"Steve hits hard and opponents will remember his shoulder. He's not easy to move from in front of the enemy net, and his shot is powerful and precise, said Power. He's the type of player the Bruins would like. He resembles Cam Neely. The Canadiens, who are looking for big forwards, would also be happy to count on a player such as him, who is not a "glamour boy". He is stronger and a better scorer than Éric Dazé was at his age. That's not small potatoes... "
The five other QMJHL players present at Yaroslavl are defenseman Patrick Coulombe and forwards Marc-Antoine Pouliot and Dany Roussin, all three from Rimouski Océanic; Stephen Dixon, from the Screaming Eagles, and Alexandre Bolduc, from the Rouyn-Noranda Huskies. They are not the only Francophones, because goalie Réjean Beauchemin of Winnipeg, defenseman Paul Bissonnette and winger Jamie Tardif, from the franco-ontarian community in Welland, are part of the group.
<br>
Seven Québécois players, if not ten with the goalies Marc-Andre Fleury (Cape-Breton), Jonathan Boutin (Halifax) and Corey Crawford (Moncton), will be taken in the first round in Nashville. One could call this an outstanding year for the QMJHL, even if the circuit's management doesn't want to venture such an optimistic prediction. Christian La Rue is confident that Crawford belongs in the first round, even though he's ranked as the third best goalie.
A far as the players, the CSB places Marc-Antoine Pouliot (Rimouski) fourth among North Americans, 6'4 Slovak Richard Stehlik (Sherbrooke) 13th rank in spite of his 19 years; Bernier 15th and Alexandre Bolduc (Rouyn-Noranda) 18th while Maxim Lapierre, of the Rocket, Patrice Bergeron, of the Titan, and Louis-Philippe Martin, of the Drakkar, are respectively 27th, 29th and 30th.
Bernier -- youngest of the top 10 QMJHL scorers - in addition to him, at 17 years old, there's only one at 18, and all the others are of 19 or 20 years old -- is the son of Richard Bernier, a steel industry foreman in Quebec, and of Johanne Nadeau who works in the food industry. His only brother, Patrick, 15 years old, 5'11 and 200 pounds, played for the Sainte-Foy Gouverneurs (midget AAA) this winter and we predict him to be drafted in the second round in the Courteau circuit.
"I'll believe in it when I see it, declared Richard Bernier yesterday. One thing for sure, I'll be in Nashville with Steve in June. We are not rich and we always encouraged Steve to remain simple and modest. He's not at all the boasting kind. He would have been proud of 80 points this season. He collected 101. Since he has fun when he plays..."
Yesterday, Steve telephoned his parents from Germany, right before the departure of Team Canada for Russia. His squad had just beaten Germany 9-1, and he had picked up three assists...
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Post by MPLABBE on Apr 13, 2003 18:11:49 GMT -5
thanks for that Mr B.
Oh no..not Gilles Lupien as his agent...
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Post by Habsolution on Apr 13, 2003 20:24:00 GMT -5
Bernier for president ! ;D
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Post by Ryan on Apr 13, 2003 21:28:52 GMT -5
I will be very upset if the Habs pick Dustin Brown.
I'm a Kitchener Rangers fan that has now seen Brown play in about 15 regular season games, and 9 playoff games, so I've seen him enough to form a pretty good opinion.
Here are some things you should know about "Fall Down Brown":
*The first things you should know is he is incredibly fast, but is not very big. He's truly about 6'0 and 185 lbs, hardly what you'd call a power forward.
*His gloves are absolutely glued to his hands, he will never drop them. That may be important to note for anyone expecting him to be a rough and tough style player.
*By his own admission he didn't start hitting this year until his agent told him to do so. He's not a bad hitter, and doesn't shy away from traffic, but his desire to play a physical game comes and goes.
*As the nickname "Fall Down Brown" might suggest he makes a blatant dive 2 to 3 times a game. It's actually pretty embarassing to his teammates, and even Guelph Storm fans.
*He's got skill, no doubt about that. If you're someone like me that puts a lot of stock into the character of a kid you wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. I can see a lot of holdouts and trade demands in this kids' future. He'll likely score 30 goals in the NHL, but won't be worth the trouble.
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Post by MPLABBE on Apr 13, 2003 21:33:33 GMT -5
I see Ryan. Some interesting info there.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Apr 13, 2003 22:57:16 GMT -5
17. Steve Bernier - A skilled winger who can score and also happens to be built like a Buick? Okay what's the catch? Well Bernier has all the makings to be John LeClair or John Tripp. When he's on, he uses his size to bounce of the opposition and make scoring look easy with an immense amount of talent. On off nights, he looks lost and confused and is a liability in his own zone. Which player is the real Steve Bernier? The one who was seen as a top five pick a year ago, or the one who might slip out of the first round altogether? He's a risk, but his ceiling makes scouts drool.
