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Post by seventeen on Jun 23, 2019 16:19:26 GMT -5
I know many seem to see this, but when I listen to his press conferences, that's not what I hear. He seems to be more humble lately, but occasionally the old arrogance shows through. The drafting seems to have been better the last three drafts, partly because we've had more picks and the drafts have been of better quality. The improvement in development in Europe generally (especially Sweden and Finland) and the maturation of the USNTDP has added quality and quantity to the draft. Canada, in fact, seems to be falling behind give the number of kids playing hockey in all of these countries.
Back to the drafting. The outlook for the team is hugely improved. Juulsen is showing promise. Poehling looked good in a cameo performance adding to the lustre of the 2017 picks. Isn't it great having positive things to appreciate in the years to come?
I think the next, difficult part for Bergevin will be where he has to start trading some of his vets to stock the draft cupboard and to make room for the kids. It's easy to say, 'better to trade a guy a year early than a year late', but more difficult to actually do it when the player is still performing and there's no apparent reason to move him. The Josh Donaldson situation for the Blue Jays is an excellent example.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 23, 2019 16:33:11 GMT -5
I remember when the knock on the organization was a lack of d-men in the system ... Marc Bergevin is doing something similar to what Bob Gainey did a few years back ... the Habs used 10 of their 15 selections over the 2006 and 2007 drafts to pick d-men * (only 3 of those picks actually made it to the show and none of them are still with the team) ... Berg is doing something similar ... he had to address the organization's lack of centres problem last year and now he's addressing the concerns with LHD ... Cheers. What concerns me, Dis, is that the weakness is fairly clear. We had DD and PLeks as our top 2 centres and weren't drafting centres. The the obvious criticism starts and the change in draft strategy begins. A team should never be that weak at centre with no prospects coming. There or defence are the two critical posiions. You can always turn a centre into a winger. No worries, I agree with what you're saying, Mur ... the lack of centres has been a thorn in the side ever since the '93 Cup winner ... Marc Bergevin was derelict in not addressing that shortfall, for sure ... you know yourself, I was hard on Bergevin for a long time, but the team is moving forward, organizational needs are being addressed and he deserves credit for that ... I guess Trevor Timmins has binge-drafted the C/LHD positions the past two drafts, but he's looking after the organizational needs ... I don't know, maybe he'll revert back to a more traditional style of drafting once all of the needs have been addressed ... can't say, man ... maybe LW is next ... Cheers. |
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Post by PTH on Jun 23, 2019 17:15:30 GMT -5
I know many seem to see this, but when I listen to his press conferences, that's not what I hear. He seems to be more humble lately, but occasionally the old arrogance shows through. .... Well, he's clearly making the case that he's managing for the good of the franchise, not to keep his job. He could make a good case that he could have given up Kotkaniemi for O'Reilly and made the playoffs this season, but I think it wouldn't have been for the long-term health of the franchise. O'Reilly doesn't get us a cup this season, but Kotkaniemi might get us a Cup in 5 years (or at least, make us a better team than ROR would) |
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Post by blny on Jun 23, 2019 17:42:12 GMT -5
