Coronavirus.....

[Cranky]

Apr 17, 2020 15:27:12 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

Apr 17, 2020 15:14:50 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Of course this would be so much easier if we had an RFID tag implanted in us. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Or, you know, a phone.

Would you be surprised if I told you I have thick aluminum foil "bag" in my glove box inside the owners manual pouch? Takes no space at all and is easily accessible. Take a really, really wild guess why...

[jkr]

Interesting (& very disappointing) read about Dr. Tam:

calgaryherald.com/opinion/corbella-criticism-of-dr-tam-by-premier-kenney-good-medicine

[Cranky]

Nothing yo see here, move along...

The possible origins of 2019-nCoV coronavirus Botao Xiao1,2* and Lei Xiao3 1 Joint International Research Laboratory of Synthetic Biology and Medicine, School of Biology and Biological Engineering, South China University of Technology, Guangzhou 510006, China 2 School of Physics, Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Wuhan 430074, China 3 Tian You Hospital, Wuhan University of Science and Technology, Wuhan 430064, China * Corresponding author: [e-mail] Tel / Fax: [phone]


The 2019-nCoV coronavirus has caused an epidemic of 28,060 laboratory-confirmed infections in human including 564 deaths in China by February 6, 2020. Two descriptions of the virus published on Nature this week indicated that the genome sequences from patients were 96% or 89% identical to the Bat CoV ZC45 coronavirus originally found in Rhinolophus affinis 1,2. It was critical to study where the pathogen came from and how it passed onto human.

An article published on The Lancet reported that 41 people in Wuhan were found to have the acute respiratory syndrome and 27 of them had contact with Huanan Seafood Market 3. The 2019-nCoV was found in 33 out of 585 samples collected in the market after the outbreak. The market was suspicious to be the origin of the epidemic, and was shut down according to the rule of quarantine the source during an epidemic.

The bats carrying CoV ZC45 were originally found in Yunnan or Zhejiang province, both of which were more than 900 kilometers away from the seafood market. Bats were normally found to live in caves and trees. But the seafood market is in a densely-populated district of Wuhan, a metropolitan of ~15 million people. The probability was very low for the bats to fly to the market.

According to municipal reports and the testimonies of 31 residents and 28 visitors, the bat was never a food source in the city, and no bat was traded in the market. There was possible natural recombination or intermediate host of the coronavirus, yet little proof has been reported.

Was there any other possible pathway? We screened the area around the seafood market and identified two laboratories conducting research on bat coronavirus. Within ~280 meters from the market, there was the Wuhan Center for Disease Control & Prevention (WHCDC) (Figure 1, from Baidu and Google maps). WHCDC hosted animals in laboratories for research purpose, one of which was specialized in pathogens collection and identification 4-6. In one of their studies, 155 bats including Rhinolophus affinis were captured in Hubei province, and other 450 bats were captured in Zhejiang province 4. The expert in collection was noted in the Author Contributions (JHT). Moreover, he was broadcasted for collecting viruses on nation-wide newspapers and websites in 2017 and 2019 7,8. He described that he was once by attacked by bats and the blood of a bat shot on his skin. He knew the extreme danger of the infection so he quarantined himself for 14 days 7. In another accident, he quarantined himself again because bats peed on him. He was once thrilled for capturing a bat carrying a live tick 8. Surgery was performed on the caged animals and the tissue samples were collected for DNA and RNA extraction and sequencing 4, 5. The tissue samples and contaminated trashes were source of pathogens. They were only ~280 meters from the seafood market.

The WHCDC was also adjacent to the Union Hospital (Figure 1, bottom) where the first group of doctors were infected during this epidemic. It is plausible that the virus leaked around and some of them contaminated the initial patients in this epidemic, though solid proofs are needed in future study.

The second laboratory was ~12 kilometers from the seafood market and belonged to Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences 1, 9, 10. This laboratory reported that the Chinese horseshoe bats were natural reservoirs for the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) which caused the 2002-3 pandemic 9.

The principle investigator participated in a project which generated a chimeric virus using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system, and reported the potential for human emergence 10. A direct speculation was that SARS-CoV or its derivative might leak from the laboratory. In summary, somebody was entangled with the evolution of 2019-nCoV coronavirus.

