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Post by Douper on Jan 19, 2009 9:24:11 GMT -5
The more I think of it this isn't a Gainey deal. He said numerous times that Defense is his priority and that trading Markov would be totally counter productive. I know it's Vinny but Markov is too important to us. PK, McDonaugh, Fisher, Carle are not ready to be replacements.
I was looking at our roster as of next season and right now we look like this:
Andrei Kostitsyn __________ Sergei Kostitsyn
Max Pacioretty __________ __________
___________ Maxim Lapierre __________
Georges Laraque ___________ __________
Markov ________
Hamrlik ________
Gorges ________
Carey Price
Jaro Halak
Total Cap hit: 22.454
I thought that maybe Gainey would throw in the brothers but that is just not feasable. If Gainey trades Markov and we can't resign Komisarek we are in real trouble. Especially if Jaybo says no to us in the summer (which I suspect).
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Post by franko on Jan 19, 2009 11:07:28 GMT -5
I was looking at our roster as of next season and right now we look like this: __________ __________ __________ ___________ __________ ___________ __________ ________ ________ ________ Well . . . ouch. |
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Post by blny on Jan 19, 2009 11:34:36 GMT -5
There's even more members of the Blank family than there is the Sutter family!  |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 19, 2009 11:39:47 GMT -5
Technically one of those ______'s on defense could be filled with O'Byrne. I suspect one other might be filled with someone from Hamilton/Emelin/Valentenko/Korneev.
I feel that we need 2 defensemen come the offseason. One to fill Komisarek's spot (if it isn't Komisarek) and another to fill a 5/6/7 spot like Brisebois has been doing these past 2 seasons.
The other 2 spots (assuming we carry 7 defensemen) can be filled from within.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 19, 2009 12:15:56 GMT -5
No kidding. If Plekanec continues to return to form, then our group of centers is much more than good enough, whereas our defence is comparatively weak. Trading our best defenceman to upgrade at center makes no sense. Yep....that's been a chronic problem since our most recent Cup....forwards running around in our own zone...too tired to generate the offense needed.  I say that as a generalization....but there is truth in it. Remember all those years of being hemmed in and horribly outshot and outchanced? Don't want to relive those. ...I would respecfully disagree. Our latest cup run we had a pretty ordinary defense corp but a pretty amazing center line with Damphousse and Muller both over 90 pts, Lebeau at 80+ and Carbonneau who was arguably the best shutdown center of his time. He said numerous times that Defense is his priority ...he also has been chasing a #1 center every summers since he got here.... |
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Post by BadCompany on Jan 19, 2009 12:34:05 GMT -5
The more I think of it this isn't a Gainey deal. He said numerous times that Defense is his priority and that trading Markov would be totally counter productive. I know it's Vinny but Markov is too important to us. I agree this doesn’t sound like a Gainey deal. However… but… perhaps… What if Uncle George steps in? I don’t personally think he will, and there has been NO indication that Gillett is anything more than a model owner, quite content to let his hockey people run his hockey team, but… but… but… how badly has Gillett been hit by the global economic crisis? We know his Liverpool adventure has been a mess, what else does he still own? Is he still big in Vail and the skiing business? That can’t be going well. Meat packing? Trucking? There is no question that Vinny Lecavalier will be a marketing windfall for the GEG. How many sweaters does Andrei Markov sell? How many would Lecavalier sell? We know Gillett doesn’t have to worry about selling out the building, so this would be a GREAT way to increase his Habs revenue… Not saying Gillett will step in, but it is possible that Gillett has looked at his bottom line and thought “gee, you know…” |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 19, 2009 12:47:02 GMT -5
Last time Uncle George stepped in we ended up with Samsonov. Let's hope he doesn't do it again.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 19, 2009 13:06:03 GMT -5
