The World Cup

[roke]

Jun 23, 2010 21:29:28 GMT -5 Habs_fan_in_LA said:

Jun 23, 2010 21:01:41 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

Kind of happy for the USA to be honest. The American women pulled it off a few years ago didn't they?

Cheers.

It's very good for the US soccer team.
They are made up of athletes that weren't good enough in High School to make the football, baseball, basketball, hockey, volleyball or ultimate frisbee teams.

Bull. They have players (Landon Donovan, Tim Howard, Jozy Altidore, Clint Dempsey) who have shown they are more than capable of playing in what are the top leagues in the world. Howard has starred in England, and Donovan absolutely bossed his loan at Everton. If the US were made of guys not good enough to play in football, or to play a dying sport in high school, they would not have qualified out of CONCACAF.

[CentreHice]

Would Italy be the Montreal Canadiens of the soccer world....in that most other countries have an "anybody-but-Italy" mindset?

The reason for that may not be the same. With the Habs, I think it's rooted in jealousy.

But in Italian football's case, from what I've read, it seems to be rooted in their diving and whining tactics. (I might challenge that....they have a pretty good track record in the W column.)

[roke]

CH, I think it's mostly tactics, and the whining. There have had some notorious Brazilian divers (Rivaldo for one), are more successful than Italy, but they don't get half the hate the Italians do.

[CentreHice]

Jun 24, 2010 15:39:04 GMT -5 @roke said:

CH, I think it's mostly tactics, and the whining. There have had some notorious Brazilian divers (Rivaldo for one), are more successful than Italy, but they don't get half the hate the Italians do.

I defer to your opinion there, Roke. Thanks.

Look at this excerpt from a fan post on TSN.......

Italian fans are just like the Hab fans, when they win everything is right in the world, when they lose they are very negative, disrespectful and I think disloyal.

People love to hate the Habs....at any time of year.

[Skilly]

My TV has an "any sport but soccer midset"

[CentreHice]

Jun 24, 2010 16:16:23 GMT -5 Skilly said:

My TV has an "any sport but soccer midset"

Do you get that installed or does it come standard with the Skylvania model?

[Yossarian]

Jun 24, 2010 15:39:04 GMT -5 @roke said:

CH, I think it's mostly tactics, and the whining. There have had some notorious Brazilian divers (Rivaldo for one), are more successful than Italy, but they don't get half the hate the Italians do.

Personally, I think it has more to do with ignorance. Tactics? Most people wouldn't realize that despite only giving up 2 goals in the entire tournament in 2006 (only one from active play, the other from a penalty in the final where Malouda embellished a soft foul-yes, other countries dive too), Italy had third highest goals per game in the tournament behind Spain and Argentina. There is nothing defensive, or tactically unappealing about that.

In 1982, they beat a heavily favoured Brazilian (team with Zico, Falcao, Socrates, Junior) team in the 2nd round grouping, Maradona's Argentina in the same 2nd round grouping, Boniek's Poland in the semi's and Rumminigge and Litbarski's Germany in the final, playing free-flowing, brilliantly attractive football that was the envy of the world.

In 1990 at home, they were easily the most attractive and complete team in the tournament. They lost out to a significantly less talented Argentina team in penalties in the semi's, who played much the way many people perceive is the only way Italy can play. Tight, defensive, and uninspiring football-yes, other nations play that way too.

Last year, at the Euro under 21 (won by Germany in the final), Italy had one of the most attractive, complete teams again. They lost to Germany (which featured Mesit Ozil, a revelation of this WC) in the semi's.

Many in the know saw this coming from the minute Lippi announced his team last month. See my post on the subject early in the thread. A nation can't win every tournament, and can't be at the top of the world every WC. This particular team deserved everything they got. They were horrible. The worst thing is that they have wasted an entire 4 year cycle, not preparing the younger players that needed to be playing and gaining experience. This was not the best team Italy could have assembled. Lippi was too stubborn and loyal to his old guard, and his Juventus guard. This blog is a pretty good synopsis.

www.football-italia.net/blogs/gr94.html

It is not unique to Italy that some teams play less inspiring, tight, defensive soccer when talent level isn't at its highest, and play otherwise when it is. The great teams can play both, at any time a particular tactic is called for. Failing to see this IMO when the historical evidence is clear is ignorance.

[CentreHice]

Sounds as if jealousy does rear its ugly green head then.

[roke]

Great points Yossarian. I'll have to bow to your point of view.

I watched the Italy-Slovakia match tonight. Great drama, but too many histrionics even for my taste. Not outlandish diving, but the play-acting after play had stopped and then Honduras-like time-wasting by Slovakia got old very quick.

Italy were so poor.I've seen better touches than English 2nd division teams. Poorly organized at the back, not enough workrate, poor first touch. Not a recipe for success.