In addition to origins of natural recombination and intermediate host, the killer coronavirus probably originated from a laboratory in Wuhan. Safety level may need to be reinforced in high risk biohazardous laboratories. Regulations may be taken to relocate these laboratories far away from city center and other densely populated places. Contributors BX designed the comment and performed literature search. All authors performed data acquisition and analysis, collected documents, draw the figure, and wrote the papers.

Acknowledgements This work is supported by the National Natural Science Foundation of China (11772133, 11372116).

Declaration of interests All authors declare no competing interests.

References 1. Zhou P, Yang X-L, Wang X-G, et al. A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin. Nature 2020. doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2012-7.

2. Wu F, Zhao S, Yu B, et al. A new coronavirus associated with human respiratory disease in China. Nature 2020. doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2008-3.

3. Huang C, Wang Y, Li X, et al. Clinical features of patients infected with 2019 novel coronavirus in Wuhan, China. The Lancet 2019. doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30183-5.

4. Guo WP, Lin XD, Wang W, et al. Phylogeny and origins of hantaviruses harbored by bats, insectivores, and rodents. PLoS pathogens 2013; 9(2): e1003159.

5. Lu M, Tian JH, Yu B, Guo WP, Holmes EC, Zhang YZ. Extensive diversity of rickettsiales bacteria in ticks from Wuhan, China. Ticks and tick-borne diseases 2017; 8(4): 574-80.

6. Shi M, Lin XD, Chen X, et al. The evolutionary history of vertebrate RNA viruses. Nature 2018; 556(7700): 197-202.

7. Tao P. Expert in Wuhan collected ten thousands animals: capture bats in mountain at night. Changjiang Times 2017.

8. Li QX, Zhanyao. Playing with elephant dung, fishing for sea bottom mud: the work that will change China's future. thepaper 2019.

9. Ge XY, Li JL, Yang XL, et al. Isolation and characterization of a bat SARS-like coronavirus that uses the ACE2 receptor. Nature 2013; 503(7477): 535-8.

10. Menachery VD, Yount BL, Jr., Debbink K, et al. A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence. Nature medicine 2015; 21(12): 1508-13.

[Cranky]

If there was any question from thd origins of ghe virus...

Long and boring, but no question where it came from and no reason to bring it in a lab in a city of 12 million. BIGGER then GTA.

www.nature.com/articles/nature12711

[Cranky]

Canada’s top doctor leading pandemic response also works for China-controlled World Health Organization


April 17, 2020 Canada’s chief public health officer, who has been called out for a lack of a proper response to the coronavirus epidemic, has direct ties to the World Health Organization (WHO).

Dr. Theresa Tam, who has served as Canada’s top health official since 2017, is one of seven people who sit on the Independent Oversight and Advisory Committee for the WHO Health Emergencies Programme (IOAC). This committee is mandated to evaluate “the performance of the key functions in health emergencies.”

The WHO’s credibility has been questioned in light of the coronavirus epidemic, and there is mounting evidence that it lacks integrity and is heavily influenced by the Chinese regime.

On February 3, asked if she thought Canada should stop the flow of travelers from China, Tam dismissed the idea as not necessary, saying a travel ban could “do more harm than good.” (on what fn planet does thus even make sense?)

Tam added that closing borders could “negatively affect a certain country that’s trying very hard to do its best, can impede whether this country in the future will ever share anything transparently with others ... I think the idea is to support China.”

It was not until mid-March that Canada officially closed its borders to non-citizens and permanent residents.

Because I don't believe anybody, I checked. Yup, she on the garbage WHO organization.

www.who.int/about/who_reform/emergency-capacities/oversight-committee/en/

[Cranky]

You got to be kidding me....

Health minister reviewing management of Canada's emergency stockpile


Experts criticize Ottawa for mismanaging and destroying millions of N95 masks

Health Minister Patty Hajdu says Canada will be reviewing how it manages its National Emergency Stockpile System following an investigation by CBC News.

CBC News reported Wednesday that last year, the government of Canada threw out two million N95 masks and 440,000 medical gloves when it shut down an emergency stockpile warehouse in Regina.

A spokesperson for the Public Health Agency of Canada, which oversees the stockpile, said in an email that the masks and gloves had been purchased in 2009 and "had passed the limit of five years for their use, as recommended by the manufacturer." The masks expired in 2014.

Critics have wondered why Ottawa let its stockpile of crucial medical equipment sit expired for five years. They also wonder why Ottawa doesn't have a plan to cycle supplies out of the stockpile before they expire so they can be put to use.

