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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 13:09:07 GMT -5
I keep looking at it from Tampa's perspective, particularly from the perspective of ownership and the impact on the fan base, and it just doesn't seem worth it. Vinny is young enough to ride out a 2-3 year rebuilding plan, they already traded away Richards and Dan Boyle, then there was the Barry Melrose fiasco... it would be very hard to spin this in a positive light, particularly in a market where hockey doesn't have a huge pull on the population. Right now the fans in Tampa love Vinny and they hate ownership. How is this going to help? I dunno! But they've been in the basement for 2 straight years WITH Vinny and they look around and can't really see where help is gonna from. They already a coach change, so what do you do? Leap of faith? Prey that more of the same will eventually bring you good results... Maybe they feel that a new approach is needed. Demolish the core, get good prospects and picks and start over fresh. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 13:19:42 GMT -5
Fact is, when he had a chance as an UFA, he chose to sign with Tampa. I recalled you being pissed with him too. I won't bother linking to your reaction.  I was pissed indeed that he did not chose to be a hero in his home province but rather chose to stay in hockey Alcatraz but even back then Vinny always mentioned that it was either Montreal or Tampa. The notion I dispell is that of Lecavalier never wanting to have anything to do with Montreal. Yes he preferred Tampa but that does not automatically mean he'd NEVER want to be here. At that I trust Jacques Demers, who's a personnal friend of the Lecavalier familly, and I also trust direct quotes from Lecavalier himself, way more than Mac. I would have been happy to see him chose us back then but would welcome him now nonetheless. A 28yr old big physical center with tons of offensive talent? Bring it on for sure. And to top it all of he's classy, charming and a local kid... I know I could forgive him  |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 13:44:13 GMT -5
Fact is, when he had a chance as an UFA, he chose to sign with Tampa. I recalled you being pissed with him too. I won't bother linking to your reaction. I was pissed indeed that he did not chose to be a hero in his home province but rather chose to stay in hockey Alcatraz but even back then Vinny always mentioned that it was either Montreal or Tampa. The notion I dispell is that of Lecavalier never wanting to have anything to do with Montreal. Yes he preferred Tampa but that does not automatically mean he'd NEVER want to be here. At that I trust Jacques Demers, who's a personnal friend of the Lecavalier familly, and I also trust direct quotes from Lecavalier himself, way more than Mac. I would have been happy to see him chose us back then but would welcome him now nonetheless. A 28yr old big physical center with tons of offensive talent? Bring it on for sure. And to top it all of he's classy, charming and a local kid... I know I could forgive him He's no longer a "local", nor is he a "kid". He could very-well be damaged goods and to top it off....he's snubbed us and would ONLY be coming to Montreal because he HAS to, not because he WANTS to or EVER wanted to. It's been written that he "pondered" the notion...for a day...too funny. Don't get me wrong, for the RIGHT package, I'd do the deal....hell, for the "right package" I'd do ANY deal; but where THIS deal is concerned, if it means Markov going to Tampa, I'd pass...cripes, I'd even pass if they wanted Gorges. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 14:01:07 GMT -5
Out of curiousity I checked his site .... he says that he has three sources telling him that Montreal is very close to sealing the deal. However, here is where the Markov rumours are coming from as far as I am concerned, he says: 1) Vinny will probably skate as a Hab and wear #4 in the ASG 2) A current Hab will skate as a Lightning in the ASG 3) The "key" is that Montreal will have to move one of the big two d-men. So ... that essentially boils down to (if one is to believe Eklund) that Markov OR Komi (both are in that ASG) will be traded. He further states: 4) Montreal looks like they are prepared to part with one of them. And then he goes on to state seven teams are seriously interested in Vinny (just to cover his bases , you know) .... the Rangers, the Canucks, the Bruins, the Leafs, the Flyers, the Kings, and the Flames... If Markov + OTHERS are going the other way, we're f^@&'d! For a guy that's REPEATEDLY dismissed the notion of EVER wanting to be a Hab...possesses a ridiculous contract...has averaged 67....S I X T Y S E V E N points...throughout his 9 seasons playing alongside the likes of Richards, St. Louis in that pressure-filled, hockey-hotbed of Tampa Bay...ALL this and with a possible BUM SHOULDER!!?? Just look at the last 2 seasons - 200 points. hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=26809 |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 14:07:49 GMT -5
If Markov + OTHERS are going the other way, we're f^@&'d! For a guy that's REPEATEDLY dismissed the notion of EVER wanting to be a Hab...possesses a ridiculous contract...has averaged 67....S I X T Y S E V E N points...throughout his 9 seasons playing alongside the likes of Richards, St. Louis in that pressure-filled, hockey-hotbed of Tampa Bay...ALL this and with a possible BUM SHOULDER!!?? Just look at the last 2 seasons - 200 points. hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=26809I have; good thing too, otherwise his average points per season would plummet to 57. He's a good hockey-player...very good, in fact. I'm praying that our Habs don't get raped in acquiring him. In truth, if a deal does see us acquiring Lecavalier, I have no doubt in my mind the Canadiens are going to overpay...waaaaaaaaaay overpay. I'll pray, regardless. |
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Post by OopyDoopy on Jan 15, 2009 14:13:44 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade.