The more I think of it this isn't a Gainey deal. He said numerous times that Defense is his priority and that trading Markov would be totally counter productive. I know it's Vinny but Markov is too important to us. I agree this doesn’t sound like a Gainey deal. However… but… perhaps… What if Uncle George steps in? I don’t personally think he will, and there has been NO indication that Gillett is anything more than a model owner, quite content to let his hockey people run his hockey team, but… but… but… how badly has Gillett been hit by the global economic crisis? We know his Liverpool adventure has been a mess, what else does he still own? Is he still big in Vail and the skiing business? That can’t be going well. Meat packing? Trucking? There is no question that Vinny Lecavalier will be a marketing windfall for the GEG. How many sweaters does Andrei Markov sell? How many would Lecavalier sell? We know Gillett doesn’t have to worry about selling out the building, so this would be a GREAT way to increase his Habs revenue… Not saying Gillett will step in, but it is possible that Gillett has looked at his bottom line and thought “gee, you know…” It's really, really hard mentioning Markov in this deal from a Habs perspective. OTOH, it's pretty much a no-brainer from a Bolt perspective. Gainey has been stockpiling defensive prospects for a few years now. He obviously identified where the club needed upgrading and he and Timmins went out and filled it. I can't see Markov going anywhere. As I mentioned before, Komisarek could be a name, but TB will probably want his name on a contract, if only in principle, before any deal went down. Another name that's being mentioned here on the boards is Chipchura. As Doc was saying, he was handed Lapierre's job to win or lose and it's Lapierre who is excelling now. As an aside, I honestly believe Lapierre needed that demotion to excel to the point where he is now. Have to run. Cheers. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 19, 2009 19:10:45 GMT -5
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Habs are playing the Bolts in Tampa Bay on Jan 27th. If a deal is there, it wouldn't surprise me if both sides are waiting for that game to pass before they sign off on it. Vinny coming to Montreal would be enough of a circus for him, but imagine if he had to deal with the hoopla of going back to Tampa Bay as a Hab right away.
Personally, I think a deal is there. The rumour came from trusted sources and there's too much detail in it for it to be all smoke and mirrors. With that being said, the more I think about it, the more I believe that both Gainey and Lawton are waiting for the 27th to pass before pulling the trigger.
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Post by cigarviper on Jan 19, 2009 19:55:17 GMT -5
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Habs are playing the Bolts in Tampa Bay on Jan 27th. If a deal is there, it wouldn't surprise me if both sides are waiting for that game to pass before they sign off on it. Vinny coming to Montreal would be enough of a circus for him, but imagine if he had to deal with the hoopla of going back to Tampa Bay as a Hab right away. Personally, I think a deal is there. The rumour came from trusted sources and there's too much detail in it for it to be all smoke and mirrors. With that being said, the more I think about it, the more I believe that both Gainey and Lawton are waiting for the 27th to pass before pulling the trigger. And if he tears his acl in that game? |
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Post by Gogie on Jan 20, 2009 8:35:47 GMT -5
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the Habs are playing the Bolts in Tampa Bay on Jan 27th. If a deal is there, it wouldn't surprise me if both sides are waiting for that game to pass before they sign off on it. Vinny coming to Montreal would be enough of a circus for him, but imagine if he had to deal with the hoopla of going back to Tampa Bay as a Hab right away. Personally, I think a deal is there. The rumour came from trusted sources and there's too much detail in it for it to be all smoke and mirrors. With that being said, the more I think about it, the more I believe that both Gainey and Lawton are waiting for the 27th to pass before pulling the trigger. And if he tears his acl in that game? Exactly - once a deal is decided, the player is immediately excluded from further play with his "old" team. Neither side wants to risk jeopardizing the trade and usually neither side is stupid enough to consumate a trade these days without making it subject to a physical examination of the player(s) involved. |
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Post by MC Habber on Jan 20, 2009 13:46:04 GMT -5
I was looking at our roster as of next season and right now we look like this: Andrei Kostitsyn __________ Sergei Kostitsyn Max Pacioretty __________ __________ ___________ Maxim Lapierre __________ Georges Laraque ___________ __________ Markov ________ Hamrlik ________ Gorges ________ Carey Price Jaro Halak Filling in RFAs who will likely be back (though probably not all making the team), in grey: Andrei Kostitsyn Tomas Plekanec Sergei Kostitsyn Max Pacioretty __________ Matt D'AgostiniChris Higgins Maxim Lapierre Guillaume LatendresseGeorges Laraque Kyle Chipchura Greg StewartMarkov ________ Hamrlik ________ Gorges O'Byrne Carey Price Jaro Halak |
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Post by franko on Jan 20, 2009 14:04:23 GMT -5
