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Post by blny on Nov 11, 2019 15:44:55 GMT -5
The same could be said if we moved to another country, permanent or temporary, and were unaware, unfamiliar, without context. I can say that I went to numerous school-based ceremonies from elementary through high school. Disrespect isn't limited to cultural ignorance. Plenty of kids, regardless of background, can act inappropriately. And we didn't have that hand held distraction that is a cell phone. Agreed. Few kids anywhere these days can resist their phone.  It made me consider how the First and Second World wars are remembered outside Europe and North America. For example in China, the Second World War is known as the Anti-Japanese War of Resistance where only the role of Mao's communist forces is commemorated. In Japan, anything considered "embarrassing" prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki is being erased from textbooks or edited out of official narratives. We're 101 years removed from the War to end all Wars. The US has its Civil War reenactments, but I don't know if any other parts of the world spend much time commemorating wars from more than a century ago. The geographic and political landscapes have changed so much. IMO, we choose to remember these times in history not just because of the loss. Many felt that Canada wasn't a unified country until it went to WW1. A 40 year old nation still very regional. That common cause brought people together. For some, I think the poppy is as synonymous as the maple leaf. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's easily a generation of Canadians who don't have that context to draw from. So, while they may knowledge, or even experience, of loss from the context of their ancestry, the WW's are not their ancestry. |
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 15:59:51 GMT -5
Dis put up a thread in the non-habs board. I think Dis locked that thread. |
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 16:16:47 GMT -5
The only other place I've seen the poppy is the U.K. All the public figures wear it & it's even woven I to the Premier League jerseys over the November time period.
It's taken very seriously there. In fact, a Northern Irish player, James McLean, who refused to wear a poppy on his jersey has received death threats for years.
Wonder what the fallout will 've for this.
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Post by franko on Nov 11, 2019 17:07:36 GMT -5
he's a martyr. left wing kooks are out to get him, it's the ruination of the country, yada yada yada
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 11, 2019 17:22:05 GMT -5
Good post, there, BC ... The problem isn’t what Don Cherry said; we expect that. Nor is the problem with Sportsnet (or CBC), tsk-tsking their way into doing nothing. We expect that too. The problem isn’t even the high ratings, because really that’s just a symptom of the disease. The problem is that a lot of people agree with Don Cherry. A lot. There is a significant portion of the population, the Canadian population, that watches and listens to Don Cherry’s rants… and nod their heads in agreement. Look to Cherry’s left; Ron Maclean didn’t just sit there in silent disagreement – or even just cowardly silence – he nodded along. Even gave the trademark Cherry thumbs up of approval in the end. This is Ron Maclean, Mr. Small-Town Hockey. A guy who has re-invented himself as the purveyor of Hockey In It’s Purest Form, the voice of the voiceless, the man who brings the good and fine people of Real Canada into our living rooms every week. He, as their representative, nodded along. I remember back in the late-80s, early-90s and the word on Don Cherry was that he said a lot of things that people are thinking" and that was the main reason people were watching him ... and, as you said, there are a lot of people who still watch and agree with him today ... I've served with many immigrants who chose to wear the uniform in defence of the country and if that isn't enough, then check out any local police force where we'll find a huge amount of immigrants who are wearing other uniforms so as to keep our communities safe ... I know immigrants who wear poppies; heck, some of them even wish me Merry Christmas, for goodness sake and I know immigrants who don't ... this also holds true with 'homegrown' Canadians where some support Remembrance Day and some who don't ... no one is calling them out ... I agree with you in that (one of) the problem is us, but I think this also encroaches on freedom of speech ... as much as we flog our 'freedom of speech' and the 'you're-entitle-to-say-what-you-want' postures in Canada, it simply isn't true ... as a former harassment advisor in the military, the main problem we had was educating soldiers to what was offensive and what wasn't and, it's the same for civilians ... it's not enough that something