He seems to be more humble lately, but occasionally the old arrogance shows through. .... Well, he's clearly making the case that he's managing for the good of the franchise, not to keep his job. He could make a good case that he could have given up Kotkaniemi for O'Reilly and made the playoffs this season, but I think it wouldn't have been for the long-term health of the franchise. O'Reilly doesn't get us a cup this season, but Kotkaniemi might get us a Cup in 5 years (or at least, make us a better team than ROR would) It's been as many as perhaps 30-35 years since we could say we have the quality prospect/21 and under depth we currently have. That's not hyperbole from fans. That's from well informed onlookers. Let's look at the kids from 2016 onward that are highly regarded, are making an impact, or are poised to. 2015 - Juulsen at 22 gets an honorable mention. Injuries have held him back, but he looks good when given the chance. I expect him on the opening night roster and to work his way upward. 2016 - Mete. Elite skater, moves puck well. Just hasn't put the offense together yet. The brief trip back to Laval mid-year helped him a lot. 2017 - Poehling, Brook, Fleury and Primeau. Excellent skating center with size and the chance to be a really strong 2-way center for years. RHD with excellent all around game. Primeau was likely the best goalie in the NCAA the last 2 years. All three turn pro this fall and join Fleury who had a really nice first pro year. 2018 - KK. Big rangy center with size and skill. Almost young enough for 2019 draft. Russian defender that managed to get legit ice time in KHL as an 18 year old and was the best defender at the wjc. Blends Emelin hitting with more offensive potential. A couple of Euro centers in Ylonen and Olofsson. Some mid to late round potential sleepers. 2019 - CC. Best pure goal scorer in the draft. Elite shot, speed, and IQ. Ignore the rest of the 2019 draft for a minute. That's more than a handful of guys who either will be, or have a great chance to be, the core of the club. It's an enviable group to have. The current core of the Canadiens is going to get pushed hard by this group. The heirs will be better for it, and we'll get more out of guys trying to keep jobs. I mentioned 30-35 years above, because I can't recall a time when we had such a pending influx of talent since. Those that don't directly make the Habs will gain experience in Laval like players did in Sherbrooke. The latter helped to make the Canadiens a focal point in the league from 1986 through 1993. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 23, 2019 18:46:09 GMT -5
The Bergie attitude of "I'm the smartest guy in the room" has seemed to spread to the rest of his stooges now. Maybe if Foxhole Inc. were still intact, sure, but Marc Bergevin did a good job in dismantling that ... I haven't seen the arrogance in Bergevin for quite some time now ... if anything, I think he knows he'll be canned if he fails again and that can be quite humbling ... Cheers. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 23, 2019 20:30:46 GMT -5
Here is another good summary of the draft picks, including some excerpts from some guides (or a tweet or two in the case of the obscure guys). I am pretty comfortable that we will get some players out of this draft. It will just take some time. Man, I hope Norlinder is good to go in time for the Summer Showcase. I want to see him against guys I have seen play lots. That is a good measuring stick. Ditto with Struble, hope he gets some games in this summer. www.allaboutthehabs.ca/draft-recap-habs-stock-up-on-defense/ |
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Post by PTH on Jun 23, 2019 21:20:39 GMT -5
... 2015 - Juulsen at 22 gets an honorable mention. Injuries have held him back, but he looks good when given the chance. I expect him on the opening night roster and to work his way upward. 2016 - Mete. Elite skater, moves puck well. Just hasn't put the offense together yet. The brief trip back to Laval mid-year helped him a lot. 2017 - Poehling, Brook, Fleury and Primeau. Excellent skating center with size and the chance to be a really strong 2-way center for years. RHD with excellent all around game. Primeau was likely the best goalie in the NCAA the last 2 years. All three turn pro this fall and join Fleury who had a really nice first pro year. 2018 - KK. Big rangy center with size and skill. Almost young enough for 2019 draft. Russian defender that managed to get legit ice time in KHL as an 18 year old and was the best defender at the wjc. Blends Emelin hitting with more offensive potential. A couple of Euro centers in Ylonen and Olofsson. Some mid to late round potential sleepers. 2019 - CC. Best pure goal scorer in the draft. Elite shot, speed, and IQ. .... And you didn't even mention Suzuki... |
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Post by blny on Jun 23, 2019 22:50:48 GMT -5
