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Post by CrocRob on Feb 23, 2009 14:44:43 GMT -5
<edit> Dis asked me to make this the Trade Deadline rumour collection thread. However, many others have asked that rumours be put in the threads already created for several players like Pronger, Bouwmeester, Jokinen, etc. So if people wouldn't mind posting rumours in the individual threads if they apply, and here aswell or otherwise, that'd be great. </edit> I was looking through one of Scott Cullen's columns and found these at the bottom. Not sure why they were posted by Scott as he's not a journalist, but they all seem to be coming from various other publications. tsn.ca/columnists/scott_cullen/?ID=267960TRADE RUMOURS - The Minneapolis Star-Tribune suggests that the Wild may have to consider moving goaltender Niklas Backstrom if he can't be signed to a contract extension.
- According to the New York Post, Ducks defenceman Scott Niedermayer has an understanding with Ducks management that he won't be dealt unless he requests it.
- The Montreal Gazette reports that the Canadiens have been shopping winger Alex Kovalev since the beginning of February, without any takers.
- The Denver Post had the Bruins scouting Avalanche defencemen Jordan Leopold, Brett Clark and Ruslan Salei. With Bruins GM Peter Chiarelli admitting he has a wishlist that includes eight names heading into the deadline, the Boston Globe picks eight for the Bruins to target, including: Chris Pronger, Keith Tkachuk, Erik Cole, Jay Bouwmeester, Tomas Kaberle, Nik Antropov, Dominic Moore and Fredrik Modin.
- As the Ducks embark on a six-game road trip, theLos Angeles Times suggests that Chris Pronger might not return to Anaheim with his teammates, noting that the Ducks should be happy to get a good young player and a first-round pick in return. Depending on the calibre of the young player, the Ducks may be able to get more than that.
- According to the Ottawa Sun, the Sabres may have to consider moving ever-injured Tim Connolly, who is playing well while he's healthy, but will be an unrestricted free agent in the summer.
- Amid widespread reports that Maple Leafs defenceman Tomas Kaberle has a list of at least ten teams to which he would accept a trade, the Toronto Sun notes that it's believed all are in the Eastern Conference.
- The Delaware County Times reports that the Flyers may want to consider Nikolai Khabibulin if, as rumoured, he's available from the Blackhawks. The paper also has Flyers GM Paul Holmgren working the phones with Florida and Anaheim as well as Chicago.
- The Winnipeg Sun mentions that Canucks goaltending prospect Cory Schneider could be trade bait as the deadline approaches.
- The Tennessean reports that Predators defenceman Ville Koistinen, a healthy scratch over the last eight games, wants to be traded.
- According to the Tampa Tribune, the Lightning have been mentioned in a couple of rumours, with Vaclav Prospal rumoured to Columbus (seems like a long-term deal for the Jackets to accept) and Martin St. Louis to Pittsburgh. The natural exchange for St. Louis would figure to be a package including Ryan Whitney.
- The Ottawa Sun reports that the Coyotes have shopped Olli Jokinen, Derek Morris and Ed Jovanovski. The New York Post reports that the Devils may have interest in Morris or Jovanovski.
- The Bucks County Courier Times says that the Flyers' rumoured interest in Chris Pronger won't subside, though it would require the Flyers to ship out significant salaries in order to create room. One Flyer mentioned as possible trade bait is third-line winger Scottie Upshall.
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Post by The New Guy on Feb 23, 2009 15:03:39 GMT -5
Most of these are out of the papers, which means their credability is low IMHO. However, if Pronger is availble for a first and a youngster - Gainey, give him Higgins and the first and lets get it done.
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Post by blny on Feb 23, 2009 15:38:35 GMT -5
Pronger is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Anaheim. I don't know if he has a NTC, but I wouldn't want anyone around that doesn't want to be here.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 23, 2009 15:49:11 GMT -5
Pronger is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Anaheim. I don't know if he has a NTC, but I wouldn't want anyone around that doesn't want to be here. I'd move on if this is, indeed, the case. - According to the Tampa Tribune, the Lightning have been mentioned in a couple of rumours, with Vaclav Prospal rumoured to Columbus (seems like a long-term deal for the Jackets to accept) and Martin St. Louis to Pittsburgh. The natural exchange for St. Louis would figure to be a package including Ryan Whitney. [/i][/quote] Prospal or St. Louis wouldn't be bad acquisitions, but they don't address our toughness issue. Mind you, St. Louis in Montreal colours would be just fine with me. Noticed also how Lecavalier's name is conveniently left off any rumour list. Cheers.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 23, 2009 15:49:30 GMT -5
Pronger is on record saying he doesn't want to leave Anaheim. I don't know if he has a NTC, but I wouldn't want anyone around that doesn't want to be here. He does not.