wrong was said but you don't even have to be in the conversation to be offended ... you could be walking by and overhear something you don't like and you can also file a complaint with no repercussions on the complainant ... if you're the one being called to the carpet, you don't even have the right to know who it was that took offence to what you said ... what Don Cherry said was wrong and I don't agree with his opinion, but I respect his right to say what he wants ... whether it offends you or whether you endorse it that's how freedom of speech works ... not every broadcast should convey a personalized Valentine card addressed to every viewer's self-esteem but neither should they endorse profiling, racism or whatever-the-flavour-of-the-day is ... I lived in Europe for 5 yrs and I've done two 6-month tours in the Middle East and in all of my travels I don't know of any country in the world, other than Canada, where it's okay to be more offended than the victim ... that's the mindset many have chosen here and it's not about making the victims feel good, it's more about making them feel good ... one last thing, Sportsnet, CBC, and HNIC have had ample opportunities to dismiss Cherry well before this, but they chose not to do anything ... if I'm Cherry why would I care what the network thinks; I've been allowed to get this far, after all ... Enabling 101 ... now their hand has been forced and his dismissal is more about bowing to public pressure than it is about network values ... more is to pity ... Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 17:23:12 GMT -5
My spouse is an immigrant, so I certainly hope that the door DOES hit Don on the way out. Ron is complicit in letting him have his tirades too, don't forget.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 11, 2019 17:23:40 GMT -5
Dis put up a thread in the non-habs board. I think Dis locked that thread. I did fellas, yes ... this thread was done well in advance of me putting mine up and I wanted to respect that ... Cheers. |
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 17:57:10 GMT -5
My spouse is an immigrant, so I certainly hope that the door DOES hit Don on the way out. Ron is complicit in letting him have his tirades too, don't forget. McLean's apology probably saved his job. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 18:01:20 GMT -5
My spouse is an immigrant, so I certainly hope that the door DOES hit Don on the way out. Ron is complicit in letting him have his tirades too, don't forget. McLean's apology probably saved his job. McLean's apology is over a decade late. He said something because he was expected to but didn't act when he needed to. He acknowledges that he was wrong, fine, but this only happened because of the outcry over Don's tirade. Ron says nothing otherwise. |
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 18:06:54 GMT -5
McLean's apology probably saved his job. McLean's apology is over a decade late. He said something because he was expected to but didn't act when he needed to. He acknowledges that he was wrong, fine, but this only happened because of the outcry over Don's tirade. Ron says nothing otherwise. Agreed. Cherry was off the leash for years & McLean just sat there looking dumb. But it ultimately rests with management. These geniuses let Cherry do as he pleased for years. Now they act surprised? |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 11, 2019 18:38:41 GMT -5
McLean's apology is over a decade late. He said something because he was expected to but didn't act when he needed to. He acknowledges that he was wrong, fine, but this only happened because of the outcry over Don's tirade. Ron says nothing otherwise. Agreed. Cherry was off the leash for years & McLean just sat there looking dumb. But it ultimately rests with management. These geniuses let Cherry do as he pleased for years. Now they act surprised? You have to blame the networks also, fellas ... I was just saying to BC that the networks have been enabling Don Cherry for years ... the only disciplinary actions he's really had to face were tongue-lashings, so ... most of the disdain/criticism we're seeing now is nothing more than a mad rush for inclusion to the Moral High Ground Group ... Twitter needs a good dose of bran, man ... Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2019 18:53:18 GMT -5
You have to blame the networks also, fellas ... I was just saying to BC that the networks have been enabling Don Cherry for years ... the only disciplinary actions he's really had to face were tongue-lashings, so ... most of the disdain/criticism we're seeing now is nothing more than a mad rush for inclusion to the Moral High Ground Group ... Twitter needs a good dose of bran, man ... Cheers. Of course, Dis. As annoyed as many of us have been with Don over the years, the networks put up with it because he brought in money. Now that their bottom line is at risk of being affected, now they let Don go. |