[CentreHice]

Jun 24, 2010 22:24:30 GMT -5 @roke said:

Great points Yossarian. I'll have to bow to your point of view.

I watched the Italy-Slovakia match tonight. Great drama, but too many histrionics even for my taste. Not outlandish diving, but the play-acting after play had stopped and then Honduras-like time-wasting by Slovakia got old very quick.

Italy were so poor.I've seen better touches than English 2nd division teams. Poorly organized at the back, not enough workrate, poor first touch. Not a recipe for success.

That poorly-covered throw-in for Slovakia's third goal (and eventual winner) was remarkable in its lack of defensive focus. Good on the Slovaks for sensing it.

[roke]

Ghana-USA was a terrific match, although in the second half of extra time the play died down as the players were knackered. Ghana showed why the 4-4-2 is becoming an antiquated formation, especially when it is used as rigidly as the US did for the first 30 minutes or so.

The US looked much better after the start of the 2nd half when they switched formations, I think to a 4-2-3-1 although it might have been a 4-5-1.

[Yossarian]

Jun 26, 2010 16:04:28 GMT -5 @roke said:

Ghana-USA was a terrific match, although in the second half of extra time the play died down as the players were knackered. Ghana showed why the 4-4-2 is becoming an antiquated formation, especially when it is used as rigidly as the US did for the first 30 minutes or so.

The US looked much better after the start of the 2nd half when they switched formations, I think to a 4-2-3-1 although it might have been a 4-5-1.

Both matches were very enjoyable today. You're right. The 4-4-2 places so much emphasis on play along the wings. If you don't have active wing-backs and wingers, it becomes a very stale formation. Donovan and Dempsey did their part in midfield, but I thought that Cherundolo and Bornstein had a lot of difficulty with speedy Ghana wingers, which prevented them from getting involved in the play as they need to in that particular formation.

Uruguay looked solid today, although they almost paid for going into their shell too early. The Koreans pressed and played extremely well. One of the reasons Uruguay were one of my dark horses before this tournament was their stikeforce, Forlan-Cavani-Suarez; no trio scored more goals in pretty tough Euro leagues this past season. Their holding midfielder, Perez, tackles anything that moves, and Lugano is an underrated CB. Lodeiro is also one of the most highly touted, talented young players to come out of Uruguay in a long time. They will be even better in 4 years. Ghana will be a nice match-up, but I think they should win a spot in the semi's against either Brazil-Holland if either win through (I think that is how the bracket plays itself out).

Looking forward to both of tomorrow's games.

[CentreHice]

England just got completely ripped off. It should be 2-2 right now. The ball hit the crossbar and came down almost 2 feet behind the line.

You'd think that with today's technology, considering what's at stake, FIFA would use video replay for such plays....or at least a goal judge at each end.

There's human error and then there's utter stupidity.

People wait 4 years...and for what?

[NWTHabsFan]

Jun 27, 2010 9:43:27 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

England just got completely ripped off. It should be 2-2 right now. The ball hit the crossbar and came down almost 2 feet behind the line.

You'd think that with today's technology, considering what's at stake, FIFA would have video replay for such plays....or at least a goal judge at each end.

There's human error and then there's utter stupidity.

People wait 4 years...and for what?

They got totally robbed on that "non-goal". As you say, it was two feet over the line.

Now, if England's defense can ever settle down, they have a chance as they are getting lots of ball possession and have a bit of momentum back.

Rooney is one pouty little brat. Time to sit his sorry little scoreless butt on the bench Capello.

[jkr]

Jun 27, 2010 9:43:27 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

England just got completely ripped off. It should be 2-2 right now. The ball hit the crossbar and came down almost 2 feet behind the line.

You'd think that with today's technology, considering what's at stake, FIFA would use video replay for such plays....or at least a goal judge at each end.

There's human error and then there's utter stupidity.

People wait 4 years...and for what?

Brutal officiating continues at this WC. How can we take FIFA seriously with calls like that. It's a bit of a stretch but a call like that could cost a team the World Cup.

During the playoffs MLB puts extra umpires on the foul lines. Can't the geniuses at FIFA put an official behind the net - like a goal judge in hockey?

[roke]

It's a shame that didn't happen to a nation FIFA didn't view with disdain. It could have been an impotence impetus to change.

I have a hard time faulting the officials there. The referee is at no angle to make a definitive call on whether the ball crossed the line, one assistant is in the other half, and the assistant in the Germany half has to hold the defensive line to make an offside call and wasn't at a good angle to see it as a result. It pretty much comes down to inadequacy on FIFA's part. If UEFA were running the tournament, there would be 2 extra officials on the line like they used during the Europa League last year, and are using going forward.

[CentreHice]

CBC's commentators were saying at the half that FIFA was considering putting an extra "referee's assistant" at each end for such calls....i.e. a goal judge. "And if they ever needed proof that it's needed, it's that play," said Bob Lenarduzzi.