In a news conference Wednesday afternoon, Hajdu said she had read the story and she promised that the stockpile's processes will be reviewed.

"I'm certain, actually, there's opportunities to look at a process where that equipment is offered first of all to parts of Canada that may not have easy access to that equipment, and if not, then overseas to other countries that may need it." she said. "So we'll be reviewing that practice."

Medical supplies should never be tossed
Provincial governments and health-care workers are facing a severe shortage of N95 masks. For hospital workers in the COVID-19 pandemic, the N95 masks have become the health-care standard in personal protective equipment because they are designed to filter out tiny virus particles.

The National Emergency Strategic Stockpile (NESS), which is operated by the federal government, is a network of warehouses across the country that stores medical equipment and supplies. Provinces and territories can request use of these materials in the event of emergencies such as disease outbreaks.

Yet in Regina last spring, the federal government threw out the supplies, and instead of replenishing the warehouse, shut it down.


Joe Audette said he was shocked at how many medical gloves and N95 masks the federal government dumped in a Regina landfill last spring. (Joe Audette)
The destruction of the masks surprised some experts in emergency preparedness.

They say if the stockpile was managed properly, the supplies would have been distributed to the provincial health care system or other users before they expired.

INTERACTIVECoronavirus tracker: 30,000+ cases in Canada on Friday
"These kinds of masks and gloves should not have been winding up in a landfill," said Prof. John Lindsay, who teaches emergency and disaster management at Brandon University in Manitoba.

"They should have been winding up in somebody's hands who could use them properly."

'It's mismanagement'
Retired senator David Tkachuk, whose committee produced a report 12 years ago on the state of emergency preparedness in Canada, said Tuesday this revelation shows the Regina stockpile wasn't properly managed.

"It's not stockpile management at all; it's mismanagement," Tkachuk said from his home in Saskatoon.

Back in 2008, Tkachuk was the deputy chair of a Senate committee that concluded the then Conservative government had underfunded and mismanaged Canada's emergency response system. The report was provocatively entitled "Emergency preparedness in Canada: how the fine arts of bafflegab and procrastination hobble the people who will be trying to save you when things get really bad."

The former Conservative senator said it seems little has changed since the report, noting that the warehouse was not replenished with supplies but was instead shut down without explanation.


Provincial governments and health-care workers are facing a severe shortage of N95 masks. For hospital workers in the COVID-19 pandemic, N95s have become the health-care standard in personal protective equipment. (Nicholas Pfosi/Reuters)
"Lack of action had a terrible consequence," said Tkachuk who retired in February. "Because one, [the stockpile warehouse] wasn't replenished. it was closed. And two, none of it was used. So it was just purchased and thrown in the garbage dump."

"It's a disregard for the public purse, and someone has to be responsible for this."

A mountain of masks and gloves
None of this would have been made public, if it hadn't been for Joe Audette, who runs a dumpster bin company in Regina.

Audette told CBC that last May the NESS asked him to bid on a project that involved emptying the organization's Regina warehouse of "mostly gloves and light material."

A NESS employee asked specifically for Audette's largest dumpsters, "the 24-yard," and estimated that he would need about 40 of them for the job.


Retired Conservative Sen. David Tkachuk said Canada's National Emergency Stockpile System has been neglected by all political parties. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)
"That would have been the biggest order I'd ever seen. So that's why it's so memorable."

His company, Just Bins, didn't get the job.

But a few weeks later, he saw a competitor had delivered dozens of 30-yard bins — "which is just about the largest dumpster you can rent, filled to the brim, level load, with these boxes."

Canada building its own PPE network in China
He took a closer look at the growing mountain. It contained brown boxes full of disposable gloves and white boxes filled with N95 masks. Audette provided CBC with a picture of the boxes taken from the landfill.

At the time, Audette considered the whole thing wasteful, but he didn't give it more thought until Canada's health-care system, from coast to coast, started sounding the alarm about a shortage of N95 masks earlier this year.

That's what inspired him to reach out to CBC and tell his story.

Let's give Nero credit where credit is due. At least he played the fiddle.
- Senate report
"Such a shame," said Audette. "Those are literally rotting under dirt right now. I try not to think about it, because it's crazy."

He wonders if it all could have been put to a better use.