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Post by Willie Dog on Feb 25, 2009 17:34:57 GMT -5
On Spector's site there is a rumour that Brian Murray might be shopping Chris Neil around. He irritates me with the goofy look and missing teeth, but is the type of mid to heavyweight we need and he can play hockey, score, hit. Would look good with Lappy and Lats IMO.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 25, 2009 23:49:05 GMT -5
Strachan is saying right now on HHT that Vancouver is pursuing BOTH Bouwmeester and Gaborik, with the intent to trade for both. That's ballsy if Gillis can pull it off.
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Post by roke on Feb 25, 2009 23:52:33 GMT -5
Strachan is saying right now on HHT that Vancouver is pursuing BOTH Bouwmeester and Gaborik, with the intent to trade for both. That's ballsy if Gillis can pull it off. I don't see how he can pull it off redscull, according to nhlscap (I pretend that it's not on hockeybuzz... leave me alone) the Canucks are 400k under the cap, which projects to what, $2m in "current" cap space? Actually, forget this cap crunching stuff, I'm in way over my head.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 26, 2009 0:05:17 GMT -5
Strachan is saying right now on HHT that Vancouver is pursuing BOTH Bouwmeester and Gaborik, with the intent to trade for both. That's ballsy if Gillis can pull it off. I don't see how he can pull it off redscull, according to nhlscap (I pretend that it's not on hockeybuzz... leave me alone) the Canucks are 400k under the cap, which projects to what, $2m in "current" cap space? Actually, forget this cap crunching stuff, I'm in way over my head. No, Vancouver has already saved 2.4M under the cap, which is something akin to $8 or $9M in annual salary. Gaborik is also on LTIR, which means Vancouver could probably do it depending on the specific rules about LTIR.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 26, 2009 11:48:59 GMT -5
Please remember this is Eklund Bruce Garrioch. A bit of older news I think: ================================================================== Captain Canadien? Habs mulling a trade for Ryan Smyth ... Pronger's on the block, whether he likes it or not
By BRUCE GARRIOCH
Are the Montreal Canadiens eyeing Captain Canada? With only three wins in their past 16 games -- including yesterday's victory over the Senators -- GM Bob Gainey might not be done dealing after acquiring veteran defenceman Mathieu Schneider this past week. League sources say a possible solution the Habs are studying is Avalanche winger Ryan Smyth, who has three years left on his contract at an average of $6.25 million (all terms US) per season and is being shopped by Colorado GM Francois Giguere. The Avalanche, buried at the bottom of the Western Conference, want to shed salary. They haven't been the same without injured captain Joe Sakic, the goaltending has been horrid with Peter Budaj and Andrew Raycroft, and attendance is plummeting in a market that used to routinely sell out. Smyth, 32, can still contribute. He has played in a Canadian market before, and in hindsight probably should have stayed with the Oilers. There's likely no going back there, the fans in Montreal would embrace his hard-charging style and the Avs won't want a lot in return. Of course, Smyth would have to waive his no-trade clause and maintained yesterday he'd like to stay put. "I've got three years left on my deal, and I really like it here," he said. OFF THE GLASS The Blues haven't asked C Keith Tkachuk to waive his no-movement clause yet. But that day is coming. He would like to go to the Bruins, but the interest may not be mutual ... The next player packing his bags in Ottawa will likely be D Christoph Schubert. The Oilers and Bolts may both be interested and need help on the blue line. It's believed the Senators would like D Ladislav Smid from Edmonton in exchange for Schubert, a healthy scratch the past eight games. Smid has also been used sparingly ... The Thrashers have been shopping Ds Ron Hainsey and Niclas Havelid. Both are expected to be dealt at the deadline ... Nice of Anaheim D Chris Pronger to tell everyone on his website he doesn't want to leave the Ducks. Message to Pronger: He's not the one making the decision. That's GM Bob Murray's job, and he's been shopping the veteran blueliner. The Devils are looking, but