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Post by Yossarian on Jul 4, 2010 14:01:13 GMT -5
I believe if in the referee's eyes, the handball was a deliberate attempt to prevent the ball from entering the net, it is a straight red card. It was the same call against Kewell from Australia, where he got call for the goal prevention with his arm. The referee thought it was deliberate, it prevented a goal, and gave him a straight red.
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Post by Skilly on Jul 4, 2010 21:15:33 GMT -5
I believe if in the referee's eyes, the handball was a deliberate attempt to prevent the ball from entering the net, it is a straight red card. It was the same call against Kewell from Australia, where he got call for the goal prevention with his arm. The referee thought it was deliberate, it prevented a goal, and gave him a straight red. Then give him a red ... and negate the penalty kick. Thats two penalties on one play. What's a player suppose to do, let the other team score the winning goal in the dying seconds of the quarter-finals all in the name of "sportmanship"? A deliberate attempt to prevent a goal in hockey (hands on the puck in the crease) is a penalty shot.... do they also give the player a 2 minute penalty and suspend him? NO. |
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Post by roke on Jul 5, 2010 1:54:18 GMT -5
I believe if in the referee's eyes, the handball was a deliberate attempt to prevent the ball from entering the net, it is a straight red card. It was the same call against Kewell from Australia, where he got call for the goal prevention with his arm. The referee thought it was deliberate, it prevented a goal, and gave him a straight red. Then give him a red ... and negate the penalty kick. Thats two penalties on one play. What's a player suppose to do, let the other team score the winning goal in the dying seconds of the quarter-finals all in the name of "sportmanship"? A deliberate attempt to prevent a goal in hockey (hands on the puck in the crease) is a penalty shot.... do they also give the player a 2 minute penalty and suspend him? NO. There are basically two laws being applied here Skilly. First, committing a "professional foul" (denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity) automatically results in a red-card, regard, regardless of location of the foul. The set piece awarded then depends on the location of the offense, as with any other foul. If the foul is committed outside the 18-yard box, the opposition receives a freekick. Inside the box and it's a penalty. It's not as if the rule is specifically punishing cynical fouls in the box anymore than a regular foul in the box gets punished greater than a foul outside it. If Suarez prevents an obvious goal-scoring opportunity outside the box, he gets sent off and Ghana would have merely received a freekick. As for what a player (Suarez) is supposed to do, in a situation like Uruguay in the right thing for the player to do would be to commit the foul as he did. With pretty much no time on the clock, a 20% chance of not losing is better than a 100% chance of not losing. Earlier in the match and he would be incredibly stupid to do so. I honestly don't think it was unsportsmanlike of him (unlike some of his diving in the first half of the match and earlier in the tournament). He isn't trying to deceive the officials, he isn't trying to intentionally hurt someone, he's committing a foul which he knows will be punished severely in exchange for the slim hope of his side advancing to the Semifinals. It's probably the most brilliant red card I've ever seen, and well worth it. Absolutely brilliant |
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Post by jkr on Jul 11, 2010 16:16:21 GMT -5
I don't watch soccer regularly so this colors muy impression.
I thought the refereeing ( by an English official) was terrible. There was a lot of diving going on & Holland was getting the worst of it with 9 (?) yellow cards including one player being booked twice. Holland finished the game with 10 men & this probably played a part in the winning goal as Iniesta was wide open.
Was this the best official they had left after they sent the rest of these jokers home?
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Post by roke on Jul 11, 2010 16:20:04 GMT -5
Webb had an extremely bad game. Nigel De Jong should've been sent off for his kick to the chest in the first half; biggest miss of the match for him. The sad thing is I think most of the yellows were deserved, it was a very chippy match.
If nothing else, the match showed why "physical football" is dreadful to watch. There wasn't any flow at all, and the Netherlands' gameplan of pressing and fouling worked well until extra time came along, at which point they were too tired and Spain had a bit more space. If Robben puts either of his golden chances away, the Dutch win.