"As Canadians, we do a lot of foreign aid, and I think this would have been much better spent maybe in that direction than at a local landfill."


Joe Audette says the NESS was interested in renting 40 24-yard dumpsters. That dumpster, pictured here, is typically used for commercial or industrial projects. (Joe Audette)
Lindsay at Brandon University said the disposal of the masks and gloves shows Ottawa is mismanaging its stockpile of medical supplies.

In a responsibly managed stockpile, supplies would be sent into the provincial health-care system or to another agency that could make use of them. In fact, he said recently-expired masks could still be used, he said.

Prof. Jack Rozdilsky, an expert in disaster and emergency preparedness at York University in Toronto, agrees that Ottawa could do a better job managing this resource.

"I have a bread store and I have day-old bread, and I could either just throw it all out to the dumpster or I could have an employee that night bring it to the homeless shelter, and its still decent that night and someone could be fed from it," he said pointing out that Ottawa could consider taking that approach rather than throwing the supplies out.

CBC asked PHAC if the destroyed masks could have been donated to other places in the world. In its email reply, the federal health agency said it doesn't send expired equipment abroad.


Tkachuk said Canada has not disclosed what else it may have discarded from the Regina warehouse. He's also concerned that Ottawa may have closed some of the other seven warehouses located in major centres across Canada.

Rozdilsky said it may be difficult to get answers about the stockpile system.

He noted it was created in the 1950s and built up during the Cold War. For that reason, it has always been a state secret.

"We may not be able to ever find answers to your satisfaction, to my satisfaction, about what exists where and what numbers and how decisions were made," Rozdilsky said.

"Because many of these stockpiles and many of the decisions made around them exist under a veil of national security."

At a news conference on April 1, federal Health Minister Patty Hajdu admitted that Canada's stockpile was not prepared for this crisis.

"I think federal governments for decades have been underfunding things like public health preparedness, and I would say that obviously governments all across the world are in the same exact situation," Hajdu said.

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/experts-criticize-ottawa-for-destroying-millions-of-n95-masks-1.5530081

[jkr]

They used someone else's money (ours) to buy all those supplies so I guess they had no second thoughts about tossing it.

Don't find someone that can use it, just throw it away.

Cranky, I noticed the time stamp on your posts. Do you ever sleep?

[BadCompany]

With all the talk about re-opening the economy "because only old people are going to die" I think it's important to point out the real issue, which is the number of hospitalizations that this is causing. Of course I am not the first person to talk about this, but I do feel like the narrative is being lost.

CDC

If I'm interpreting the CDC's numbers right, a little over half the people who require hospitalization from this disease are people in the 18-65 range. Or, you know, your basic working population. They're not dying, but they are still very, very, sick. Too sick to work, and too sick to participate in the economy as anything other than medical patients.

Of course we don't have a very good grasp on what that means in terms of the total population, as we STILL don't really have a good grasp on how many people are being infected. But it is definitely something to consider when you hear people saying things like "protect the vulnerable send everybody else back to work".

[Cranky]

The virus has caused a big death....to stats.

We keep hearing all of of BS about testing, which is NOT happening. For all we know, the virus has infected 50% of the population and we are nearing heard immunity. Or 20% of the population and guarantee the second wave will be as bad as the first one.

Our little Santa can't spend money fast enough, but where we need it, on testing, to get a handle on re-opening the economy, he scurries back to his hole, figuring how to spend another billion or 50.

The priority right now is to keep the course on the most vulnerable and focus on the economy. We can only do that with blindness...because we are pretty blind on facts.

Another thing....cities need to be still on lockdown. Politics WILL come into play because no politician wants to open small town Ontario and Quebec while keeping Toronto and Montreal locked down. Particularly since those are traditional Liberal strongholds.

Nor will the Liberals look good if the West opens up while the east populations are still under house arrests.

Soooo.....expect lots of "concern" and non existing "scientific data" by our Santa about not opening up.....and unending billions somewhere to be spent..

[Cranky]

Apr 18, 2020 5:43:59 GMT -5 jkr said:

They used someone else's money (ours) to buy all those supplies so I guess they had no second thoughts about tossing it.

Don't find someone that can use it, just throw it away.

Cranky, I noticed the time stamp on your posts. Do you ever sleep?

The mask are still good and highly effective. There is absolutely no reason to throw them away unless they were in very damp storage.