they'd rather have Pronger's teammate, Scott Niedermayer, as a rental. AROUND THE BOARDS All the talk has Oilers LW Erik Cole going to the Bruins, but they may not be the No. 1 suitor. The Penguins are likely willing to pay the price so Cole can play on C Sidney Crosby's wing. The Habs may also have an interest in Cole ... The Senators and potential unrestricted free-agent RW Chris Neil aren't even in the same ballpark on a new contract. Discussions have gone nowhere. The belief is Neil's camp wants more than $2 million per season, while the Senators have countered with something close to the $1.5 million that Georges Laraque is making with the Habs. The Sharks and Wings are both interested in Neil. The Senators will likely get a second-round pick in return ... The Sabres will go looking for scoring help if LW Thomas Vanek isn't ready to return soon from his broken jaw ... The Blue Jackets are interested in Habs RW Alexei Kovalev. At this point, the Penguins haven't held any Kovalev discussions ... The Wild front office likes to spend a lot of time telling people around the NHL how it does things right. If the club doesn't get G Niklas Backstrom signed, GM Doug Risebrough and assistant Tom Lynn should be subject to job reviews in the off-season. The Wild tends to wait for a bargain that never materializes. www.ottawasun.com/Sports/Columnists/Garrioch_Bruce/2009/02/22/8481431-sun.html
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 27, 2009 11:15:46 GMT -5
linkIsles shopping players
With less than a weekleft until Wednesday's trade deadline, the Islanders clearly will attempt to be sellers from the cellar. Having already swung a deal last week to add a first-round pick, Isles GM Garth Snow continues to field and make calls concerning the handful of marketable veterans on his existing roster. Captain Bill Guerin owns a no-movement clause in his expiring contract, but he is expected to waive it if he sees a legitimate chance to win a Stanley Cup with an Eastern contender. Defensemen Radek Martinek and Brendan Witt reportedly are also available for rebuilding pieces. The Blackhawks and Canadiens had scouts in the Nassau Coliseum press box as the Isles fell to 2-7-2 in their last 11 games on shootout goals by ex-Islander Jason Blake and Tim Stapleton.
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Post by jkr on Feb 27, 2009 16:33:23 GMT -5
linkIsles shopping players
With less than a weekleft until Wednesday's trade deadline, the Islanders clearly will attempt to be sellers from the cellar. Having already swung a deal last week to add a first-round pick, Isles GM Garth Snow continues to field and make calls concerning the handful of marketable veterans on his existing roster. Captain Bill Guerin owns a no-movement clause in his expiring contract, but he is expected to waive it if he sees a legitimate chance to win a Stanley Cup with an Eastern contender. Defensemen Radek Martinek and Brendan Witt reportedly are also available for rebuilding pieces. The Blackhawks and Canadiens had scouts in the Nassau Coliseum press box as the Isles fell to 2-7-2 in their last 11 games on shootout goals by ex-Islander Jason Blake and Tim Stapleton. I like Witt but admittedly, I have seen him only rarely this year. He may be facing league discipline because he levelled Hagman with an elbow last night.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 27, 2009 16:34:46 GMT -5
linkIsles shopping players
With less than a weekleft until Wednesday's trade deadline, the Islanders clearly will attempt to be sellers from the cellar. Having already swung a deal last week to add a first-round pick, Isles GM Garth Snow continues to field and make calls concerning the handful of marketable veterans on his existing roster. Captain Bill Guerin owns a no-movement clause in his expiring contract, but he is expected to waive it if he sees a legitimate chance to win a Stanley Cup with an Eastern contender. Defensemen Radek Martinek and Brendan Witt reportedly are also available for rebuilding pieces. The Blackhawks and Canadiens had scouts in the Nassau Coliseum press box as the Isles fell to 2-7-2 in their last 11 games on shootout goals by ex-Islander Jason Blake and Tim Stapleton. I like Witt but admittedly, I have seen him only rarely this year. He may be facing league discipline because he levelled Hagman with an elbow last night. He got 5 games.
