Carey Price

[PTH]

mic said:

Latendresse hasn't been chosen yet. Will Gainey move ?

He just did.

[clear observer]

badcompany said:

oh, I have CO's headache...

I'm not a big fan of taking goalies in the first round, I'm not a big fan of taking goalies high in the first round, and I am definitely not a big fan of taking a goalie in the first round higher than most thought he would go. ESPECIALLY when we could have filled other, much more pressing needs. Brule, Kopitar, Staal, Bourdon, Bourret, about 12 other guys would have taken (not to mention who I think will be better). I have faith in our scouting staff, but this is really stretching it.

I say again, yuck.

I said the IDENTICAL thing, almost verbatim, to freebzy only moments ago over the phone...unless the goaltender chosen is HEAD AND SHOULDERS a superior pick at the time of choosing, you DO NOT WASTE a 5th over-all on him...this was absoltely and clearly NOT the case....goddammit!!!

My head hurts even more.


Yuck, indeed.


CO

[warsawyak]

yeti said:

[I don't want Montreal to be a laughing stock of this year's draft...

Too late...[/quote]

Well, I did hope the second round will turn it round and I didn't err.

With Latendresse in our hands it's a different story now.

It ain't no fiesta, tough.

[HabbaDasher]

Price covers a lot of net, is technically sound, and mentally strong.
Give him a few years of development before denouncing his selection.
Timmins/Gainey obviously feel he'll be an NHL goalie.

[oldhabsfan]

I wouldn't get too down on this choice.

Maybe management felt that Price was the best player available at No. 5. If you make that judgement, what do you do? It does appear that Price has a great combination of talent and mind.

Montreal management and fans are in a better position than others to appreciate that really good goaltenders win Stanley Cups. Remember Plante, Dryden, Roy? Remember the old rule - you start in goal and build outwards?

So Montreal is loading up on goaltender prospects. None of the others has proven himself as an NHL star, and it will be a while before any gets the chance to do so. As the picture becomes clearer, surplus talent can be traded when other teams are desperate; maybe during a season or maybe in connection with some future draft.

I get the impression that Theodore has the talent to take the team to a Cup, but that he doesn't have the character/attitude needed to get the best out of his talent when the team needs him to play at his best. I think he will be traded as soon as the team can do without him *and* an opportunity offers to get really good value for him. I surmise that will happen during a season's play when someone else gets desperate, if Danis looks good enough with more testing. I would guess that now is not the time.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

oldhabsfan said:

I wouldn't get too down on this choice.

Maybe management felt that Price was the best player available at No. 5. If you make that judgement, what do you do? It does appear that Price has a great combination of talent and mind.

Montreal management and fans are in a better position than others to appreciate that really good goaltenders win Stanley Cups. Remember Plante, Dryden, Roy? Remember the old rule - you start in goal and build outwards?

So Montreal is loading up on goaltender prospects. None of the others has proven himself as an NHL star, and it will be a while before any gets the chance to do so. As the picture becomes clearer, surplus talent can be traded when other teams are desperate; maybe during a season or maybe in connection with some future draft.

I get the impression that Theodore has the talent to take the team to a Cup, but that he doesn't have the character/attitude needed to get the best out of his talent when the team needs him to play at his best. I think he will be traded as soon as the team can do without him *and* an opportunity offers to get really good value for him. I surmise that will happen during a season's play when someone else gets desperate, if Danis looks good enough with more testing. I would guess that now is not the time.

Good point.
Dryden did more to defeat the Bruins than Orr, Esposito, Hodge and Cashman did to beat the Hab's. At playoff time a hot goaltender is very important.
Good teams start with good goaltending.
Still I agree with CO that drafting a goaltender is a low % bet.

[clear observer]

oldhabsfan said:

really good goaltenders win Stanley Cups. Remember Plante, Dryden, Roy?

Yes they do....which of these were drafted 5th over-all?



CO

[jkr]

admin said:

oldhabsfan said:

really good goaltenders win Stanley Cups. Remember Plante, Dryden, Roy?

Yes they do....which of these were drafted 5th over-all?