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Post by blny on Nov 11, 2019 19:16:32 GMT -5
Good post, there, BC ... The problem isn’t what Don Cherry said; we expect that. Nor is the problem with Sportsnet (or CBC), tsk-tsking their way into doing nothing. We expect that too. The problem isn’t even the high ratings, because really that’s just a symptom of the disease. The problem is that a lot of people agree with Don Cherry. A lot. There is a significant portion of the population, the Canadian population, that watches and listens to Don Cherry’s rants… and nod their heads in agreement. Look to Cherry’s left; Ron Maclean didn’t just sit there in silent disagreement – or even just cowardly silence – he nodded along. Even gave the trademark Cherry thumbs up of approval in the end. This is Ron Maclean, Mr. Small-Town Hockey. A guy who has re-invented himself as the purveyor of Hockey In It’s Purest Form, the voice of the voiceless, the man who brings the good and fine people of Real Canada into our living rooms every week. He, as their representative, nodded along. I remember back in the late-80s, early-90s and the word on Don Cherry was that he said a lot of things that people are thinking" and that was the main reason people were watching him ... and, as you said, there are a lot of people who still watch and agree with him today ... I've served with many immigrants who chose to wear the uniform in defence of the country and if that isn't enough, then check out any local police force where we'll find a huge amount of immigrants who are wearing other uniforms so as to keep our communities safe ... I know immigrants who wear poppies; heck, some of them even wish me Merry Christmas, for goodness sake and I know immigrants who don't ... this also holds true with 'homegrown' Canadians where some support Remembrance Day and some who don't ... no one is calling them out ... I agree with you in that (one of) the problem is us, but I think this also encroaches on freedom of speech ... as much as we flog our 'freedom of speech' and the 'you're-entitle-to-say-what-you-want' postures in Canada, it simply isn't true ... as a former harassment advisor in the military, the main problem we had was educating soldiers to what was offensive and what wasn't and, it's the same for civilians ... it's not enough that something wrong was said but you don't even have to be in the conversation to be offended ... you could be walking by and overhear something you don't like and you can also file a complaint with no repercussions on the complainant ... if you're the one being called to the carpet, you don't even have the right to know who it was that took offence to what you said ... what Don Cherry said was wrong and I don't agree with his opinion, but I respect his right to say what he wants ... whether it offends you or whether you endorse it that's how freedom of speech works ... not every broadcast should convey a personalized Valentine card addressed to every viewer's self-esteem but neither should they endorse profiling, racism or whatever-the-flavour-of-the-day is ... I lived in Europe for 5 yrs and I've done two 6-month tours in the Middle East and in all of my travels I don't know of any country in the world, other than Canada, where it's okay to be more offended than the victim ... that's the mindset many have chosen here and it's not about making the victims feel good, it's more about making them feel good ... one last thing, Sportsnet, CBC, and HNIC have had ample opportunities to dismiss Cherry well before this, but they chose not to do anything ... if I'm Cherry why would I care what the network thinks; I've been allowed to get this far, after all ... Enabling 101 ... now their hand has been forced and his dismissal is more about bowing to public pressure than it is about network values ... more is to pity ... Cheers. Hate speech isn't allowed under our free speech. It's considered restricted speech. There will be those that will say free speech died in this country Saturday night. They couldn't be more wrong. The outcry afterwards was a clear demonstration of free speech at work in this country. They spoke the loudest. It's unclear to me, but there's a notion on the web that there's a 5 second delay on Coach's Corner. Producers for HNIC could have pulled the plug and went to commercial, but they didn't. They let him run. It wasn't until the saw the backlash that they got the PR department involved. I think it speaks to an overall need to cleanse the product. It's not just that viewership is down and Roger's is bleeding money. They're clearly out of touch with enough people that they had to be reactive instead of proactive. |
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Post by BadCompany on Nov 11, 2019 19:34:33 GMT -5
Two things:
1) We have never had, nor will we ever have, true, 100% free speech. Nor should we.