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Post by blny on Feb 27, 2009 16:38:46 GMT -5
Witt is tough, physical and mean, but he's slower than a sloth. In the right pairing he might work.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 27, 2009 22:21:46 GMT -5
TSN suggested Keith Tkachuk in the 2nd intermission tonight. Not a rumour, but a suggestion.
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Post by blny on Feb 28, 2009 0:55:36 GMT -5
TSN also saying that Boston is pushing for Pronger. I don't even want to think about him in a B's uniform. The twin towers. Talk about pain.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 28, 2009 2:37:15 GMT -5
TSN also saying that Boston is pushing for Pronger. I don't even want to think about him in a B's uniform. The twin towers. Talk about pain. Get through those two to get to Thomas and his flop-meistering that stops almost everything through not rhyme or reason. I can see why they would go for it and even give up some great forwards and prospects to do so. I shudder the thought though. That's an unfriendly road to the Cup.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Feb 28, 2009 2:40:27 GMT -5
linkIsles shopping players
With less than a weekleft until Wednesday's trade deadline, the Islanders clearly will attempt to be sellers from the cellar. Having already swung a deal last week to add a first-round pick, Isles GM Garth Snow continues to field and make calls concerning the handful of marketable veterans on his existing roster. Captain Bill Guerin owns a no-movement clause in his expiring contract, but he is expected to waive it if he sees a legitimate chance to win a Stanley Cup with an Eastern contender. Defensemen Radek Martinek and Brendan Witt reportedly are also available for rebuilding pieces. The Blackhawks and Canadiens had scouts in the Nassau Coliseum press box as the Isles fell to 2-7-2 in their last 11 games on shootout goals by ex-Islander Jason Blake and Tim Stapleton. I would strongly expect the Habs to have had, and continue to have, noticeable pro-scouting presence with all the teams slated in that seller category...just like two thirds of the league right now.
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Post by jkr on Feb 28, 2009 8:40:54 GMT -5
TSN also saying that Boston is pushing for Pronger. I don't even want to think about him in a B's uniform. The twin towers. Talk about pain. The rumor in Boston is that Kessell would have to go the other way.
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Post by Douper on Feb 28, 2009 9:17:38 GMT -5
TSN also saying that Boston is pushing for Pronger. I don't even want to think about him in a B's uniform. The twin towers. Talk about pain. The rumor in Boston is that Kessell would have to go the other way. How good would they be with a 1 goal lead late in the 3rd with Pronger and Chara on defense. Bob needs to out bid them, he signed for next year aswell. We'd have a 25+ million $ defense next year but atleast we'd have a General back there. And with him, we won't have to see Breezer on the ice again. Komisarek Pronger Markov Schneider Hammer Gorges
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Post by blny on Feb 28, 2009 11:09:14 GMT -5
I hate the idea of a bidding war, and I don't really believe that Pronger would want to play here long term. That said, I hate the idea of Boston getting him more. I would definitely be working the phones to try and make a deal happen. I don't think it has to be a defender going back the other way either. We'd have to likely add more pieces to compensate for not having a Kessel type.
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Post by CrocRob on Feb 28, 2009 12:04:26 GMT -5
tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=268773While Lecavalier isn't likely to move (at least by Wednesday), there are other options that could fit in the 'top six' category. Phoenix Coyotes centre Olli Jokinen is on the market, while Toronto's Nik Antropov, Keith Tkachuk of the St. Louis Blues and Colorado's Ryan Smyth (although he has a no-trade clause) are other names in play.tsn.ca/columnists/scott_cullen/?ID=268952- While reports out of Colorado seem to refute Ryan Smyth trade rumours, the Ottawa Sun says that the Canadiens are investigating the possibility of acquiring Smyth.
- Other Avs players getting a lot of play in the rumour mill include D Jordan Leopold and RW Ian Laperriere.
- As it seems with every deadline day, Coyotes C Olli Jokinen is again rumoured to be on the move, with the Calgary Sun noting that, naturally, Mike Keenan's Flames are a potential destination, while the Globe and Mail questions whether the Flames would be able to handle Jokinen's contract ($5.25-million) for next season.