Filling in RFAs who will likely be back (though probably not all making the team), in grey: Andrei Kostitsyn Tomas Plekanec Sergei Kostitsyn Max Pacioretty __________ Matt D'AgostiniChris Higgins Maxim Lapierre Guillaume LatendresseGeorges Laraque Kyle Chipchura Greg StewartWhat was it I said originally? Oh, ya . . . ouchThat is not a team that inspires me! |
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 20, 2009 16:56:10 GMT -5
Yep....that's been a chronic problem since our most recent Cup....forwards running around in our own zone...too tired to generate the offense needed. I say that as a generalization....but there is truth in it. Remember all those years of being hemmed in and horribly outshot and outchanced? Don't want to relive those. ...I would respecfully disagree. Our latest cup run we had a pretty ordinary defense corp but a pretty amazing center line with Damphousse and Muller both over 90 pts, Lebeau at 80+ and Carbonneau who was arguably the best shutdown center of his time. Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Haller, Brisebois......a mobile, responsible group in our own end....and that's what I'm talking about. I'd include Rob Ramage, but he played very little...8 reg. season, 7 playoff games. And from what I remember, Desjardins, Schneider, and Daigneault were also excellent puck movers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 20, 2009 17:10:40 GMT -5
...I would respecfully disagree. Our latest cup run we had a pretty ordinary defense corp but a pretty amazing center line with Damphousse and Muller both over 90 pts, Lebeau at 80+ and Carbonneau who was arguably the best shutdown center of his time. Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Haller, Brisebois......a mobile, responsible group in our own end....and that's what I'm talking about. I'd include Rob Ramage, but he played very little...8 reg. season, 7 playoff games. And from what I remember, Desjardins, Schneider, and Daigneault were also excellent puck movers. And how ... Desjardins was the key player Bob Clarke wanted in the Recchi trade. Jacques Demers once described him as a general out there. So we moved him ... ... would like to forget that circus. However, I remember a positive from the '93 Cup run. Demers decided to dress Donald Dufrenes (sp?) for what turned out to be the last game. All he wanted was for Donald to have a ring. And in keeping with the thread, do I think there's anything to these Lecavalier whispers? No ... unfortunately I don't. Buuuuuuuut .... if we can get him for what SJ gave up for Thornton, welllllllllllll then ... Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Jan 21, 2009 7:32:13 GMT -5
...I would respecfully disagree. Our latest cup run we had a pretty ordinary defense corp but a pretty amazing center line with Damphousse and Muller both over 90 pts, Lebeau at 80+ and Carbonneau who was arguably the best shutdown center of his time. Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Haller, Brisebois......a mobile, responsible group in our own end....and that's what I'm talking about. I'd include Rob Ramage, but he played very little...8 reg. season, 7 playoff games. And from what I remember, Desjardins, Schneider, and Daigneault were also excellent puck movers. As an interesting side note, I heard a good piece of trivia the other day .... the 1993 Habs are the only team to win the Stanley Cup without any of their own first rounders in the lineup. Now they had first rounders, but they were other teams first rounders (Muller, Damphousse, etc). I thought it odd and never checked the validity of it but I heard it on TV, so it has to be right ... right? ...  |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 21, 2009 8:23:59 GMT -5
...I would respecfully disagree. Our latest cup run we had a pretty ordinary defense corp but a pretty amazing center line with Damphousse and Muller both over 90 pts, Lebeau at 80+ and Carbonneau who was arguably the best shutdown center of his time. Desjardins, Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Haller, Brisebois......a mobile, responsible group in our own end....and that's what I'm talking about. I'd include Rob Ramage, but he played very little...8 reg. season, 7 playoff games. And from what I remember, Desjardins, Schneider, and Daigneault were also excellent puck movers. ...sure but we're far from talking All-Star defense, a guy like Desjardins was key to an otherwise pretty ordinary defense (like MArkov is) but the forward group and especially the centerline was way better that this edition. The future of the team's center line hinges on Plekanecs and that is a huuuuuge organizational problem. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 21, 2009 10:21:17 GMT -5
That's what keeps me coming back to the idea, Doc, even at the cost of Markov. Depth at centre is our biggest organizational weakness and is about to become even worse with the potential loss of Koivu and the serious regression this year from Plekanec. Past those guys you have Lapierre, Chipchura, and Ben Maxwell. Yikes. Then you add the fact that depth on the blueline is something we actually have, albeit unproven - Fischer, McDonagh, Weber, Carle, Emelin (eventually?), O'Byrne.