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Post by Yossarian on Jul 11, 2010 22:21:57 GMT -5
Certainly Webb missed the red on the De Jong kick; I don't know what he was thinking in not sending him off. And I think Robben earned a free kick and at least a yellow to Puyols on the breakaway. Webb played the advantage, but there wasn't much of an advantage.
To his defence, this was an extremely difficult game to referee. It was extremely physical, many players on both sides trying to "earn" fouls, and he couldn't make one call without being swarmed by yelling players. For the most part, I think he handled himself well.
The Dutch have traditionally played an attractive brand of soccer. However, their antics this WC sullied their general positive reputation. Spain were a true team with many star players accepting part roles, and not whining or questioning their coach's tactics. They didn't score many, but they only gave up two. They attempted to control the ball and the midfield, in all their games. Their victory was well deserved, as they were the most complete team in the tournament, IMO.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 12, 2010 0:58:39 GMT -5
Yup, I think the most deserving team won. While Netherlands missed a couple of golden opportunities, Spain did too, with Sergio Ramos wearing the goat horns for a while, missing a wide open head ball for a goal. Hopefully next time, they will use a real ball and we won't see so many shots fly over the crossbar.
I think both teams were too pumped, but it affected the Dutch the most. They were either trying to intimidate the Spanish, or were really out of sorts. Some of the fouls were embellished, but I think both sides did that. Robben is one of the bigger crybabies around and acts like he's being murdered when he's checked. Van Bommel played hard, but he always does and you know you're going to take some knocks when he comes at you.
DeJong really should have gotten the red card for that high, spikes in the chest, kick to Alonso, but I really think Webb was doing his best not to affect the game. He was lenient to several players who already had yellows, both Dutch and Spanish. A very tough game to officiate and I thought he did allright. When emotions are as high as they are for this kind of game, the refs can't win. He didn't cost anyone the game and there were no glaring errors (DeJong being perhaps the only serious foul that could have been debated).
I just find it amazing that a player like Fabregas, who's a favourite of mine, isn't even a starter. When he came on, though, he made a difference.
What a great sport. I can't help comparing the fitness of these guys to baseball players. And I'll leave it at that.
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Post by MC Habber on Jul 12, 2010 1:43:26 GMT -5
I can't help comparing the fitness of these guys to baseball players. I was puzzled by that because you seem to be a 'soccer guy' but then I realized you probably meant that you can't help contrasting the fitness of these guys to baseball players.  I'm not a soccer guy myself. It seems like when there's an exciting play, 80% of the time it's offside. And, people think hockey shootouts are a bad way to decide a game, but penalty kicks in soccer are 100 times worse. I did enjoy most of what I watched of the WC though, but it's too bad the final wasn't a better game. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 7:27:47 GMT -5
Certainly Webb missed the red on the De Jong kick; I don't know what he was thinking in not sending him off. And I think Robben earned a free kick and at least a yellow to Puyols on the breakaway. Webb played the advantage, but there wasn't much of an advantage. To his defence, this was an extremely difficult game to referee. It was extremely physical, many players on both sides trying to "earn" fouls, and he couldn't make one call without being swarmed by yelling players. For the most part, I think he handled himself well. This is one of the very few times someone has got to bat for the referee, Yossarian. I remember one of the commentators saying that Webb got a few right, got a few wrong, but like you said, it was a hard game to officiate. As for players swarming around him, Webb made his decision to let the first swarm go and when he did that he just invited more of it. Webb might have been able to get a grip on that right away, but that's easier said than done, more so from where I'm sitting. But, all of that said, I also have to say that it was good seeing the officials handing out yellow cards for blantent diving. As an outsider looking in, it looks as if the officals and/or tournament organizers agreed to do this before the tournament even started. Webb may not have called those dives yesterday, but it was good to see the officials finally try to do something about it. I think Spain learned from their 1-0 loss to Switzerland. Instead of pointing fingers at each other and laying blame, I think they used this as a wake-up call and built on it. As for the game itself yesterday, I found the goalkeeping to be A-one again. In fact, I'll go as far to say that this was probably the highest levle of goalkeeping I can remember seeing in one tournament. Cheers. |