Don't get me wrong CO, I agree with you. But according to your post on the history of drafting goalies in the first round, Grant Fuhr was picked 8th overall - pretty close.

[Yeti]

Gainey and Timmins really looked depressed after announcing Price as their pick. That's not a knock against Price but my feeling is that they made a strong pitch for a higher pick (Jonhson or Pouliot), it failed at the last minute. Something is telling me that selecting Price was not their no 1 scenario at all.

[seventeen]

I'd agree on that entirely, Yeti. Price may have been a poor second or third fantasy wish.

[mic]

yeti said:

Gainey and Timmins really looked depressed after announcing Price as their pick. That's not a knock against Price but my feeling is that they made a strong pitch for a higher pick (Jonhson or Pouliot), it failed at the last minute. Something is telling me that selecting Price was not their no 1 scenario at all.

That would be very weak from Gainey and Timmins. If you have the 5th pick, you better be prepared to select a player ! And even if something went wrong, there were still enough talented players to take. Or there were surely teams which would have traded with the Habs.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

At best Gainey looks like he's just survived a bout of indigestion—I wouldn't read too much into his demeanor. I find it impossible to even imagine that the Habs draft team was not prepared for every contigency. A couple of days ago in an interview Timmins had lumped Price in with the other top tier talent. Now we can only hope that when we pay the Price, he makes the opposition pay in return.

[clear observer]

Over the years I've seen MANY occassions where GM's take "time-outs" at the draft-table.

CO

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

There were some nameless on HabsRus who were ready to trade Theo after the Hell's Angels-Protection racket incident. He disappointed everybody after his MVP year and has been a middlin #1 goaltender since.
He and his agent act like Goodenow before the strike. Trade him while some GM still remembers his year in the sun. His asset value will begin to decline:
a) if he has a good year and approaches UFA status
b) if he has a bad year
c) if he starts to sit out
d) is his demands are unreasonable

Unless he has a great year again and expresses his undying devotion to Montreal and great love for Gainey, his value will drop.

[Forum Ghost]

yeti said:

Gainey and Timmins really looked depressed after announcing Price as their pick. That's not a knock against Price but my feeling is that they made a strong pitch for a higher pick (Jonhson or Pouliot), it failed at the last minute. Something is telling me that selecting Price was not their no 1 scenario at all.

I didn't think that they looked depressed at all. They may have made a pitch for the 2nd overall pick, but they knew all along, that as a worst-case scenario, they were going to pick fifth. I don't think that they looked dejected because they didn't get Johnson or Pouliot. There was no surprise that those guys were gone before no. 5. The Habs had an outside shot of getting either of them in the first place.

[Doc Holliday]

badcompany said:

I say again... Yuck.

Unless Price turns into the next Luongo, this is a terrible pick. Terrible.

Guys who will be potential UFA's within the next 3 years:

Luongo, Giguere, Biron, Brodeur, Denis, even Garon.

And that's just counting the home-grown talent. There is also Kiprusoff, Vokoun, Khabibulin (cripes, he's a UFA now), Turco... oh, I have CO's headache...

I'm not a big fan of taking goalies in the first round, I'm not a big fan of taking goalies high in the first round, and I am definitely not a big fan of taking a goalie in the first round higher than most thought he would go. ESPECIALLY when we could have filled other, much more pressing needs. Brule, Kopitar, Staal, Bourdon, Bourret, about 12 other guys would have taken (not to mention who I think will be better). I have faith in our scouting staff, but this is really stretching it.

I say again, yuck.

Yes but BC the same could be said about any positions. There will be a lot of young UFAs in their prime hitting the market, at every positions for the next 6 years (at least). Don't draft Brule because Lecavalier will be a UFA ? Don't draft Ryan because St-Louis will be a UFA ? and so on... As we've seen every year in Montreal, landing a big name UFA is not an easy task and in any case I'm sure you'll agree that drafting prospect and signing UFAs serve 2 very different purpose.