2) "Freedom of speech" does not mean "Freedom from consequences".
To the first point, we all know the exceptions; you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater, for example. Nor can you slander somebody's name to the point where they are financially hurt by your words. And lately, you cannot slander a group of people simply for being that group of people.
All three of those actions are punishable by legal means. They are against the law. There are consequences to your words. But there are also societal constraints on your "free" speech. If you are a McDonald's employee and you tell all the customers that you spit in their food you are going to get fired. Doesn't matter whether you did or not, you're hurting the company's bottom line with your words. Same thing if you are the CEO of Ford and you hold a press conference where you tell everybody that Ford cars suck and that everybody should buy a Toyota. You're gonna get fired. Your "free" speech did not come without consequences.
That's what appears to have happened with Cherry. Rogers did a cost/benefit analysis and decided that keeping Cherry was not good for their bottom line. Now the cynic in me says that it's not because they're worried about a backlash over his words, but simply because they've been trying to cut costs for some time now, and this is a pretty good opportunity to fire a guy who makes quite a lot of money for doing very little work. But that's a whole other story.
My point remains though; there are a LOT of people who are mad at this. A LOT. Again, maybe not the majority, but probably a lot more than we would like to think. That's a problem that isn't going to go away simply by firing Don Cherry.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 11, 2019 20:01:21 GMT -5
Good post, there, BC ... I remember back in the late-80s, early-90s and the word on Don Cherry was that he said a lot of things that people are thinking" and that was the main reason people were watching him ... and, as you said, there are a lot of people who still watch and agree with him today ... I've served with many immigrants who chose to wear the uniform in defence of the country and if that isn't enough, then check out any local police force where we'll find a huge amount of immigrants who are wearing other uniforms so as to keep our communities safe ... I know immigrants who wear poppies; heck, some of them even wish me Merry Christmas, for goodness sake and I know immigrants who don't ... this also holds true with 'homegrown' Canadians where some support Remembrance Day and some who don't ... no one is calling them out ... I agree with you in that (one of) the problem is us, but I think this also encroaches on freedom of speech ... as much as we flog our 'freedom of speech' and the 'you're-entitle-to-say-what-you-want' postures in Canada, it simply isn't true ... as a former harassment advisor in the military, the main problem we had was educating soldiers to what was offensive and what wasn't and, it's the same for civilians ... it's not enough that something wrong was said but you don't even have to be in the conversation to be offended ... you could be walking by and overhear something you don't like and you can also file a complaint with no repercussions on the complainant ... if you're the one being called to the carpet, you don't even have the right to know who it was that took offence to what you said ... what Don Cherry said was wrong and I don't agree with his opinion, but I respect his right to say what he wants ... whether it offends you or whether you endorse it that's how freedom of speech works ... not every broadcast should convey a personalized Valentine card addressed to every viewer's self-esteem but neither should they endorse profiling, racism or whatever-the-flavour-of-the-day is ... I lived in Europe for 5 yrs and I've done two 6-month tours in the Middle East and in all of my travels I don't know of any country in the world, other than Canada, where it's okay to be more offended than the victim ... that's the mindset many have chosen here and it's not about making the victims feel good, it's more about making them feel good ... one last thing, Sportsnet, CBC, and HNIC have had ample opportunities to dismiss Cherry well before this, but they chose not to do anything ... if I'm Cherry why would I care what the network thinks; I've been allowed to get this far, after all ... Enabling 101 ... now their hand has been forced and his dismissal is more about bowing to public pressure than it is about network values ... more is to pity ... Cheers. Hate speech isn't allowed under our free speech. It's considered restricted speech. There will be those that will say free speech died in this country Saturday night. They couldn't be more wrong. The outcry afterwards was a clear demonstration of free speech at work in this country. They spoke the loudest. They could have avoided all of this had they dismissed Don Cherry years ago ... it wasn't enough that he called out Europeans and "French guys" a few years back ... they kept him on and this is the result ... I thought of the delay just as soon as the story broke ... good point ... Cheers. |
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Post by blny on Nov 11, 2019 20:20:52 GMT -5