Mask are made from non woven polypropylene. Properly stored, they don't degrade easily and certainly not in 5 years. In FACT, there should be more concern about lot to lot quality then 5 year storage "recommendation". I'm talking about 3M, who product I use to buy, never mind Chinese mask which are utterly unreliable.

Second thing, they could be rotated on an annual basis and 5 year supply held in stock.

BUT......politicians and burro'cracks are more interested in covering their butts then worry about our money.

.

Can't get rid of my 24/7 hour shift clock. For over 20 years, I came home at 6am, slept till noon and got back to work.

[seventeen]

Apr 23, 2020 21:40:37 GMT -5 Cranky said:

The virus has caused a big death....to stats.

We keep hearing all of of BS about testing, which is NOT happening. For all we know, the virus has infected 50% of the population and we are nearing heard immunity. Or 20% of the population and guarantee the second wave will be as bad as the first one.

Our little Santa can't spend money fast enough, but where we need it, on testing, to get a handle on re-opening the economy, he scurries back to his hole, figuring how to spend another billion or 50.

The priority right now is to keep the course on the most vulnerable and focus on the economy. We can only do that with blindness...because we are pretty blind on facts.

Another thing....cities need to be still on lockdown. Politics WILL come into play because no politician wants to open small town Ontario and Quebec while keeping Toronto and Montreal locked down. Particularly since those are traditional Liberal strongholds.

Nor will the Liberals look good if the West opens up while the east populations are still under house arrests.

Soooo.....expect lots of "concern" and non existing "scientific data" by our Santa about not opening up.....and unending billions somewhere to be spent..

In BC (the province, not the posting superhero), where I think a reasonable job is being done, the Health Officer is not big on testing. Main reason? She still hasn't found a test she likes. Their conclusion is that the current tests are turning out false positives and false negatives. If you can't trust the test, what's the point? We're mostly going low tech here. Stay at home, wash your hands often, stay six feet over rather than 6 feet under (my line, and I'm accepting royalties) and if you feel at all sick, go to the hospital.

Cases and death rates had plateaued, but now some greedy jerk who owns a chicken processing plant took no actions at all and it's spread there as well as in a few more nursing homes. It just confirms, you have to reduce crowding of any type. Don't let a small number of people start chain reactions. What was it in South Korea? One guy was responsible for half their cases.

Meanwhile, in the Stupid capital of the world

[Cranky]

BC wasn't testing likely cases so they don't even know how many were infected.

Here is my serious concern....

Right now, there is a high probability the housing market will collapse, needing hundreds and hundreds of billions to prop up. On top of the 200 billion already spent, on top of the losses from the annual 350 billion in tax revenues. On top of a collapsed oil industry.

We can be as righteous and altruistic andnclaim every life counts, which it does, but there has to be some cold hearted calculation that we can open up, mitigate as much as possible and accept some risk to salvage a damaged economy. It can be rebuilt or....play safe for a year, debt another trillion and come out to an economic holocaust.

Our GDP is 1.8 trillion, it can not be sustained or replaced by creating debt. The dollar itself will become trash and everybodies savings will follow. To say nothing about rampant inflation. Again, vaporizing savings and fixed incomes.

I wonder if Santa has any concept because I know one sad fact, the Ontario tax and spent gang was booted out of power and migrated to the Federal liberals. Their proud philosophy was that debt finiancing of programs is stealth wealth redistribution....and they got Santas ear. The problem with that philosophy assumes that economy is strong enough and someone else will pay for that up the food chain and down the line. Besides they reasoned, Ontario is too big to fail and federal government will bail us out.

That doesn't work if the entire chain collapses.

Even worse for us....Greece was small enough and got help from the EU. We are on our own.

Lastly....you know who suffered the most in the Greek economic debt crisis? The poor and the middle class. The 22% unemployment wasn't the politicians, the elite and the 1%.

[jkr]

Meanwhile, Trump is musing about using disinfectants as a treatment:

apnews.com/697d9ecef7f89cf5e9abb3b008c7faa7

[franko]

Apr 24, 2020 8:36:19 GMT -5 jkr said:

Meanwhile, Trump is musing about using disinfectants as a treatment:

apnews.com/697d9ecef7f89cf5e9abb3b008c7faa7

my mother used to wah my mouth out with soap and that didn't work; he thinks this will?

ah . . . the operative word: Trump thinks. there's an oxymoron if there ever was one!