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Post by Skilly on Jul 12, 2010 7:58:49 GMT -5
Webb may not have called those dives yesterday, but it was good to see the officials finally try to do something about it. We, the collective "we", as in fans, always complain in hockey that the officiating should not change in the playoffs, that it should be consistent throughout the year ..... well, the refs in soccer picked a terrible time to change how they call a game. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 8:40:03 GMT -5
Webb may not have called those dives yesterday, but it was good to see the officials finally try to do something about it. We, the collective "we", as in fans, always complain in hockey that the officiating should not change in the playoffs, that it should be consistent throughout the year ..... well, the refs in soccer picked a terrible time to change how they call a game. Could very well be right, Skilly. I'm one of those fans who feel that the difference in the levels of officiating between the regular season and the playoffs actually penalizes teams who did well throughout the year. IMO, the playoffs is the worst possible time to change the standard of officiating because, to me anyway, it makes the regulars season look moot. For this tournament I think the officiating staff took a lot of heat for the change, but they started off penalizing dives right from day-1 of the tournament and were consistent (mostly) in upholding it throughout. The players had a month to adjust to it and I think both Holland and Spain knew that going into the final. However, both teams decided to test Webb regardless of the tournament standard. Webb failed to do something about the first swarming and while both teams jumped on him immediately, I thought he did a great job in not overreacting to it. Was it bad timing? Yes, you could be right (the more I think of the NHL playoffs the more I ... ). But, I'm hoping this tournament can be a starting point for sending a message; you come to the World Cup and try to ruin the game, then you'll be penalized for it. Who knows, maybe some of those officials will bring that standard back to their countries with them. But, like the WC I think that will be a tough sell. Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Jul 12, 2010 8:47:12 GMT -5
I watched the entire game yesterday and I must admit.......it was as boring as ever. Right up there with three legged turtle racing.  |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 8:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by Polarice on Jul 12, 2010 9:22:43 GMT -5
I watched the entire game yesterday and I must admit.......it was as boring as ever. Right up there with three legged turtle racing. Yeah I'd rather go shoping with the Mrs!! |
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Post by Willie Dog on Jul 12, 2010 10:13:38 GMT -5
I watched the game yesterday and a number of games throughout the WC. I could not believe how many Claude Lemieux clones there are in soccer. I found the spaniards to be extremely bad for this. If a player fakes an injury (acts like he been shot and when he doesn't get the call, jumps up and runs after the ball) then he should be assessed a misconduct penalty and the player has to go off for a predetermined amount of time and his team plays shorthanded. One guy did not even get touched and acted like he was hit by the hand of God |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jul 12, 2010 11:39:28 GMT -5
Boring sport.
Biggest game in the last four years, zero goals in over an hour and a half and an arbitrary bit tacked on. Surprise goal as game dragged on with four minutes left.
Fans in one country cheer, others go jump in a canal, some in Uganda killed by zealots from Somalia.
Eleven Spaniards defeat 10 Dutchmen.
Better actors than Lohan rolling on the ground holding their shins.
On the plus side, no bad goals allowed, no good goals called back, the better team won.
In the words of a great HabsRus leader, "meh!"