... 2015 - Juulsen at 22 gets an honorable mention. Injuries have held him back, but he looks good when given the chance. I expect him on the opening night roster and to work his way upward. 2016 - Mete. Elite skater, moves puck well. Just hasn't put the offense together yet. The brief trip back to Laval mid-year helped him a lot. 2017 - Poehling, Brook, Fleury and Primeau. Excellent skating center with size and the chance to be a really strong 2-way center for years. RHD with excellent all around game. Primeau was likely the best goalie in the NCAA the last 2 years. All three turn pro this fall and join Fleury who had a really nice first pro year. 2018 - KK. Big rangy center with size and skill. Almost young enough for 2019 draft. Russian defender that managed to get legit ice time in KHL as an 18 year old and was the best defender at the wjc. Blends Emelin hitting with more offensive potential. A couple of Euro centers in Ylonen and Olofsson. Some mid to late round potential sleepers. 2019 - CC. Best pure goal scorer in the draft. Elite shot, speed, and IQ. .... And you didn't even mention Suzuki... Forgot, as I was looking at things from the perspective of the draft and kids we've added in that manner. He definitely deserves a mention though, and further adds to an enviable group. I intentionally left out Jake Evans, as he's 23. But, he had a very solid first pro year and he's a smart player. I'm not sure what his future holds, but he's definitely a solid prospect. From a bare cupboard to a system that has a lot of young talent. What's even more important - and comparable to the 80s - is that many of them will be playing together and growing as players together. That continuity is a big plus. It's a big reason that Tampa has been so good. Factor in Bouchard and the new staff in Laval, and it's promising to say the least. |
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Post by BadCompany on Jun 24, 2019 9:03:45 GMT -5
I take those winner/loser articles written after the completion of the draft with a grain of salt. I am in no way a Bergevin apologist, and I also must admit that day 2 of the draft left me very dissatisfied. However, one must remember that EVERYONE loved the Habs 2012 crop. In retrospect, 2012 was a very poor crop. I came here to say just this. In 2012 we got all the "name" players, in that all our picks had been extensively reviewed and talked about. I'm no draft expert, but I remember writing an email to a friend the next day saying that on cue I could talk about all but one of the players we picked that year (I didn't know much about Nystrom). So it seemed like a great draft because "hey, I know that guy!" So three years, time will tell, yada yada yada. One thing I WOULD like to mention though, is that the emphasis on the overagers seem to be a departure from our regularly scheduled programming. Was this by design? Is Timmins trying to get ahead of the curve on a new-fangled draft strategy? Take the older kids because there is less uncertainty with their development curve? It's been mentioned that for at least a couple of those guys he took them in the draft so that he wouldn't have to chase them as free agents. I guess I get that. There is always this sort of frenzy over undrafted NCAA and CHL kids, or older Europeans "who just took a little longer to develop", so maybe there is a strategy there. But that seems a little far-fetched to me. Or maybe it was a CBA issue? Do they not get to hold onto some of these Europeans for longer? Maybe they can hide some kids from the expansion draft? Or did Timmins' draft list just fall that way? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 24, 2019 9:59:26 GMT -5
I was also surprised that our next 2 picks after Caufield have seemingly thin resumes. Using a 2nd round pick on a US prep school player seems like a huge stretch. Was he really projected to go that high? Why wasn't he playing the development league? It's hard to assess talent but at least two of the metrics are actual production and level of competition. Just not a whole lot of info to go on besides just projecting raw talent.
You want to have the highest conviction possible when drafting in the early rounds, and I'm just not sure how confident you can be that the skills of Jayden Struble will translate at higher levels. I know Ryan McDonagh was drafted in the 1st round as a high schooler but the US junior league wasn't what it is today. And David Fischer was also drafted in the 1st round out of high school and he was a total bust.