Hate speech isn't allowed under our free speech. It's considered restricted speech. There will be those that will say free speech died in this country Saturday night. They couldn't be more wrong. The outcry afterwards was a clear demonstration of free speech at work in this country. They spoke the loudest. They could have avoided all of this had they dismissed Don Cherry years ago ... it wasn't enough that he called out Europeans and "French guys" a few years back ... they kept him on and this is the result ... I thought of the delay just as soon as the story broke ... good point ... Cheers. Yes. They bought in 20 years ago because it sold, and they sold out in the process. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 11, 2019 20:20:57 GMT -5
AS I read in a tweet, Cherry's rants often have a political slant to them. I think a lot of his views were political, not hockey ones. I still think he's suffering from dementia. It seems when some icon or person holding a lot of power has that condition, the wagons seem to circle and there's a ton of protecting and sheltering that goes on Ronald Reagan in his latter years in office, couldn't know even what day it was. But that was kept from everyone because. Why people can't simply be replaced in such situations is beyond me. I have a good friend who has early dementia and has had to leave his business. It involves advising people and you simply can't do that when your own judgment is skewed.
In any case, thank god. Perhaps I can now tune back into the first intermission after many years of switching away. Brian Burke might be a good choice for that time slot. "Armchair GM".
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 11, 2019 20:29:41 GMT -5
AS I read in a tweet, Cherry's rants often have a political slant to them. I think a lot of his views were political, not hockey ones. I still think he's suffering from dementia. It seems when some icon or person holding a lot of power has that condition, the wagons seem to circle and there's a ton of protecting and sheltering that goes on Ronald Reagan in his latter years in office, couldn't know even what day it was. But that was kept from everyone because. Why people can't simply be replaced in such situations is beyond me. I have a good friend who has early dementia and has had to leave his business. It involves advising people and you simply can't do that when your own judgment is skewed. In any case, thank god. Perhaps I can now tune back into the first intermission after many years of switching away. Brian Burke might be a good choice for that time slot. "Armchair GM". Too bad Scotty Bowman wasn't a bit younger |
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 11, 2019 20:30:44 GMT -5
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Post by blny on Nov 11, 2019 21:02:07 GMT -5
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Post by blny on Nov 11, 2019 21:04:35 GMT -5
AS I read in a tweet, Cherry's rants often have a political slant to them. I think a lot of his views were political, not hockey ones. I still think he's suffering from dementia. It seems when some icon or person holding a lot of power has that condition, the wagons seem to circle and there's a ton of protecting and sheltering that goes on Ronald Reagan in his latter years in office, couldn't know even what day it was. But that was kept from everyone because. Why people can't simply be replaced in such situations is beyond me. I have a good friend who has early dementia and has had to leave his business. It involves advising people and you simply can't do that when your own judgment is skewed. In any case, thank god. Perhaps I can now tune back into the first intermission after many years of switching away. Brian Burke might be a good choice for that time slot. "Armchair GM". Too bad Scotty Bowman wasn't a bit younger I'm trying to think of well-spoken guys who are involved in the game after retirement. Kevin Weekes comes to mind, but he was rather unceremoniously dumped from HNIC several years ago. He's done good work at the NHL Network. I think he'd be a good hire though, if they wanted to bring in someone with a modern knowledge of the game and is good in front of a camera. Call it "In the Crease". |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 11, 2019 21:20:17 GMT -5
2) "Freedom of speech" does not mean "Freedom from consequences". As a former harassment advisor, it was difficult making people understand this ... What about the naked tribesman ... on second thought, let's not go there ... |
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Post by franko on Nov 11, 2019 21:35:08 GMT -5
Now the cynic in me says that it's not because they're worried about a backlash over his words, but simply because they've been trying to cut costs for some time now, and this is a pretty good opportunity to fire a guy who makes quite a lot of money for doing very little work. SN was reputedly supposed to cut $12M last summer . . . this'll help. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 11, 2019 21:55:09 GMT -5
As a former harassment advisor, it was difficult making people understand this ... There's a job advising people how to harrass others? Where do I apply? |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 11, 2019 21:56:13 GMT -5
Now the cynic in me says that it's not because they're worried about a backlash over his words, but simply because they've been trying to cut costs for some time now, and this is a pretty good opportunity to fire a guy who makes quite a lot of money for doing very little work. SN was reputedly supposed to cut $12M last summer . . . this'll help. That'll probably solve the entire financial issue. |
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Post by CentreHice on Nov 11, 2019 22:01:31 GMT -5
I blame our national broadcaster's Leaf-centric coverage.