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Post by Skilly on Jul 12, 2010 11:59:37 GMT -5
We, the collective "we", as in fans, always complain in hockey that the officiating should not change in the playoffs, that it should be consistent throughout the year ..... well, the refs in soccer picked a terrible time to change how they call a game. Could very well be right, Skilly. I'm one of those fans who feel that the difference in the levels of officiating between the regular season and the playoffs actually penalizes teams who did well throughout the year. IMO, the playoffs is the worst possible time to change the standard of officiating because, to me anyway, it makes the regulars season look moot. For this tournament I think the officiating staff took a lot of heat for the change, but they started off penalizing dives right from day-1 of the tournament and were consistent (mostly) in upholding it throughout. The players had a month to adjust to it and I think both Holland and Spain knew that going into the final. However, both teams decided to test Webb regardless of the tournament standard. Webb failed to do something about the first swarming and while both teams jumped on him immediately, I thought he did a great job in not overreacting to it. Was it bad timing? Yes, you could be right (the more I think of the NHL playoffs the more I ... ). But, I'm hoping this tournament can be a starting point for sending a message; you come to the World Cup and try to ruin the game, then you'll be penalized for it. Who knows, maybe some of those officials will bring that standard back to their countries with them. But, like the WC I think that will be a tough sell. Cheers. I am not sure that it was consistent throughout the tournament Dis ... now, admittedly I watched very very little of the games. When flipping through the channels I may have stopped and watched a minute or two here and there.... but I didn't see many reports of yellow cards for diving throughout the tournament on the highlights. Were there many? I guess I am asking .. How many yellow cards were given for diving in the whole tournament and how many were given in the Championship game? It's kind of akin to the diving calls that surfaced in the NHL playoffs this year (30 or so) when there was only 35 the WHOLE year that were called .... if it was indeed from day 1 of the tournament than I agree, but it didnt seem to me (albeit just looking at the highlights) that alot of yellows were handed out for diving prior to the Final. |
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Post by roke on Jul 12, 2010 12:42:33 GMT -5
We, the collective "we", as in fans, always complain in hockey that the officiating should not change in the playoffs, that it should be consistent throughout the year ..... well, the refs in soccer picked a terrible time to change how they call a game.[/quote]
Webb didn't call the match all that different than the rest of the tournament was called, although he was too reluctant to hand out reds in the match (like most referees). I didn't notice any change in yellows handed out for simulation from the first round of the tournament through to the final (still too few handed out). I didn't think there was a difference in simulation cards between the World Cup and the club football I've watched in the past few years.
I also didn't think there was all that much diving in the match until near and in extra time, and Iniesta is the only player I can remember going down too easily on a number of occasions. You have to remember that at this level, players are shifting their weight quickly and controlling something with their feet, which means they're going to be off-balance. Robben (a player who is notorious for diving) probably went down easy on a few occasions, as did a couple other players, but Iniesta was the only one being anywhere near blatant about it, and it wasn't as bad as earlier in the tournament. Even then, there wasn't anything like Kaita where I would say he should face supplementary discipline for such a blatant dive. The diving wasn't that much worse than what I've seen in NBA or NHL games.
The play-acting bothers me more than diving, and there was some there (notably, Iniesta), but I thought that didn't go on until later in the match and given how the Dutch were playing, it's hard to discern real pain from the playacting. When the match starts off with a Dutch player kicking a Spanish player in the back of the knee, you know it's going to be a bad one.
The problem with the match was that Holland's strategy was to kick the crap out of Spain to keep them from building up a rhythm. It led to a tonne of fouls and a tonne of red cards (and 2 possible reds that weren't handed out in the first half). That was what made the final so crappy, anti-football at its worse. Playing defensive football and putting 8, 9, 10 men against the ball is fine by me - I love watching tactical battles- but Holland were intent on playing lower league, "physical", thuggish football and it was horrible to watch. I personally never want to hear that soccer isn't physical enough, this was the most physical match I've seen in a while and it was crap.
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Post by CrocRob on Jul 12, 2010 13:20:37 GMT -5
I loved the entire month, Final and all. Some matches drag, others race. No different than any other sport.
Let the complainers complain, I say. Nobody is forcing soccer on them. I can't wait for June 2014, myself.