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 14:14:37 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. Source, please? |
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Post by OopyDoopy on Jan 15, 2009 14:17:39 GMT -5
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Post by blny on Jan 15, 2009 14:19:17 GMT -5
If they want Markov I pass. He's our best defender, and defenders are more important. IMO, in this age where puck moving dmen who can pass very well are key, he has more value than an elite center. I was balking at the idea of Gorges, no way I trade Markov.
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Post by mississaugaslasher on Jan 15, 2009 14:22:12 GMT -5
100 pt. players are rare...#1 centers even moreso. If we can make this happen using only prospects and replaceable roster players then why not go for it?
Remember the 100th year? Going for the cup and all? Lecavalier hoisting the cup wearing bleu blanc et rouge would be a pretty nice cover shot for Sports Illustrated.
Keep in mind he doesn't just just disappear next year - this is a guy you can build a team around for many years to come.
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Post by Polarice on Jan 15, 2009 14:22:12 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. If thats what they want, get the deal done, we can pick up more D-men, a player like Vinny comes once every 20 years!!! |
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Post by mississaugaslasher on Jan 15, 2009 14:23:53 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. Not cool...Markov is not a replaceable player...ever. The other two pieces I'd be ok with. |
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Post by Polarice on Jan 15, 2009 14:26:14 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. Not cool...Markov is not a replaceable player...ever. The other two pieces I'd be ok with. Meh, we can throw a player and a pick to Toronto for one of their Dmen. |
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Post by blny on Jan 15, 2009 14:28:25 GMT -5
Not cool...Markov is not a replaceable player...ever. The other two pieces I'd be ok with. Meh, we can throw a player and a pick to Toronto for one of their Dmen. I don't think Kaberle is as good as Markov. He may be slightly flashier, but Markov is better in his own end. I'm extremely hesitant to part with Andrei for almost any deal. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 14:29:42 GMT -5
I'd even pass if they wanted Gorges. ...if you wouldn't give a 3rd pair dmen for a franchise center than you should probably admit to yourself that deep down you don't want that player... That being said I do agree that dealing Markov would hurt a lot. But from a TB standpoint I would think they'd try to at least have one or 2 thoroughbreds included in whatever package. From their perspective though, due to age, salary and contract length, Markov doesn't strike me as a player to build around but if they want to appeal to the fans, getting back one of league best dmen in exchange for the fan favorite is easier to sell... |
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 14:31:56 GMT -5
first the Sundin thread falls . . . then the Dykhuis thread . . .
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 14:33:33 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. If thats what they want, get the deal done, we can pick up more D-men, a player like Vinny comes once every 20 years!!! Agreed. Do the deal then turn around and package a bunch Higgins and Plekanecs to get Bouwmester. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 14:37:13 GMT -5
100 pt. players are rare...#1 centers even moreso. ...and we haven't had a player with this kind of marketability since Guy Lafleur. From a hockey AND business standpoint he is Gold. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 14:39:23 GMT -5
I think they are just fishing. BG asked about Lecavalier - TB says they want Markov. I don't think Gainey will include his best D man in a deal. This is a team that gave Brad Richards away for a backup goalie & a couple of spare parts. Giving TB relief from that contract sshould count for something. And IF Gainey is talking to Tampa the next thing he should do is tell the big mouth on their side of the talks to shut up. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 14:41:22 GMT -5
If thats what they want, get the deal done, we can pick up more D-men, a player like Vinny comes once every 20 years!!! Agreed. Do the deal then turn around and package a bunch Higgins and Plekanecs to get Bouwmester. Markov is a non-starter for me & Bouwmeester is just another UFA to ad to Gainey's list of people he hasn't started to negotiate with. |
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 14:42:04 GMT -5
Hmmm . . . we want the ocean and we're willing to trade a bucket of sand, is that it?
If we want that honkin' big forward/centre we'll either have to draft high [which means we fall low] or we pay big. Not sure that I'd want to ship Markov off with Subban . I know, CO -- make it Komi and you're fine . . . fact is that whoever winds up with Vinny will be paying big. But if he is the missing ingredient we gotta give it a shot. And draft picks [no matter how high because they aren't going to be as high as TBay's are] aren't going to cut it.