[Cranky]

From the article...

“President Trump has repeatedly said that Americans should consult with medical doctors regarding coronavirus treatment, a point that he emphasized again during yesterday’s briefing,” White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said in a statement. “Leave it to the media to irresponsibly take President Trump out of context and run with negative headlines.”

Even dumber..."Trump was asked if it was dangerous to make people think they would be safe by going outside in the heat, considering that so many people have died in Florida."

That is a pure set up question by hostile media.

If that isn't a stupid and deliberate twist for the slow ones, I don't know what is. Trump said it was good for people to go outside and enjoy the sun...the propaganda media twisted that it was about heat and "so many people died in Florida". Connect any dot and it's good enough to get clicks.


The problem with a pinata is when it doesn't know it's not going to be anything but a pinata.

Trump should take a page from Santa. Come out, put on a sad face, ohhh and ahhh another billion or ten in spending, field a few softball questions, run back inside.

[jkr]

C'mon. It was a dumb thing to say. People are trying to walk it back now but everybody knows what they heard.

Aftervwhat happened with the Arizona couple that took the fish tank cleanser, he should realize that a lot of people will take three things seriously & give it some weight because he's president.

[Cranky]

The problem...you only heard a snippet and not the entire conversation. Nor the context.

[jkr]

I added to my post (probably after you replied) that many viewers will take a piece of what he said & give it more weight than it deserves. The president said....

He needs to get off the stage & let the doctors run the show. Otherwise he starts to go off message & starts talking about Lysol & UV light, chloroquine etc. It confuses the message.

IMO the experts seem too worried about contradicting him publicly.

[Cranky]

CTV news two nights ago....

"CONSERVATIVE MP made a racist remark about Dr Tam."

It was criticism about Tam following the WHO talking points, which she is part of. The snippet showed the MP asking "is she is working for Canada or China".

CTV news ignored the entire context of the remark and went straight for the RACIST attack. Showed nothing but that tiny clip as PROOF of racism.

The very same criticism and context by Jason Kenney wasn't touched a few nights earlier. Two nights later, in an isolated clip, the race card was played out in full.

I hate the media...with cause.

[franko]

Apr 24, 2020 13:51:01 GMT -5 Cranky said:

The problem...you only heard a snippet and not the entire conversation. Nor the context.

naw, I'm with jkr here. fact is, most people only hear snippets . . . the snippets they want to hear. and there are a lot of people pooh-poohing the medical community because they didn't have it right in the beginning and still are using "best case/worst case" in their explanations (so they don't know? why listen to them?).

Mr. Trump should at least suggest that the medical experts know something and let them speak for themselves, rather than letting them speak and then saying "what they mean is . . ."

[Cranky]

Apr 24, 2020 13:57:44 GMT -5 jkr said:

I added to my post (probably after you replied) that many viewers will take a piece of what he said & give it more weight than it deserves. The president said....

He needs to get off the stage & let the doctors run the show. Otherwise he starts to go off message & starts talking about Lysol & UV light, chloroquine etc. It confuses the message.

IMO the experts seem too worried about contradicting him publicly.

He should.

The biggest mistake of a non politician is to ignore how much twist a hostile media can inflict on any comment.

Do you know that Washington was tortured by the media? The media was more hostile AFTER he created a country then Trump has ever seen.

Did I mention I hate media?

[jkr]

The CBC talked about this on Sunday. They played Kenney's remarks & then went to the panel. Someone on the panel brought up the racism angle which I didn't see. Her job leaves her open to criticism & 2nd guessing. Nothing wrong with that.

[jkr]

Apr 24, 2020 14:05:52 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Apr 24, 2020 13:57:44 GMT -5 jkr said:

I added to my post (probably after you replied) that many viewers will take a piece of what he said & give it more weight than it deserves. The president said....

He needs to get off the stage & let the doctors run the show. Otherwise he starts to go off message & starts talking about Lysol & UV light, chloroquine etc. It confuses the message.

IMO the experts seem too worried about contradicting him publicly.

He should.

The biggest mistake of a non politician is to ignore how much twist a hostile media can inflict on any comment.

Do you know that Washington was tortured by the media? The media was more hostile AFTER he created a country then Trump has ever seen.

Did I mention I hate media?

But he also has a large media outlet on his side in Fox news. He gets criticized a lot but he also has his ardent defenders & he knows how to use them.