Cherry was always an unabashed Leafs' homer (whenever the Bruins weren't involved). After the Gilmour "kiss" in the '93 playoffs, Cherry was a "god" in Leaf Nation.
He loved the Leafs...so Leafs' fans loved him. "Coach's Corner" wasn't going anywhere.
I think that fan base overlooked Cherry's bigotry as "harmless" because Don cheered for their team. Confirmation bias. Without much public outcry for his removal, the broadcasters and MacLean were only too happy to continue to benefit from the Ron & Don shtick. I don't think the CBC, Sportsnet, or MacLean are bigoted....but they certainly looked the other way as long as such comments were considered "manageable"...i.e. not interfering with the bottom line.
I'm hoping that even Cherry's most ardent supporters will agree that he's gone too far this time. I'll be surprised, as well as disappointed, if there's a huge outcry to bring him back.
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Post by folatre on Nov 11, 2019 22:28:37 GMT -5
CH, I had not thought much about that angle. You may be on to something in terms of some Toronto fans being more inclined over the years to be (consciously or subconsciously) more forgiving of and indifferent to his rants and opinions because he always thoroughly enjoyed their team doing well.
For me Cherry was working on borrowed time, not because of his age, but rather because he was crossing the line over and over again with his overt expressions of ethnocentrism and very few people, fortunately, can get away with that type of conduct in the workplace. As BC said, freedom of speech is necessarily limited.
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 22:58:08 GMT -5
Some good comments there, particularly by Ling & Coren. |
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Post by franko on Nov 11, 2019 22:58:18 GMT -5
I'm hoping that even Cherry's most ardent supporters will agree that he's gone too far this time. I'll be surprised, as well as disappointed, if there's a huge outcry to bring him back. are you kidding me? there is a huge outcry . . . an online petition to bring him back . . . talks of boycotting (how will SN know if anyone is boycotting?). thems that love Cherry are all-in on him . . . conspiracy by leftwingers and the leftwing media to get rid of the one guy who stands up for "true Canadians". |
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Post by jkr on Nov 11, 2019 23:00:23 GMT -5
I blame our national broadcaster's Leaf-centric coverage. Cherry was always an unabashed Leafs' homer (whenever the Bruins weren't involved). After the Gilmour "kiss" in the '93 playoffs, Cherry was a "god" in Leaf Nation. He loved the Leafs...so Leafs' fans loved him. "Coach's Corner" wasn't going anywhere. I think that fan base overlooked Cherry's bigotry as "harmless" because Don cheered for their team. Confirmation bias. Without much public outcry for his removal, the broadcasters and MacLean were only too happy to continue to benefit from the Ron & Don shtick. I don't think the CBC, Sportsnet, or MacLean are bigoted....but they certainly looked the other way as long as such comments were considered "manageable"...i.e. not interfering with the bottom line. I'm hoping that even Cherry's most ardent supporters will agree that he's gone too far this time. I'll be surprised, as well as disappointed, if there's a huge outcry to bring him back. CBC pulled some of his "greatest hits" out. The most egregious was his comments about visors - according to Cherry they are only worn by "Europeans & French guys". That one should have gotten him fired. The guy must of thought he was bulletproof. |
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