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Post by seventeen on Jun 24, 2019 11:14:34 GMT -5
He seems to be more humble lately, but occasionally the old arrogance shows through. .... Well, he's clearly making the case that he's managing for the good of the franchise, not to keep his job. He could make a good case that he could have given up Kotkaniemi for O'Reilly and made the playoffs this season, but I think it wouldn't have been for the long-term health of the franchise. O'Reilly doesn't get us a cup this season, but Kotkaniemi might get us a Cup in 5 years (or at least, make us a better team than ROR would) Yes. |
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Post by blny on Jun 24, 2019 11:15:12 GMT -5
I was also surprised that our next 2 picks after Caufield have seemingly thin resumes. Using a 2nd round pick on a US prep school player seems like a huge stretch. Was he really projected to go that high? Why wasn't he playing the development league? It's hard to assess talent but at least two of the metrics are actual production and level of competition. Just not a whole lot of info to go on besides just projecting raw talent. You want to have the highest conviction possible when drafting in the early rounds, and I'm just not sure how confident you can be that the skills of Jayden Struble will translate at higher levels. I know Ryan McDonagh was drafted in the 1st round as a high schooler but the US junior league wasn't what it is today. And David Fischer was also drafted in the 1st round out of high school and he was a total bust. It certainly seems like it could be something of a home run swing, but aside from one scouting report, his selection at 46 was right in the wheelhouse of where he was expected to go. Something that came up frequently during the coverage of the draft - from SN and those they spoke with - was getting kids who are athletes. There's an increasing emphasis on kids that play multiple sports. Well-rounded kids that develop skills and coordination playing more than one sport are becoming more and more coveted. This pick certainly seems to fit that ideology. Factor in the emphasis being placed on the combine, where he rated very highly, and I think the decision becomes clearer. Does he have the hockey sense? Time will tell. Cowan remarked how poised he was during press after the selection. The ability to be articulate at 18 with that many cameras and mics means (to me) that he's a cool customer and has a head on his shoulders. If he was that comfortable in his interview with the Canadiens, it may be what swayed them. You can't have hockey sense without a good head on your shoulders and the ability to perform under pressure. He'd have learned some of that playing at the LLWS. He's 6' and 205lbs, physically powerful, and skates very well. Subban was picked 3 spots earlier in 2007. Subban had more traditional pedigree of course, but they saw things they liked. He'll go to an excellent tier 2 league next year and then off to college at a good Northeastern program. |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 24, 2019 13:43:03 GMT -5
One thing I WOULD like to mention though, is that the emphasis on the overagers seem to be a departure from our regularly scheduled programming. Was this by design? Is Timmins trying to get ahead of the curve on a new-fangled draft strategy? Take the older kids because there is less uncertainty with their development curve? Dubas put more emphasis on that starting a couple of years ago. I think Toronto's analytics guys had something to do with that. Korshkov was 20 in 2016, Kara was 19 in 2017 as was Bobylev in 2016. Russians, essentially. Doesn't seem to have shown much in the way of results yet. |
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Post by blny on Jun 24, 2019 14:03:59 GMT -5
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 24, 2019 15:45:51 GMT -5
TT was on TSN690 today talking the draft with Tony Marinaro.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Sept 4, 2019 11:28:39 GMT -5
... some more interesting exchanges at the draft ... ... (6:54) "We're moving back" - Bergevin ... |
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Post by blny on Sept 4, 2019 11:48:18 GMT -5
LOL at "City Morgue".
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 4, 2019 12:05:17 GMT -5
He seemed willing to move down, quite a few times or trade picks for next year. Too bad we didn't see offers to make deals to move up.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 4, 2019 15:16:11 GMT -5
Berg seemed to be having a lot of fun that day. What I took from this is that Berg isn't really that involved in the draft selections. Moving picks, yes, but selection? no. There were times when he didn't even seem sure at what point they were in the draft selection process. He certainly trusts Timmins to look after that part of it.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Sept 15, 2019 20:36:21 GMT -5
He seems to be more humble lately, but occasionally the old arrogance shows through. .... Well, he's clearly making the case that he's managing for the good of the franchise, not to keep his job. He could make a good case that he could have given up Kotkaniemi for O'Reilly and made the playoffs this season, but I think it wouldn't have been for the long-term health of the franchise. O'Reilly doesn't get us a cup this season, but Kotkaniemi might get us a Cup in 5 years (or at least, make us a better team than ROR would) Bergevin has never managed to keep his job, but somehow he is still there. |
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