I don't want to over-defend Price, but you said yourself that every high rated pick beyond the first 2 seemed to have some nagging question mark... Price doesn't have that, he's the best goalie of the draft, a blue chip prospect, no ifs and buts. We could have traded down but that would have been an incredibly unpopular move (HABS trade away their best drafting spot in 21 years...).

Admit it, you're just unhappy every time we don't draft a dmen

[BadCompany]

docholliday said:

Admit it, you're just unhappy every time we don't draft a dmen

Well, that's true.

Nah, I just think goalies are a whole lot easier to acquire, than scoring power forwards, #1 defensemen, or elite two-way centers with size. We've had goalies coming out of our you-know-whats for about two decades now (and now most teams in the league have the same "problem") while we've spent the same time period looking for those other spots.

We've never had a problem getting a good goalie. A good power forward? <silence>

[Doc Holliday]

badcompany said:

We've never had a problem getting a good goalie. A good power forward? <silence>

...There are good goalies and there are superstar goalies... While I agree that every year there always seems to be a bunch of Lalime, T-Bo, Weeks, Cechmanec, Boucher, Snow and Potvin available there aren't too many Luongo, Brodeur or Roy to go about. They are as hard to get as #1 dmen, good power forward and bona-fide #1 center. Price carries potential superstar goalie. I would have been unhappy if we would have spent the #5 pick on just a potential starter but it just seems like Price is beyond that.

I'll give you that I really wanted us to get Brule (and still would) but the more I read about Price, the more I think the pick is not wasted.

[seventeen]

The focus for the Habs lately has been character. Price seems to have a lot of it and Gainey loves it. Maybe its that simple. We need a goalie eventually and this guy has some talent and a lot of character. Driving 400 miles round trip 3 times a week to attend practices shows commitment, or at least that he should be committed.

[Forum Ghost]

badcompany said:

Nah, I just think goalies are a whole lot easier to acquire, than scoring power forwards, #1 defensemen.

Elite goalies are just as difficult to acquire. And we could also say that, while drafting elite goaltenders is hard, it's also difficult to draft scoring power forwards and #1 defenceman. Elite players at any position are difficult to draft. Mediocre goalies are easy to acquire, but so are mediocre forwards and defenceman. Players like Manny Malhotra, Chad Kilger, Chris Gratton, etc. were all projected to be power forwards. Players like Brad Ference, Brian Allen and Paul Mara were, at a time, all projected to be stalwart, no. 1 defenceman.

We've had goalies coming out of our you-know-whats for about two decades now (and now most teams in the league have the same "problem") while we've spent the same time period looking for those other spots.

Sure the Habs have had a lot of goalies in their system over the past two decades, but only two of them (Roy and Theodore) were real deal NHL starting goalies. Which shows that when a supposed elite goalie comes along (like Price) it's hard to pass him up.

We've never had a problem getting a good goalie.

We haven't but other teams in the league have. The same way that the Habs have been searching for that elusive power forward, other teams, such as St. Louis, Ottawa and Vancouver have been looking for an elite no. 1 stopper. With the Habs, we seem to take for granted our luck in drafting quality netminders. Other teams would agree that it's not as easy as it seems. Boston had a goaltending carousal before Raycroft came into the picture... LA had the same thing going and has made a stab at solving it with Garon... Edmonton has been left out in the cold since Cujo left (and I don't really believe that much in Conklin's abilities)... Toronto has no consistency in goal either. They seem to switch no. 1 goalies every three or four years... Pittsburgh just recentry solved their revolving door of goalies with the drafting of Fleury. Before that it was years of Hedberg and J.S. Aubin...

I guess what I'm saying is that while it may seem easy to get a dependable no. 1 goalie via trade or late round drafting, there are a number of teams that have not had that luxury and some of those teams are still searching for it (Vancouver, St. Louis).

[Boston_Habs]

Good post, Forum Ghost.

I feel decidedly mixed about this pick. On the one hand I agree with the argument put forth by CO that drafting a goalie with a top 5 pick has a very high beta to it given that many, many top, even elite goalies, have been drafted much later. On the other hand, this was probably a draft to take a gamble on a goalie with lots of upside potential (I sound like Mel Kiper!). After Crosby, Jack Johnson was probably the only other player I would have wanted - everybody after that seemed pretty flawed, even the top 5-6 guys after Crosby (Ryan - poor skater, Pouliot - one-year wonder?, Brule - small, Kopitar - quality of competition, etc.)