You may have already seen this, but I think it explains why a guy like Bernier is not a concensus #1. I say we roll the dice and go for his upside. I think he will be a John Leclair and not a John Tripp. He may even be better than LeClair. I don't want to lose him.
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Post by Cranky on Apr 13, 2003 23:15:42 GMT -5
I don't care if they draft a forward or defenseman as long as they draft someone with the 666 on top of his head. I am getting sick and tired of this teams collective Teletuby mentality. Komo was suppose to kill and enjoy it but instead he is getting infected with the Traverse virus.
Yes, I love to see a huge behemoth park his butt in front of the net and dare anyone to touch him. A combination of Uber-goon and scoring ability that we MUST have in order to be a contender.
Sheesh, right now I would even settle if we were pretenders…..
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 13, 2003 23:20:01 GMT -5
thanks for that Mr B. Oh no..not Gilles Lupien as his agent... You're welcome. One paragraph that stood out for me: "Bernier was the ninth leading scorer in the QMJHL with 49 goals and 52 assists in 71 games, finishing fifth with a ranking of +33. His physical development is astonishing: at the beginning of the campaign, he measured 6'1 and weighed 214 pounds. At mid-season, he was 6'1 and a half and 228 pounds, and in March, he had grown to 6'2 and half, and with additional muscle, to 233 pounds." He grew an inch and a half and put on 19lbs in seven months. And he just turned 18! Mmmm, a forward as big as, or bigger than, Komo. Too bad Ribeiro has the metabolism of a tree shrew. |
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Post by Cranky on Apr 13, 2003 23:31:29 GMT -5
. Too bad Ribeiro has the metabolism of a tree shrew. You mean a tree sloth. The shrew has a high metabolic rate and unlike Ribiero, they are quick. On the other hand, shrews, sloths and Ribiero have something in common. Size. Don't tell me, you watch National Geographics for the naked woman, don't you, you old goat.......  |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 13, 2003 23:49:26 GMT -5
You mean a tree sloth. The shrew has a high metabolic rate and unlike Ribiero, they are quick. On the other hand, shrews, sloths and Ribiero have something in common. Size. Don't tell me, you watch National Geographics for the naked woman, don't you, you old goat....... Shrews burn off calories almost as fast as they take them in. The higher the metabolism, the more of a problem is gaining weight. The green-eyed Afghan woman haunts me.  |
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Post by Rhiessan on Apr 14, 2003 0:01:21 GMT -5
I will be very upset if the Habs pick Dustin Brown. I'm a Kitchener Rangers fan that has now seen Brown play in about 15 regular season games, and 9 playoff games, so I've seen him enough to form a pretty good opinion. Here are some things you should know about "Fall Down Brown": *The first things you should know is he is incredibly fast, but is not very big. He's truly about 6'0 and 185 lbs, hardly what you'd call a power forward. *His gloves are absolutely glued to his hands, he will never drop them. That may be important to note for anyone expecting him to be a rough and tough style player. *By his own admission he didn't start hitting this year until his agent told him to do so. He's not a bad hitter, and doesn't shy away from traffic, but his desire to play a physical game comes and goes. *As the nickname "Fall Down Brown" might suggest he makes a blatant dive 2 to 3 times a game. It's actually pretty embarassing to his teammates, and even Guelph Storm fans. *He's got skill, no doubt about that. If you're someone like me that puts a lot of stock into the character of a kid you wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. I can see a lot of holdouts and trade demands in this kids' future. He'll likely score 30 goals in the NHL, but won't be worth the trouble. I don't know Ryan, I think you're being a little harsh maybe a little extra biased being a Rangers' fan. Hell I'm a Storm fan(used to be a big Platers fan) and I hate the Rangers almost as much as the Laffs and the only player I wasn't overly critical of that played for you guys was Stevens. I will agree however that Brown becomeing a power forward is questionable and some people around here are actually starting to turn me on to Bernier. |
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Post by Habsolution on Apr 14, 2003 0:14:50 GMT -5
The green-eyed Afghan woman haunts me. Eh I saw her too. They took a pic of her like a long time ago and they took another pic of her recently and they found out it was the same exact person because of her incredible eyes. Saw that in Science & Vie |
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Post by Cranky on Apr 14, 2003 0:30:06 GMT -5
The green-eyed Afghan woman haunts me. Eh I saw her too. They took a pic of her like a long time ago and they took another pic of her recently and they found out it was the same exact person because of her incredible eyes. Saw that in Science & Vie  You mean her?  C'mon guys, try to get out into the fresh air and sunlight more often. |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Apr 14, 2003 1:07:44 GMT -5
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You mean her?