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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:32:56 GMT -5
...and we haven't had a player with this kind of marketability since Guy Lafleur. Absolutely...Montreal would go berserk! |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 15:35:29 GMT -5
Second, OF COURSE i would trade Gorges to Tampa for Vinny. Where have I stated otherwise? here: ...cripes, I'd even pass if they wanted Gorges. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:36:08 GMT -5
My concern: that we pay so much that we become a Flyer-clone a la Lindros Precisely. In truth, if a deal does see us acquiring Lecavalier, I have no doubt in my mind the Canadiens are going to overpay...waaaaaaaaaay overpay. |
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:42:04 GMT -5
Second, OF COURSE i would trade Gorges to Tampa for Vinny. Where have I stated otherwise? here: ...cripes, I'd even pass if they wanted Gorges. Well sheesh...obviously when I typed that it was in addition to the other players proposed in this deal. |
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Post by blny on Jan 15, 2009 15:43:14 GMT -5
Vinny's production is down this year, and Dan Boyle is gone. Coincidence?
You need puck moving defencemen in this league. They're paramount. Vinny doesn't have that this year. Trade Markov to get him and we don't have one for him.
I don't like making trades that mean we have to make another one. If we get Vinny it should be the final piece, not the start of a slew of deals.
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Post by clear observer on Jan 15, 2009 15:45:28 GMT -5
Vinny's production is down this year, and Dan Boyle is gone. Coincidence? You need puck moving defencemen in this league. They're paramount. Vinny doesn't have that this year. Trade Markov to get him and we don't have one for him. I don't like making trades that mean we have to make another one. If we get Vinny it should be the final piece, not the start of a slew of deals. Yep....aaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's gut a bum shoulder. Again, without puck-moving d-men, Vinny would NEVER see 100 pts in a Habs uniform. In fact, #87 from the Pens would be hard-pressed to. Bank on it. |
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 16:13:32 GMT -5
Just think . . . we are going to have almost a whole week to flog this to death during the all-star break when there is no hockey [OK, there will be CHL hockey, but no NHL hockey until the 27th (that pond hockey thing during the break is NOT hockey!!!)].
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 16:18:35 GMT -5
...and why don't we have a 100pts player despite relying on puck-moving extraordinaire Markov ?
...as for the Lindros years in Philly, I seem to remember that the Flyers were a highly competitive team with him.
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 16:18:53 GMT -5
100 pt. players are rare...#1 centers even moreso. He's done it once in 9 seasons and moreover, on THIS team WITHOUT puck-moving support from the rear-guard will NEVER accomplish. he did it once , yes. But he had 92 last year. His two best years were the last two - 200 points. Still, I would not include Makov. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 16:21:21 GMT -5
...and why don't we have a 100pts player despite relying on puck-moving extraordinaire Markov ? ... I may be falling into your trap Doc -  - but none of the players on the current Habs have the talent to score 100 points. Markov can't turn them into big point producers. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 15, 2009 16:43:00 GMT -5
Wow. I get some work done for a few hours and all hell breaks loose on this thread...
I agree with whoever said that this will not be a situation where Gainey gets played like he did with Hossa. If Vinny is traded it will be to the team HE wants to play for. It would be insulting to trade his 11-year contract to a team/city he doesn't want to be. I think it's either Montreal or he doesn't get traded.
I gotta say no if it means dealing Markov. From the standpoint of this the 100th year of the Habs, with all the expiring contracts, with the pressure to win NOW I don't think gaining Vinny and losing Markov gives you enough, if any, net improvement that makes us an obviously better team. Indeed losing our best puck mover, our point guy on the PP, the leader of a defensive corps that is already below average for a team with Cup aspirations seems like a high risk move.
But then Gainey is also looking at the next 2-3 years. Is losing Markov now a price worth paying to bring Lecavalier for the long term, even if it means our chances of winning this year may be reduced? With the prospect of losing Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay and possibly Komisarek for NOTHING at the end of the year, Gainey may feel that this is a move he has to make for the future regardless of its impact this year. And he has good dmen in the pipeline, but they are not NHL ready.
Gee, now I'm not so sure......