- The Buffalo News indicates that the Sabres may have to seriously consider a Tim Connolly trade and figures that the Columbus Blue Jackets should be interested in pairing Connolly with star winger Rick Nash and sending Rostislav Klesla to Buffalo.
- Even if a deal seems less likely with Florida in playoff position, the Panthers reportedly will consider offers for D Jay Bouwmeester, but would require more than just prospects and picks to make such a deal. The Buffalo News says that the asking price is a top-four defenceman and a veteran forward that can be sold to the Florida fan base (and help the Panthers make the playoffs this season).
- The Orange County Register discusses some possible Ducks deals, noting that the Capitals, Blackhawks, Bruins and Flyers could be interested in Chris Pronger, but that each suitor would likely have to swallow hard before including some of their top young talent in return. TSN's Bob McKenzie has the Devils, Bruins, Flames and Sharks monitoring the Pronger situation closely.
- Reports out of Philadelphia indicate that the Flyers may be willing to swap top prospect James van Riemsdyk for Thrashers G Kari Lehtonen. If the deal was actually on the table, the Thrashers would surely have to jump on it. Wow. That's a big price to pay for what I consider a good, but injury prone, goaltender. But Philly really needs a goalie. - The Ottawa Citizen expects the Senators to have a market to deal D Filip Kuba and RW Chris Neil.
- The Calgary Sun wonders if the Flames would be interested in Predators RW Steve Sullivan. Now that's back to scoring goals, Sullivan could provide a nice boost to second-line scoring.
- According to the Ottawa Sun, the Thrashers are shopping both Niclas Havelid and Ron Hainsey.
- The Globe and Mail says that the Maple Leafs' asking price for Nik Antropov is a first-round pick.
- According to the Delaware County Times, Flyers RW Joffrey Lupul continues to be mentioned in trade rumours, particularly as the Flyers try to create enough cap room in order to fit Daniel Briere back into the lineup.
- Some of the more interesting and different names included by the Ottawa Sun as "available" before the deadline include: Stars winger Jere Lehtinen, Kings LW Alexander Frolov, Thrashers RW Colby Armstrong, Thrashers G Kari Lehtonen, Flames C Matthew Lombardi, Bruins RW Michael Ryder (really?), Hurricanes D Joe Corvo, Penguins RW Miroslav Satan, Canucks D Kevin Bieksa and Capitals D Shaone Morrisonn.
- The Arlington Heights Daily Herald Times notes that the Blackhawks are likely just looking for a solid checking centre at the deadline and there are several who could be available, including Jeff Halpern, Dominic Moore and Samuel Pahlsson.
- According to the Columbus Dispatch, the Oilers aren't going to move RW Erik Cole at the trade deadline. A curious decision, if it's true.
- The Globe and Mail notes that Canadiens RW Alex Kovalev interests the Oilers and Blue Jackets.
- According to the New York Daily News, the Islanders are listening to offers for RW Bill Guerin, D Radek Martinek and D Brendan Witt.
- The Ottawa Sun notes that Christoph Schubert is likely to be moved and names the Oilers and Lightning as potential destinations.
- The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review suggests that Penguins C Jordan Staal could be the next core player to be moved from Pittsburgh, if not by the trade deadline then in the summer, if the on-ice results don't improve.
- According to the Vancouver Province, the Canucks won't make a major move before the deadline unless they suffer an injury in the meantime.
- Red Wings GM Ken Holland tells the Detroit News that he won't be making a move for a goaltender before the deadline.
- The Columbus Dispatch reports that there is some interest in Blue Jackets G Pascal Leclaire, even as he's recovering from ankle surgery, listing Ottawa, Colorado, St. Louis and Atlanta as potentially interested parties.
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Post by jkr on Feb 28, 2009 16:37:40 GMT -5
I have a hard time believing anything from Bruce Garrioch of the Ottawa Sun. He usually starts his columns with the phrase "sources say". In other words - he's probably making it up or grabbing it from another site.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 28, 2009 16:45:55 GMT -5
BC, Doc, BLNY ... sitting down for this one? Just got an update on Pronger deal and it appears Pronger to the Bruins is very real and salary cap issues are the only thing holing it up right now. One interesting twist is that Phil Kessel is currently not the main Bruin going back to Anaheim. I am being told that defenseman Mark Stuart, Prospect Joe Colborne and a first round pick in 2010 would go to Anaheim in exchange for Pronger and forward Travis Moen. Both teams have apparently agreed in principle on a trade.