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Post by CrocRob on Jul 12, 2010 13:30:21 GMT -5
The players never like the ball. But it's not due to the fact that it's brand new. The players have had the better part of half a year to use it and it has been used in friendlies since then and in several professional leagues, too. Every ball ducks and swerves depending on the spin and motion. We heard it 4 years ago, and 8, and 12, and ..... but only when a player makes an error. "New ball" is the easy excuse, if you ask me. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 14:27:08 GMT -5
Could very well be right, Skilly. I'm one of those fans who feel that the difference in the levels of officiating between the regular season and the playoffs actually penalizes teams who did well throughout the year. IMO, the playoffs is the worst possible time to change the standard of officiating because, to me anyway, it makes the regulars season look moot. For this tournament I think the officiating staff took a lot of heat for the change, but they started off penalizing dives right from day-1 of the tournament and were consistent (mostly) in upholding it throughout. The players had a month to adjust to it and I think both Holland and Spain knew that going into the final. However, both teams decided to test Webb regardless of the tournament standard. Webb failed to do something about the first swarming and while both teams jumped on him immediately, I thought he did a great job in not overreacting to it. Was it bad timing? Yes, you could be right (the more I think of the NHL playoffs the more I ... ). But, I'm hoping this tournament can be a starting point for sending a message; you come to the World Cup and try to ruin the game, then you'll be penalized for it. Who knows, maybe some of those officials will bring that standard back to their countries with them. But, like the WC I think that will be a tough sell. Cheers. I am not sure that it was consistent throughout the tournament Dis ... now, admittedly I watched very very little of the games. When flipping through the channels I may have stopped and watched a minute or two here and there.... but I didn't see many reports of yellow cards for diving throughout the tournament on the highlights. Were there many? I guess I am asking .. How many yellow cards were given for diving in the whole tournament and how many were given in the Championship game? It's kind of akin to the diving calls that surfaced in the NHL playoffs this year (30 or so) when there was only 35 the WHOLE year that were called .... if it was indeed from day 1 of the tournament than I agree, but it didnt seem to me (albeit just looking at the highlights) that alot of yellows were handed out for diving prior to the Final. Hi Skilly, I had a number of links for you but my server here at work decided to punt me out here and there this afternoon. I honestly can't find any links that would break down just how many 'diving' or 'simulation' calls were booked. However, I did find a link that initiatives to remove 'diving/simulation' or 'unsporting behaviour' from the game started in 2008. If I find them again later tonight I'll post them. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 15:36:21 GMT -5
The players never like the ball. But it's not due to the fact that it's brand new. The players have had the better part of half a year to use it and it has been used in friendlies since then and in several professional leagues, too. Every ball ducks and swerves depending on the spin and motion. We heard it 4 years ago, and 8, and 12, and ..... but only when a player makes an error. "New ball" is the easy excuse, if you ask me. Hello Red, I actually remember similar complaints about previous world championships. However, these complaints about the Adidas Jabulani ball started prior to the tournament. Check out this link when you have the chance. Adidas JabulaniIt's possible that if they were using it prior to the tournament they could have based their opinions on those matches. However, the link also has certain Adidas-sponsored players endorsing the product as well. Me, I played in my teenage years and again in my late-20's, early-30's. Very honestly I don't understand the higher-level concerns because the only questions we had were whether the ball was properly inflated. I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that, though. Cheers. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jul 12, 2010 15:47:48 GMT -5
Could very well be right, Skilly. I'm one of those fans who feel that the difference in the levels of officiating between the regular season and the playoffs actually penalizes teams who did well throughout the year. IMO, the playoffs is the worst possible time to change the standard of officiating because, to me anyway, it makes the regulars season look moot. For this tournament I think the officiating staff took a lot of heat for the change, but they started off penalizing dives right from day-1 of the tournament and were consistent (mostly) in upholding it throughout. The players had a month to adjust to it and I think both Holland and Spain knew that going into the final. However, both teams decided to test Webb regardless of the tournament standard. Webb failed to do something about the first swarming and while both teams jumped