Duh! Well, it's too late for this tournament....and it could be too late for England.

[CentreHice]

Jun 27, 2010 10:00:59 GMT -5 @roke said:

It's a shame that didn't happen to a nation FIFA didn't view with disdain. It could have been an impotence to change.

I have a hard time faulting the officials there. The referee is at no angle to make a definitive call on whether the ball crossed the line, one assistant is in the other half, and the assistant in the Germany half has to hold the defensive line to make an offside call and wasn't at a good angle to see it as a result. It pretty much comes down to inadequacy on FIFA's part. If UEFA were running the tournament, there would be 2 extra officials on the line like they used during the Europa League last year, and are using going forward.

I'm not faulting the field officials at all....that was a quick bounce down...and he was at no angle to see it, as you say.

The fault lies with FIFA...

[roke]

Jun 27, 2010 10:01:44 GMT -5 CentreHice said:

CBC's commentators were saying at the half that FIFA was considering putting an extra "referee's assistant" at each end for such calls....i.e. a goal judge. "And if they ever needed proof that it's needed, it's that play," said Bob Lenarduzzi.

Duh! Well, it's too late for this tournament....and it could be too late for England.

FIFA's a step behind when it comes to advancement in football. UEFA's already going to have those extra officials for all their competitions starting next year, UEFA's ahead of them in terms of preventing match-fixing. When you look at the governance FIFA has, it's really not surprising though.


Germany absolutely bossed that match though. England had a good 15 or 20 minutes, but the rest of it was all Germany. The 2nd goal was spectacular, and their 2 on the counter-attack were perfect. They absolutely deserve to go through, bad goal or not, England just didn't have it, especially at the back.

It's also nice see John Terry out of the tournament. I wonder if Capello will blast him in his post-match/tournament press conference for his poor play and scumbaggery.

[CentreHice]

England pressing....gets caught twice with the long ball (actually 3 times, if you count the first goal which came from a goal kick straight up the middle)....

No match for a quick, skilled German team.

But there's no saying what could've been had they been correctly awarded the 2-2 tie in the 38th minute.

[CentreHice]

First Argentine goal appeared off-side.

They go up 2-0 after Mexican defender Rosorio tries to pass across the middle to his partner....but gets only a quarter of the effort into it....right to an oncoming forward. What a gaffe.

[roke]

Linesman blew the first call there. And no idea what the Mexican defender was doing on that 2nd goal.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

FIFA correctly determined that techmology has no place in soccer. No instant replays, no cell phones.
How about keeping rotary phones or carrier pigeons?
We should ban tv's, satelite transmissions, internet and credit cards too.
I want the Canadian national squad managed by Bob Gainey with Trevor Timmins selecting players to the squad. Sign on Rejean Houle as an advisor.
The long hot summer begins.

[roke]

Jun 27, 2010 23:48:51 GMT -5 Habs_fan_in_LA said:

I want the Canadian national squad managed by Bob Gainey with Trevor Timmins selecting players to the squad. Sign on Rejean Houle as an advisor.
.

You're being facetious, but that probably would have been an improvement up until the past year.

[CrocRob]

With Paraguay and Japan headed to penalties, I'll save my rant about how good teams shouldn't be eliminated this way because neither side is particularly good.

I will, however, state that it is a decidedly poor way to finish a match at the World Cup. They should play on if you ask me.

[jkr]

Jun 29, 2010 11:35:55 GMT -5 CrocRob said:

With Paraguay and Japan headed to penalties, I'll save my rant about how good teams shouldn't be eliminated this way because neither side is particularly good.

I will, however, state that it is a decidedly poor way to finish a match at the World Cup. They should play on if you ask me.

Paraguay wins.

From what I saw it looked two teams trying not to lose.

[franko]

isn't that the way they usually play [although it is called "counter-attack"?].

not sure, as I only follow soccer for the World and Euro Cups.

[franko]

Jun 29, 2010 11:35:55 GMT -5 CrocRob said:

I will, however, state that it is a decidedly poor way to finish a match at the World Cup. They should play on if you ask me.

if shoot-outs are good enough during the regular season . . .

[roke]

Jun 29, 2010 12:03:05 GMT -5 franko said:

isn't that the way they usually play [although it is called "counter-attack"?].

not sure, as I only follow soccer for the World and Euro Cups.

In order to counter-attack you need to soak up some pressure to get the opposition to expose themselves. Brazil played it brilliantly yesterday. jkr had it right, neither wanted to lose. There was nothing to counter in the game to build an attack from.

[CrocRob]

Jun 29, 2010 12:04:02 GMT -5 franko said:

Jun 29, 2010 11:35:55 GMT -5 CrocRob said:

I will, however, state that it is a decidedly poor way to finish a match at the World Cup. They should play on if you ask me.

if shoot-outs are good enough during the regular season . . .

There are no shootouts in the regular season.....