The deal will also not be announced or finalized until Wednesday, so that each team can iron out the cap issues and maybe make other deals to accommodate this move. Again, I can't get into specifics over the main roster player from Boston. Right now it's not Kessel but that could change, so that's why I can't say whom it is as of now with certainty. There are other teams (I'm told New Jersey, Philadelphia and Washington), still pushing hard, but Pronger to Beantown is very real!
James MurphyDon't know who Murphy is, but here's the link folks. www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2009/2/28/775525/trade-deadline-update-w-ja
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Post by jkr on Feb 28, 2009 17:17:10 GMT -5
BC, Doc, BLNY ... sitting down for this one? Just got an update on Pronger deal and it appears Pronger to the Bruins is very real and salary cap issues are the only thing holing it up right now. One interesting twist is that Phil Kessel is currently not the main Bruin going back to Anaheim. I am being told that defenseman Mark Stuart, Prospect Joe Colborne and a first round pick in 2010 would go to Anaheim in exchange for Pronger and forward Travis Moen. Both teams have apparently agreed in principle on a trade.
The deal will also not be announced or finalized until Wednesday, so that each team can iron out the cap issues and maybe make other deals to accommodate this move. Again, I can't get into specifics over the main roster player from Boston. Right now it's not Kessel but that could change, so that's why I can't say whom it is as of now with certainty. There are other teams (I'm told New Jersey, Philadelphia and Washington), still pushing hard, but Pronger to Beantown is very real!
James MurphyDon't know who Murphy is, but here's the link folks. www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2009/2/28/775525/trade-deadline-update-w-jaThe header on top of the page says SB Nation, blogs for fans, by fans. Is this guy for real or just another Eklund? How does he have that kind of info plus I'm also suspicious when he says they have a deal but there will be no announcement. All I can find out is that he is a Boston bsed writer/blogger. Still, don't like the prospect of Pronger AND Chara on the same team. I think it may hinge on Neidermeyer. If he has decided to come back then maybe they trade Pronger. If he is retiring, I would think they want to hang on to him for another year.
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Post by blny on Feb 28, 2009 19:02:03 GMT -5
Dis,
I heard Kessel may not be the main ingredient going back too. TSN was mentioning the names Murphy is tossing about. I'd say they're his inside tip on this.
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Post by blny on Feb 28, 2009 21:39:12 GMT -5
Something else, if the Bruins and Ducks had a deal in place then they'd do it. You don't sit on a deal at this point. A player involved could get hurt and then you'd be SOL.
Hotstove on CBC says that Guerin was scratched at the last minute tonight. It left the Isles a man short on the roster for the game. As they said, it has to mean he's on the move.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 28, 2009 22:02:16 GMT -5
Dis, I heard Kessel may not be the main ingredient going back too. TSN was mentioning the names Murphy is tossing about. I'd say they're his inside tip on this. Like I was saying, I don't know this Murphy guy. I heard what you did on the Hotstove as well, BLNY. Cheers.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Mar 1, 2009 1:09:29 GMT -5
Something else, if the Bruins and Ducks had a deal in place then they'd do it. You don't sit on a deal at this point. A player involved could get hurt and then you'd be SOL. Hotstove on CBC says that Guerin was scratched at the last minute tonight. It left the Isles a man short on the roster for the game. As they said, it has to mean he's on the move. The talk seems to point to Guerin going to Washington.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Mar 1, 2009 1:11:50 GMT -5
Dis, I heard Kessel may not be the main ingredient going back too. TSN was mentioning the names Murphy is tossing about. I'd say they're his inside tip on this. Like I was saying, I don't know this Murphy guy. I heard what you did on the Hotstove as well, BLNY. Cheers. They were also talking Joe Colbourne, a big 6'4" forward selected in the first round last summer who now plays in the NCAA and played in the AJHL Camrose Kodiaks last season. Saw a few of his games live last year. Big kid, way too soft, but skilled for sure.
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