on him immediately, I thought he did a great job in not overreacting to it. Was it bad timing? Yes, you could be right (the more I think of the NHL playoffs the more I ... ). But, I'm hoping this tournament can be a starting point for sending a message; you come to the World Cup and try to ruin the game, then you'll be penalized for it. Who knows, maybe some of those officials will bring that standard back to their countries with them. But, like the WC I think that will be a tough sell. Cheers. I am not sure that it was consistent throughout the tournament Dis ... now, admittedly I watched very very little of the games. When flipping through the channels I may have stopped and watched a minute or two here and there.... but I didn't see many reports of yellow cards for diving throughout the tournament on the highlights. Were there many? I guess I am asking .. How many yellow cards were given for diving in the whole tournament and how many were given in the Championship game? It's kind of akin to the diving calls that surfaced in the NHL playoffs this year (30 or so) when there was only 35 the WHOLE year that were called .... if it was indeed from day 1 of the tournament than I agree, but it didnt seem to me (albeit just looking at the highlights) that alot of yellows were handed out for diving prior to the Final. Here you go, Skilly. It's the Wikipedia link that states FIFA is now cracking down on diving. It makes reference to a study made in 2008. Diving (football)Now, the link isn't specific about this, but I'm figuring FIFA acted shortly after this study was conducted. If this is so, then the players have had plenty of time to adapt, I think anyway. I'll still try to find a stat on the amount of diving calls made in FIFA World Cup 2010. Might be a bit later tonight, though. Too many chores. Cheers. |
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Post by Yossarian on Jul 12, 2010 17:27:41 GMT -5
I loved the entire month, Final and all. Some matches drag, others race. No different than any other sport. Let the complainers complain, I say. Nobody is forcing soccer on them. I can't wait for June 2014, myself. Count me in, too. My wife and I are already planning a vacation to Brazil at the time; visit her family and friends, and catch some games as well. Sao Paolo incredibly might not be hosting any games because of the sorry state of the stadium, but most of the other towns are a short flight away. As far as the officiating, given how the powers choose to have the game officiated, it as good as can be. It has been 3 WC's in a row, where the officiating has sorely not lived up to the quality of play. There are just not enough good officials qualified to referee at this level. And the whole notion of having one referee, who needs to be in proper position to make all the right call is ludicrous. Think about it; the referee needs to be the best conditioned athlete on the field, as he runs more than any player. It is almost impossible to be mentally sharp for 90 minutes, when physical fatigue begins to set in. Then have to deal with simulation and players that never shut up....it is as good as it is going to get without a major overhaul. I wrote to FIFA years ago with suggestions, but no reply....for another day. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jul 12, 2010 18:40:27 GMT -5
I completely enjoyed every game I watched.
Tons of replays and slo-mo....a nice, close look at what remarkable conditioning and skills these guys possess. The desire/determination/compete level was amazing to me. You could almost feel the weight of their country's hopes on their shoulders.
The diving? Meh....it's always been there. There's only one ref....why not try to fool him? Gotta look for any advantage when one goal either way usually makes the difference.
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Post by seventeen on Jul 12, 2010 19:47:52 GMT -5
I love both sports, hockey and soccer. The World Cup is special, with so many teams from everywhere competing for the rather ugly Jules Rimet trophy. Yes, this final wasn't the most entertaining, and it was more thuggish than usual. I'm not sure if it was a deliberate strategy by the Dutch, or simply too much adrenaline. Both teams played it very tight defensively and while experts and purists enjoy the thrust and parry, it doesn't make for good theatre for most spectators.
I found that this time around there was much more interest from the general public in Canada than usual. I had lots of people ask me if I was following it, while in past years, there was rarely a mention of it except by hardcore soccer fans. It also drew fairly large audiences in the US; better by quite a bit than (cough, cough) hockey. Big deal, three legged turtle racing draws more viewers in the US than hockey.
What a letdown now, though. World Cup over, no hockey for 2 plus months. Baseball sucks until the Yankees go bankrupt, and only the CFL provides some enjoyable entertainment. I guess I'll have to just go out and play some sports instead of watching them.
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Post by Cranky on Jul 12, 2010 20:24:34 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Jul 13, 2010 23:24:28 GMT -5
Cheat!
That was a 2 legged turtle. I hate cheaters.
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