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 17:32:53 GMT -5
...and why don't we have a 100pts player despite relying on puck-moving extraordinaire Markov ? ... I may be falling into your trap Doc - - but none of the players on the current Habs have the talent to score 100 points. Markov can't turn them into big point producers. Not a trap jkr, just wanted to underline that a good puck moving dmen does not turn poopoo into gold... Markov greatly contributes, of course, but I don't buy that argument that without him, Vinny would cease to be the dominant player thathe is. And I agree with everyone who claims that dealing Markov would hurt. It would hurt a lot, maybe even a small and momentary step back but Vinny to Montreal is something that goes beyond many things... Back when Vinny was pondering his choices, Jean Beliveau said he'd certainly consider letting him wear number 4. That's how big it is... ...in fact the one thing that titillates me is that it might get too big. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 17:41:33 GMT -5
Gee, now I'm not so sure...... okay let me make the pitch Look at this: Tanguay - Lecavalier - Kovalev Pacioretty - Koivu - D'agostini Higgins - Lapierre - Latendresse Laraque - Begin - Kostopoulos Bouwmester - Komisarek Hamrlik- Georges Bouillon - whocares Price Halak Tell me you're not excited BH... Tell me this lineup could not win a friggin cup or 2... |
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 18:15:33 GMT -5
...as for the Lindros years in Philly, I seem to remember that the Flyers were a highly competitive team with him. yes, but how many Cups did they win? |
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 18:16:21 GMT -5
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Post by blny on Jan 15, 2009 18:16:25 GMT -5
Bouwmeester, because of his age and the hype around his name, is gonna command a contract that is likely as much or more than Markov's. I don't think he's a better player either.
If you're gonna trade Markov I hope the plan is to sign Komisarek. They're different players obviously, but to lose both inside of a year means a HUGE change to our corps.
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Post by jkr on Jan 15, 2009 18:16:59 GMT -5
...as for the Lindros years in Philly, I seem to remember that the Flyers were a highly competitive team with him. yes, but how many Cups did they win? One Finals appearance - that's it. Swept by Detroit. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 15, 2009 18:27:13 GMT -5
...as for the Lindros years in Philly, I seem to remember that the Flyers were a highly competitive team with him. yes, but how many Cups did they win? ...if that's the bar, how many cups did we win with Markov? How many finals? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Markov completely disapear last year in the playoffs ? |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jan 15, 2009 20:39:54 GMT -5
Gee, now I'm not so sure...... okay let me make the pitch Look at this: Tanguay - Lecavalier - Kovalev Pacioretty - Koivu - D'agostini Higgins - Lapierre - Latendresse Laraque - Begin - Kostopoulos Bouwmester - Komisarek Hamrlik- Georges Bouillon - whocares Price Halak Tell me you're not excited BH... Tell me this lineup could not win a friggin cup or 2... Well first you have to figure that we do the Vinny deal and nothing else. Obviously Markov would be the main giveup in the trade but it would probably cost us another forward along the lines of SKost or Latendresse. Maybe we get a lesser dman back from Tampa - Paul Ranger? Steve Eminger? AKost/Lecavalier/Kovalev Tanguay/Koivu/Latendresse Higgins/Lang/D'Agostini Pacioretty/Lapierre/Kostopoulos Begin Gorges/Komisarek Hamrlik/Eminger Bouillon/Brisebois Looks OK up front, but boy that back line is hurting. I hate to make the Vinny trade and then feel we need to make another move to make it work. Maybe Gainey could pick up a veteran dman on the cheap at the deadline. |
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Post by franko on Jan 15, 2009 22:27:00 GMT -5
yes, but how many Cups did they win? ...if that's the bar, how many cups did we win with Markov? How many finals? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Markov completely disapear last year in the playoffs ? Well, Doc, imo that is the bar! But I think you've misread me: My concern: that we pay so much that we become a Flyer-clone a la Lindros I didn't suggest Markov has to stay; it was Markov plus Subban plus picks plus is too much. I don't want to over-pay for one player unless that player guarantees a Cup -- we're already "mostly" competitive. |
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Post by Cranky on Jan 15, 2009 22:41:09 GMT -5
Vinny and company denied everything. If I had a dollar for every Vinny thread, I could bail out the porn industry single handed.....
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Post by roke on Jan 16, 2009 0:13:21 GMT -5
Vinny and company denied everything. If I had a dollar for every Vinny thread, I could bail out the porn industry single handed..... Has Vinny denied anything? I haven't read anything recently from him where he said something in such a frank manner. Lawton did deny that Vinny was going to be traded, but I don't put much stock in Tampa's ownership or management after what transpired with Boyle. If I were to gauge my expectations, I would say I'm cautiously optimistic, but not really expecting much at this moment |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 16, 2009 0:38:56 GMT -5
I don't think Gainey is going to trade Markov. Firstly, I wonder if Andrei has a NTC? Secondly, Friedman, in the above article, makes some very good points, which are quite reminiscent of what's happening in business and life generally. How much does a good car cost now compared to a year ago? How about your house? Getting rid of debit is a huge priority for individuals and businesses. I think Tampa needs to move Vinny. Those twits have messed up the franchise, (or took over a messed up franchise which can't succeed in Florida anyway and made it worse), and they have to reduce their debt, namely Vinny's contract. This is a time when a business with cash, can pick up their opposition at fire sale prices. WAMU, Merrill Lynch, etc. Bob is not going to give up a key to the team for Vinny, cause he won't have to. We'll lose a better than average NHL'r, (Higgins or Pleks...ok, ok, some will argue they're not 'better than average', but you know what I mean), and some cheap prospects. The prospects have no debt attached to them yet, so Tampa can afford them. Higgins or Pleks (insert name) replaces the body and a couple of draft choices (say a 1st and 2nd in 2010) placate the masses ["see all the players we got for just one guy!?].