I'm still not convinced that Markov is the sticking point of the deal, that we could probably get Vinny without him if TB really wants to do the deal, but getting Lecavalier locked up solves a HUGE long term problem.
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2009 10:26:11 GMT -5
I agree about our lack of depth up the middle. It is an issue, and it's why Gainey has tried to address it. That said, if Markov has to be part of the deal BG better have a second trade ready to go. This team won't win the Cup without a Markov type, but it could win it without Lecavalier.
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Post by franko on Jan 21, 2009 11:14:39 GMT -5
I keep coming back to the cap hit and the long contract.
The cap is going to go down. Other teams have already discovered that if you have too much tied up in one player you are stuck. Do we want to be in the same situation?
If Vinny can carry the team for the next 7 years and keep us contenders, go for it. If he merely keeps us competitive, he isn't worth it.
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2009 11:35:29 GMT -5
I keep coming back to the cap hit and the long contract. The cap is going to go down. Other teams have already discovered that if you have too much tied up in one player you are stuck. Do we want to be in the same situation? If Vinny can carry the team for the next 7 years and keep us contenders, go for it. If he merely keeps us competitive, he isn't worth it. That's the biggest sticking point for me. I don't like the contract. What are BG's options though? Who out there could he get? Looking at the other teams I see: Ana - Getzlaf - locked up until 2013. Bos - Savard has ayear after this one and will be 32 when UFA - Kessel is RFA next year Cal - Cammalleri is UFA after this season Chi - Toews is RFA after next season, but you can bet he re-signs Det - Zetterberg is UFA this summer. They're talking, but it could be hard to re-sign him. Pho - Jokinen. Another year on his current deal. Pit - would they trade one of the two to get more balance? That's about it really. There are others, but few I'd consider. I don't think you can wait to see if Detroit manages to lock up Zetterberg. Do you wait a year to and then try and snag someone on an offer sheet? That's a big gamble. As hard as it is to find good puck moving defensemen, it might be harder to find that #1 center. If BG holds that philosophy though, he really needs to have another deal in place. Sure, we have lots of prospects on the blue line, but we can't put them all in the lineup at the same time. |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 21, 2009 12:28:51 GMT -5
Cal - Cammalleri is UFA after this season Cammalleri is on a crash course with Toronto. It's one of the worst kept secrets in the NHL that he wants to sign there. Frankly, I don't even think he's that good. He's like Tanguay and tends to disappear. Andy McDonald is UFA after this season. He's a quality player and probably attainable at $5-6M. Not a true #1 in the mythical modern NHL sense of the label, but a pretty good player to make a good 1-2-3 punch with Koivu and Plekanec if Vinny doesn't come. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 21, 2009 12:40:32 GMT -5
An interesting parallel that just struck me: Denis Savard to Montreal for Chris Chelios Denis Savard - drafted 3rd over-all
- QMJHL superstar
- high-scoring all-star center
- 10 seasons as a Blackhawk scoring 1013 pts/736 games
- traded at 29 yrs old
- high-profile Quebecois player
Vincent Lecavalier - drafted 1st over-all
- QMJHL superstar
- high-scoring all-star center
- 10 seasons as a Lightning scoring 646 pts/756 games
- 29 yrs old in April
- high-profile Quebecois player
Chris Chelios - high-profile 2-way all-star d-man
- 7 seasons as a Hab
- Norris-trophy winner in 88-89; twice more post-trade
- traded at 28 yrs old
Andrei Markov - high-profile 2-way all-star d-man
- 7 seasons as a Hab
- Norris candidate
- 30 yrs old
Many argue that the Savard/Chelios deal was a good one based SOLELY on the fact that the Habs won the cup 3 years after his acquisition. I hated the deal at the time and consider it a magnificent blunder. Savard was NOT instrumental in the cup-run, NOT a point-per-game player as a Hab, and of course was a Hab for ONLY 3 seasons; clearly a shadow of his former self. Chelios went on to win a FURTHER 2 Norris trophies and was a significant mainstay on the blueline for both Chicago and Detroit for a further NINETEEN seasons. He's still playing in the NHL at the age of FORTY SEVEN; 28 years after having been drafted. Markov without a doubt can NEVER match Chelios' longevity, but being a perrenial all-star that he is, a Norris-trophy may certainly be within his grasp. He shows zero signs of slowing down and is extremely integral in the Canadiens' blue-line corps both now and in the future. I'd hate to see history repeat itself here simply to satisfy a "dream" whose time has come and gone. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jan 21, 2009 13:40:48 GMT -5