It's entirely possible that the 2005 draft will go down as one of those dead drafts were nobody (save for Crosby) makes much of an impact. In that case, picking Carey Price may turn out to be pretty smart.

[clear observer]

bostonhabs said:

It's entirely possible that the 2005 draft will go down as one of those dead drafts were nobody (save for Crosby) makes much of an impact. In that case, picking Carey Price may turn out to be pretty smart.

VERY VERY possible....but not historically, mathetically nor statistically probable...and that's all I've been saying.



CO

[BadCompany]

docholliday said:

...There are good goalies and there are superstar goalies... While I agree that every year there always seems to be a bunch of Lalime, T-Bo, Weeks, Cechmanec, Boucher, Snow and Potvin available there aren't too many Luongo, Brodeur or Roy to go about. They are as hard to get as #1 dmen, good power forward and bona-fide #1 center. Price carries potential superstar goalie. I would have been unhappy if we would have spent the #5 pick on just a potential starter but it just seems like Price is beyond that.

I'll give you that I really wanted us to get Brule (and still would) but the more I read about Price, the more I think the pick is not wasted.

For both Doc, and Forum, as you both make the same (valid) point.

Hence my insistence that Price has to be a "Luongo-type" goalie for this pick to be worthwhile. If he is in fact, that good, then great, job well done! But, going into the draft few saw it that way, and in fact, many didn't even have Price as the best goalie available this year, let alone "the past decade." I don't put a heck of a lot of stock in post-draft articles, because they all tend to be fluff pieces, quoting scouting directors and GM's who have a lot vested in making it look like their picks were the best available. They probably even believe it, but I don't pay much attention to what they actually say (Josephine Tey, and all that). Going into the draft most had Price anywhere from 7th to late first round. If all these top 10 guys who were slated to go in this "strong draft" (which by the way, I also didn't believe) had so many major flaws, and Price was "the best goalie in a decade" why wasn't he rated #2, right behind that other guy there, who's name I forget?

As for teams looking for goalies, I think you overestimate the need. Sure, there are Lalime, T-Bo and Snow types available, but there are also Garon, Kiprusoff and Giguere types available. I compiled a list (won't post it, as this is getting long enough), and of the 30 teams, only 9 I didn't personally think had adequate goaltending (and I stretched by including Curtis Joseph and Dan Cloutier on the list). So 21 teams who are pretty comfortable with their goaltending situations. However, three teams have 2 goalies who could be #1s, (Boston, Colorado and Minnesota), and one team has 3 (Buffalo). So really, there are 26 true #1 goalies in the league already, not counting somebody who might surprise.

Its just not a position that teams have a huge need for. Elite goalies, yes. Luongo-types, for sure. But very good, #1's? Not really complicated to find one...

[Yeti]

I saw a pre-draft article on HF mentioning that Price could go third after Crosby and Johnson. Yep, Price has to be as good as Luongo otherwise it was a bad decision. I feel more confident now that he can be (Burke said he wasn't surprised to see Price go no 5)but the next WJC will be the first real test. Theodore, Garon and Luongo made a name for themselves playing for Team Canada. Price has to steal somes games and bring back a medal.

[Boston_Habs]

yeti said:

Yep, Price has to be as good as Luongo otherwise it was a bad decision.

I think that logic is a bit too static. You do have to take into consideration the alternatives available in THIS and previous drafts and not just base the logic the players and where they were picked. The concept of relative value is important. CO has a post on the main board of the history of goalies taken in the first round and many of them turned out to be either duds or just plain vanilla NHL goalies. But you can't just stop there and say that history tells you that picking a goalie in the 1st round is a waste. You have to look at who else was available with the pick.