[Cranky]

Apr 24, 2020 14:06:44 GMT -5 jkr said:

The CBC talked about this on Sunday. They played Kenney's remarks & then went to the panel. Someone on the panel brought up the racism angle which I didn't see. Her job leaves her open to criticism & 2nd guessing. Nothing wrong with that.

You didn't see it because there wasn't any. It was based on Tam parroting the WHO line, which she is part of.

Two nights later, CTV made it about RACISM. Nothing but RACISM. Even had a 6 second clip as proof.

It's was pure media spin and bias. Intentional and outright.

[Cranky]

Just for the record....

What sets me off isn't Trump the Moron or Santa, it's the media itself. They are yielding enormous power and now more then ever, they are playing to confirmation bias and hatreds.

It serves them in selling their inherit bias AND generating looks to sell advertising. Meanwhile, they ARE fueling more and more division in our society.

I can't possibly come up with a better example then CTV playing defense for the Liberals by deliberatly spinning criticism of Tam as racism. Of course they are not THAT stupid they can't see the context, but niether context or reporting is the intent here. They deliberatly misrepresented it as racism because it will sell eyeballs to their particular viewers.

Does it cause division? Of course it does. The ones who critisize her for her actions aren't going to miss they are accused of racism. They will feel angry at that accusation. Why wouldn't they? But as far as CTV is concerned....who cares.

I do...and we all should. Whatever the politics.

[jkr]

When it comes to media stoking division, it doesnt get any clearer than the U.S.

CNN vs Fox News. There's not even a pretense of impartiality.

[Cranky]

Apr 24, 2020 16:55:29 GMT -5 jkr said:

When it comes to media stoking division, it doesn't get any clearer than the U.S.

CNN vs Fox News. There's not even a pretense of impartiality.

THAT is WHY i don't want to see it here.

The CBC is of course is immune to any criticism because it just eats from the tax trough. It can spin anything it wants with impunity.

The problem with Canada is that we don't have a third station that covers national news. So it's either the CBC and what use to be a fairly neutral CTV up to about 5 years ago. Everybody knows what to expect from the CBC, but CTV started losing viewers and deliberately stopped delivering straight news. Went straight into mixing some news with bias reporting and human interest. Human interest stories gets eyeballs and bias delivers more dedicated viewers. So the bottom line is more important then the actual news.

What is good for CTV bottom line is not good for the nation. The West is not going to miss how something like the Tam story was spun. Kenny criticized her and two days later, his criticism and whoever criticized her is deliberately sideswipe by phony cries of racism by the national TV media. What are those millions of people going to see? An eastern liberal centric media and "elite" trying to shut them down. Nothing less. Of course they will get angry...actually angrier. One side keeps dismissing it as "paranoia" while the other side sees this as absolute proof of how they are treated.

So this builds and when it surfaces with reactionary opinion and voting......lots of butt scratching and wondering....how did that happen?

Canada's divisions is nowhere near the US......but the main street media are either deliberately or from $elf intere$t, is goign to get us there.


(BTW...I never watch FOX. I actually don't even know if it's offered in the Rogers package.)

[Cranky]

A theory with one leg to stand on.....

I'm looking at the stats of various cities. One thing that stuck me is that Toronto, Montreal, New York and London have something in common. A subway.

There were lots of clips on the news of Londoners getting our of their packed "tubes". Same thing for New York. I can't help but think this has to be about the worse place to catch and spread the virus. City wide.

Before the shutdown, New York subway has 5.6 million riders a DAY, 24/7. That's from a population of 8.4 million. That would make 2.8 million out of 8.4 million or 33% of New Yorkers ride the subway. With THAT many potential victims and then carriers, is it any wonder that New York is a disaster area?

London also has the highest deaths in UK. 5 million riders a day in 9 million population. 27.7% riders overall.

Now...why hasn't Montreal and Toronto not gone the same route?

Toronto.....1.58 million per day in 2.93 million. Or about 26.7%

Montreal.....1.4 million per day in 1.78 million. Or about 39%

The ONLY way to explain the vast difference is the infection rate of the virus is saturation. If there is a high infection rate, "saturated", then it will only get immensely worse in an enclosed area. The R0 of the virus would go through the roof if there are infected riders shoulder to shoulder, breathing on each other. What I'm going to "guess" is that we didn't have the infection rate in our cities and took action BEFORE there was a saturation point of infected people. The difference may be only as little as a week, but given doubling every 3 days, that week represents 75% less infected people. If it's two weeks, 14 days, it doesn't sound like a lot of time, but in virus spread, that would be 97% less infected people.