An interesting parallel that just struck me: Denis Savard to Montreal for Chris Chelios Good research, CO. I guess they traded Gretzky, eh? Cheers. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 21, 2009 13:42:54 GMT -5
An interesting parallel that just struck me: Denis Savard to Montreal for Chris Chelios Good research, CO. I guess they traded Gretzky, eh? Cheers. Indeed, Pocklington did sell trade #99. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 21, 2009 14:22:39 GMT -5
Savard was NOT instrumental in the cup-run, Every player from that edition would contradict you CO. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 21, 2009 14:45:35 GMT -5
Savard was NOT instrumental in the cup-run, Every player from that edition would contradict you CO. Huh? Zero goals and 5 assists in 14 playoff games on a team whose forwards you claim are/were faaar superior to the current team??? Good Lord, even Ed Ronan outscored him in the same number of games played with 2G 3 A...his plus/minus was better too (for whatever that's worth). No way I'd call that being instrumental...moreover, how can he be considered instrumental in that cup-run if he didnt even suit-up in the cup-finals? |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 21, 2009 14:46:36 GMT -5
Every player from that edition would contradict you CO. Huh? Zero goals and 5 assists in 14 playoff games on a team whose forwards you claim are/were faaar superior to the current team??? Good Lord, even Ed Ronan outscored him in the same number of games played with 2G 3 A...his plus/minus was better too (for whatever that's worth). No way I'd call that being instrumental...moreover, how can he be considered instrumental in that cup-run if he didnt even suit-up in the cup-finals? Because I'd guess that contributions off the ice and on the bench don't count for nothing. |
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2009 14:47:36 GMT -5
Cal - Cammalleri is UFA after this season Cammalleri is on a crash course with Toronto. It's one of the worst kept secrets in the NHL that he wants to sign there. Frankly, I don't even think he's that good. He's like Tanguay and tends to disappear. Andy McDonald is UFA after this season. He's a quality player and probably attainable at $5-6M. Not a true #1 in the mythical modern NHL sense of the label, but a pretty good player to make a good 1-2-3 punch with Koivu and Plekanec if Vinny doesn't come. I don't think Calamari is all that either, but he's available at the end of the season, which is why I threw him in. |
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Post by blny on Jan 21, 2009 14:49:57 GMT -5
An interesting parallel that just struck me: Denis Savard to Montreal for Chris Chelios Denis Savard - drafted 3rd over-all
- QMJHL superstar
- high-scoring all-star center
- 10 seasons as a Blackhawk scoring 1013 pts/736 games
- traded at 29 yrs old
- high-profile Quebecois player
Vincent Lecavalier - drafted 1st over-all
- QMJHL superstar
- high-scoring all-star center
- 10 seasons as a Lightning scoring 646 pts/756 games
- 29 yrs old in April
- high-profile Quebecois player
Chris Chelios - high-profile 2-way all-star d-man
- 7 seasons as a Hab
- Norris-trophy winner in 88-89; twice more post-trade
- traded at 28 yrs old
Andrei Markov - high-profile 2-way all-star d-man
- 7 seasons as a Hab
- Norris candidate
- 30 yrs old
Many argue that the Savard/Chelios deal was a good one based SOLELY on the fact that the Habs won the cup 3 years after his acquisition. I hated the deal at the time and consider it a magnificent blunder. Savard was NOT instrumental in the cup-run, NOT a point-per-game player as a Hab, and of course was a Hab for ONLY 3 seasons; clearly a shadow of his former self. Chelios went on to win a FURTHER 2 Norris trophies and was a significant mainstay on the blueline for both Chicago and Detroit for a further NINETEEN seasons. He's still playing in the NHL at the age of FORTY SEVEN; 28 years after having been drafted. Markov without a doubt can NEVER match Chelios' longevity, but being a perrenial all-star that he is, a Norris-trophy may certainly be within his grasp. He shows zero signs of slowing down and is extremely integral in the Canadiens' blue-line corps both now and in the future. I'd hate to see history repeat itself here simply to satisfy a "dream" whose time has come and gone. An interesting comparison, but Savy was passed his prime when got him. The same probably can't be said for Vinny. |
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