In 1995 there were 4 goalies taken in the first round (Giguere, Biron, Boucher, Denis). Wasted picks, right? But after Giguere was picked at #10 these were the best skaters picked in the rest of the 1st and 2nd rounds: Petr Sykora, Denis Gauthier, Alexei Morozov, Georges Laraque, Jocehn Hecht. That's it. Other than Sykora, none of those guys turned out so hot as to render the goalie picks useless.

Same goes here. Sure there may be a gem that outperforms but I agree with BC that after Crosby and maybe Jack Johnson, the rest of the top 10 group was weak in terms of being able to project as eithe top 6 forwards or top 2 dmen. I think Brule's size makes him a huge gamble at #5 and when people are questioning the skating ability of the 2nd pick (Bobby Ryan) I think that is a huge statement concerning the overall quality of the draft.

[clear observer]

bostonhabs said:

yeti said:

Yep, Price has to be as good as Luongo otherwise it was a bad decision.

CO has a post on the main board of the history of goalies taken in the first round and many of them turned out to be either duds or just plain vanilla NHL goalies. But you can't just stop there and say that history tells you that picking a goalie in the 1st round is a waste. You have to look at who else was available with the pick.

Answer: Hundreds of players are available with the pick; and within that pool there are ONLY so many "gem" skaters and only so many "gem" goaltenders...and, once again, the numbers do not lie...there are more from column "A" than there are from column "B"....which column or "pool" would you pick from?


CO

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

seventeen said:

The focus for the Habs lately has been character. Price seems to have a lot of it and Gainey loves it. Maybe its that simple. We need a goalie eventually and this guy has some talent and a lot of character. Driving 400 miles round trip 3 times a week to attend practices shows commitment, or at least that he should be committed.

Great goaltenders are notorious for not having good character.

Plante was a weird loner.
Sawchuck strange.
Bower a tyrant.
Roy a primadonna.
Theodore demanding.
Dryden aloof loner.

I don't want a goaltender who lets the puck in and takes responsibility. They have to chew out the defense, get angry and stop the next shot.
I want a goaltender who stops the puck.

All that said, the scouting team saw something in Price that in their opinion trumped the historical record of drafting goaltenders in the first round. I'm sure Gainey knows the odds, stats, choices and strengths. He made a calculated choice. I calculated Kopitar. What do I know?
He thought Price was the best goaltender available (not everyone agreed)
Price is big, well schooled, played well (at his level), good kid with a good attitude, quick reflexes, positionally sound. If Gainey is right, it was a brilliant move. Results in four years.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

habsfaninla said:

seventeen said:

The focus for the Habs lately has been character. Price seems to have a lot of it and Gainey loves it. Maybe its that simple. We need a goalie eventually and this guy has some talent and a lot of character. Driving 400 miles round trip 3 times a week to attend practices shows commitment, or at least that he should be committed.

Great goaltenders are notorious for not having good character.

Plante was a weird loner.
Sawchuck strange.
Bower a tyrant.
Roy a primadonna.
Theodore demanding.
Dryden aloof loner.

I don't want a goaltender who lets the puck in and takes responsibility. They have to chew out the defense, get angry and stop the next shot.
I want a goaltender who stops the puck.

All that said, the scouting team saw something in Price that in their opinion trumped the historical record of drafting goaltenders in the first round. I'm sure Gainey knows the odds, stats, choices and strengths. He made a calculated choice. I calculated Kopitar. What do I know?
He thought Price was the best goaltender available (not everyone agreed)
Price is big, well schooled, played well (at his level), good kid with a good attitude, quick reflexes, positionally sound. If Gainey is right, it was a brilliant move. Results in four years.

I am looking for some negative press on Price. Even mentions of problem areas in his game. I'll keep you posted.

[HabbaDasher]

OK.
I've read through this entire thread, and determined that the typical HabsRus poster knows more about hockey, talent, chemistry, finance, winning....than Bob Gainey, Trevor Timmons, and the rest of the Habs' riff-raff management.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

habbadasher said:

OK.
I've read through this entire thread, and determined that the typical HabsRus poster knows more about hockey, talent, chemistry, finance, winning....than Bob Gainey, Trevor Timmons, and the rest of the Habs' riff-raff management.

Too bad we've all taken early retirement.