I predict Pleks, Subban, a 1st and 2nd in 2010, maybe even O'Byrne, another body on D with some upside (I still like him despite his bad start this year).
Laid it all out for ya. No charge.
PS. One possible change. The Habs might move Tanguay, if only because they have to drop salary and Tanguay is a free agent at the end of the year, so Tampa wouldn't have a future obligation.
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 16, 2009 1:06:37 GMT -5
Markov has a NTC in that he can only be traded to a pre-selected group of teams (maybe selected annually, or hard-written into his contract.. not sure). So as far as we know, TB could be on that list, which means he could be traded there.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jan 16, 2009 1:29:46 GMT -5
11 year contract? No thanks.
$7.7M cap hit until he is 63 years old in these uncertain times? No thanks.
Giving up a ton of players/potential? No thanks.
I still think Gainey is quietly looking blueline.
Makes no sense to trade one of the existing top two away. The team cannot go through a whole new "game plan" to counter one big hole in the backend. Just not Carbo's style, as he does not even like changing game to game.
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Post by jkr on Jan 16, 2009 8:39:11 GMT -5
Vinny and company denied everything. If I had a dollar for every Vinny thread, I could bail out the porn industry single handed..... Has Vinny denied anything? I haven't read anything recently from him where he said something in such a frank manner. Lawton did deny that Vinny was going to be traded, but I don't put much stock in Tampa's ownership or management after what transpired with Boyle. I heard the Lawton thing. What he said was that VL would not be traded "any time soon". Doesn't exactly put out the fire. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 16, 2009 8:41:20 GMT -5
11 year contract? No thanks. $7.7M cap hit until he is 63 years old in these uncertain times? No thanks. Giving up a ton of players/potential? No thanks. I still think Gainey is quietly looking blueline. BG was ready to hand a 7-8 year deal to Briere who is 3 years older & not the same player. He probably would have offered a very long term deal to Lecavalier if he ever became a UFA. |
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Post by blny on Jan 16, 2009 9:11:54 GMT -5
I don't think Gainey is going to trade Markov. Firstly, I wonder if Andrei has a NTC? Secondly, Friedman, in the above article, makes some very good points, which are quite reminiscent of what's happening in business and life generally. How much does a good car cost now compared to a year ago? How about your house? Getting rid of debit is a huge priority for individuals and businesses. I think Tampa needs to move Vinny. Those twits have messed up the franchise, (or took over a messed up franchise which can't succeed in Florida anyway and made it worse), and they have to reduce their debt, namely Vinny's contract. This is a time when a business with cash, can pick up their opposition at fire sale prices. WAMU, Merrill Lynch, etc. Bob is not going to give up a key to the team for Vinny, cause he won't have to. We'll lose a better than average NHL'r, (Higgins or Pleks...ok, ok, some will argue they're not 'better than average', but you know what I mean), and some cheap prospects. The prospects have no debt attached to them yet, so Tampa can afford them. Higgins or Pleks (insert name) replaces the body and a couple of draft choices (say a 1st and 2nd in 2010) placate the masses ["see all the players we got for just one guy!?]. I predict Pleks, Subban, a 1st and 2nd in 2010, maybe even O'Byrne, another body on D with some upside (I still like him despite his bad start this year). Laid it all out for ya. No charge. PS. One possible change. The Habs might move Tanguay, if only because they have to drop salary and Tanguay is a free agent at the end of the year, so Tampa wouldn't have a future obligation. All good points and logic 17. I'm with you on Obi. He's had a tough year, and it's hard to give up on a guy with that kind of size and mobility. I do think he ends up putting it together. Whether or not that's in our uniform is another question. I think we can afford to move him as part of the right package though. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 16, 2009 12:18:25 GMT -5
From Lecavalier:
"I really don't know what management thinks, I don't know their goals. What I do know is that I feel the support of the community here, to which I tried to give as much as I could for the last 10 years. I don't know if the new owners are aware of that"
Evidently Vinny wanted to stay in Tampa, forever, commited himself to it and now feels betrayed. He told this to Rejean Tremblay
"...when I signed that contract, it was like wedding vows. Now it's like discovering your wife in bed with another men, during your honeymoon..."
heck, when he met them, they only promise the owners could make was that he would be consulted in case of trade... Lawton can act like none of this was true, he's evidently lying.
In this day and age where players are always criticized for being money driven mercenaries, the one who acted truly loyal got the shaft...
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Post by HFTO on Jan 16, 2009 12:32:16 GMT -5
Vinny's shoulder is still ailing him.
HFTO
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- but none of the players on the current Habs have the talent to score 100 points. Markov can't turn them into big point producers.