My concern: that we pay so much that we become a Flyer-clone a la Lindros
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 14:47:11 GMT -5
This is a team that gave Brad Richards away for a backup goalie & a couple of spare parts. Perhaps they have learned their lesson. After all, Mad Mike Milbury isn't the GM there. Something . . . not everything. That is why I wonder about the possibility of the trade in the first place. Gainey holds his cards close and would undoubtedly have told his counterpart to do the same. If his counterpart is not then he is blabbing to drive the price up [hoping for counter offers] and methinks BG will quickly drop out. |
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Post by Polarice on Jan 15, 2009 14:49:33 GMT -5
Hmmm . . . we want the ocean and we're willing to trade a bucket of sand, is that it? If we want that honkin' big forward/centre we'll either have to draft high [which means we fall low] or we pay big. Not sure that I'd want to ship Markov off with Subban . I know, CO -- make it Komi and you're fine . . . fact is that whoever winds up with Vinny will be paying big. But if he is the missing ingredient we gotta give it a shot. And draft picks [no matter how high because they aren't going to be as high as TBay's are] aren't going to cut it.
My concern: that we pay so much that we become a Flyer-clone a la LindrosIf we can get Vinny for just one roster player, even Markov, then I don't see why the deal isn't already done. Pick up some D-men at the trade dead line, get rid of them during the summer, sign a top 4 guy, and bring in some prospects. I believe Emlin is coming here next year as well. |
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Post by Skilly on Jan 15, 2009 14:55:20 GMT -5
Markov, Subban and first according to Al Strachan is what Tampa wants if they trade. We'd better start sending the kids to Hamilton then.... pronto... (and yet they recall Stewart?) ... Vinny is 6.875M (this year, next year he is 7.727M) on the cap, and Markov is 5.75M. When we acquire Vinny, he'll have 3.4375M cap space remaining, which we have to find room for. Trading Markov frees up 2.875M. And we have 0.552 cap space left, which is 1.104M in annual cap space .... So it works, since we'd have 3.979M to draw from .... ... Now I ask, what is Stewart's cap-hit? Because we only have room if this deal were to happen tomorrow, for a player making 0.54M per year .... |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 15, 2009 14:58:36 GMT -5
Agreed. Do the deal then turn around and package a bunch Higgins and Plekanecs to get Bouwmester. So all up people are willing to part with Higgins, Plekanec, Markov, Subban, at least 2 1st round picks, likely Gorges, McDonagh and a depth guy or two like Begin/Dandenault/Stewart to get Lecavalier and Bouwmeester?  Where do I sign?  |
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Post by OopyDoopy on Jan 15, 2009 15:05:28 GMT -5
I think they are just fishing. BG asked about Lecavalier - TB says they want Markov. I don't think Gainey will include his best D man in a deal. This is a team that gave Brad Richards away for a backup goalie & a couple of spare parts. Giving TB relief from that contract sshould count for something. And IF Gainey is talking to Tampa the next thing he should do is tell the big mouth on their side of the talks to shut up. Al Strachan said a formal offer was made from Gainey last night and Tampa countered with, If we trade Lecavalier we want Markov, Subban and your 1st. So either Tampa is more serious or is using Gainey like Atlanta did with Hossa. I think the best shot to get Lecavalier will be if Lecavalier says he wants to go to Montreal, if he lets Tampa decide where then the chances are not good in my opinion. I think Gainey is to conservative to trade Markov and I am not sure i would want to see both Markov and Subban traded, even for Lacavalier. But that being said if it does happen I will like a lot of others be happy that the elusive big center is now acquired. But it is Al Strachan after all.  |
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Post by Polarice on Jan 15, 2009 15:06:36 GMT -5
Agreed. Do the deal then turn around and package a bunch Higgins and Plekanecs to get Bouwmester. So all up people are willing to part with Higgins, Plekanec, Markov, Subban, at least 2 1st round picks, likely Gorges, McDonagh and a depth guy or two like Begin/Dandenault/Stewart to get Lecavalier and Bouwmeester? Where do I sign? lol, where do you get all those guys? Tampa wants Markov and Subban and a pick. Bouwmeester, we could probably get with just higgins and a pick. Depth guys go to playoff contenders not non-playoff teams. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:27:07 GMT -5
I'd even pass if they wanted Gorges. ...if you wouldn't give a 3rd pair dmen for a franchise center than you should probably admit to yourself that deep down you don't want that player... That being said I do agree that dealing Markov would hurt a lot. But from a TB standpoint I would think they'd try to at least have one or 2 thoroughbreds included in whatever package. From their perspective though, due to age, salary and contract length, Markov doesn't strike me as a player to build around but if they want to appeal to the fans, getting back one of league best dmen in exchange for the fan favorite is easier to sell... First-off, he's faaar from a #5, 6 as you suggest. Gorges is arguably OUR 3rd-best defenceman after Markov/Hamrlik. Second, OF COURSE i would trade Gorges to Tampa for Vinny. Where have I stated otherwise? |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:28:32 GMT -5
Meh, we can throw a player and a pick to Toronto for one of their Dmen. I don't think Kaberle is as good as Markov. He may be slightly flashier, but Markov is better in his own end. I'm extremely hesitant to part with Andrei for almost any deal. Markov is ALSO younger and cheaper. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:30:24 GMT -5
100 pt. players are rare...#1 centers even moreso. He's done it once in 9 seasons and moreover, on THIS team WITHOUT puck-moving support from the rear-guard will NEVER accomplish. |
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