Another thing.....we are talking about 3 days of doubling in the normal population. Throw that out the window if it's an enclosed area. More like doubling or WORSE by the day.....

So early action from Canada was what prevented the subway from becoming spread central. It may only have been a difference of several days, but given how fast this virus spread, that's more then enough to make a massive difference.

Which also means that we need to limit the subway use going forward.

[seventeen]

Apr 24, 2020 14:00:09 GMT -5 Cranky said:

CTV news two nights ago....

"CONSERVATIVE MP made a racist remark about Dr Tam."

It was criticism about Tam following the WHO talking points, which she is part of. The snippet showed the MP asking "is she is working for Canada or China".

CTV news ignored the entire context of the remark and went straight for the RACIST attack. Showed nothing but that tiny clip as PROOF of racism.

The very same criticism and context by Jason Kenney wasn't touched a few nights earlier. Two nights later, in an isolated clip, the race card was played out in full.

I hate the media...with cause.

It was a stupid criticim, put out there purely for the insatiable desire the Cons have to criticize EVERYTHING Trudeau does. I realize you don't like him either, but there has been enough dumb CPC criticism. You don't see the NDP or Greens or any other party making those comments and I doubt they agree with Trudeau either. Maybe it wasn't racist based, but she's a woman and clearly of Asian descent so one could easily jump to either the racist or misogynist camp.

It's also so, so easy to judge in hindsight. When guys say things like that I like to challenge them to say "what would you do right now, from here on forward? Let's hear what you think and then we'll come back to it in a few weeks or months time and pick you apart". They don't usually like to make their predictions for some reason. You make the best call with the info you have. Most governments across Canada have done fairly well, I think.

One can debate the deaths vs economics issue till the cows come home and I suspect anyone's individual beliefs will boil down to how much risk they're facing by the decisions made, both financially and healthwise. If you're hurting financially and aren't 80 years old with medical issues, you'll likely want to open the economy as soon as possible and vice versa.

I don't have an answer.

PS. Everyone should think critically about matters and what they read in the press or elsewhere. Some sources are more reputable than others, and some are just pathetic. Get different points of view but make up your own mind.

[seventeen]

Apr 24, 2020 18:26:55 GMT -5 Cranky said:

A theory with one leg to stand on.....

I'm looking at the stats of various cities. One thing that stuck me is that Toronto, Montreal, New York and London have something in common. A subway.

There were lots of clips on the news of Londoners getting our of their packed "tubes". Same thing for New York. I can't help but think this has to be about the worse place to catch and spread the virus. City wide.

Before the shutdown, New York subway has 5.6 million riders a DAY, 24/7. That's from a population of 8.4 million. That would make 2.8 million out of 8.4 million or 33% of New Yorkers ride the subway. With THAT many potential victims and then carriers, is it any wonder that New York is a disaster area?

London also has the highest deaths in UK. 5 million riders a day in 9 million population. 27.7% riders overall.

Now...why hasn't Montreal and Toronto not gone the same route?

Toronto.....1.58 million per day in 2.93 million. Or about 26.7%

Montreal.....1.4 million per day in 1.78 million. Or about 39%

The ONLY way to explain the vast difference is the infection rate of the virus is saturation. If there is a high infection rate, "saturated", then it will only get immensely worse in an enclosed area. The R0 of the virus would go through the roof if there are infected riders shoulder to shoulder, breathing on each other. What I'm going to "guess" is that we didn't have the infection rate in our cities and took action BEFORE there was a saturation point of infected people. The difference may be only as little as a week, but given doubling every 3 days, that week represents 75% less infected people. If it's two weeks, 14 days, it doesn't sound like a lot of time, but in virus spread, that would be 97% less infected people.

Another thing.....we are talking about 3 days of doubling in the normal population. Throw that out the window if it's an enclosed area. More like doubling or WORSE by the day.....

So early action from Canada was what prevented the subway from becoming spread central. It may only have been a difference of several days, but given how fast this virus spread, that's more then enough to make a massive difference.

Which also means that we need to limit the subway use going forward.

Good point. Moscow too has a well used subway, I believe. Any enclosed space, huh? Trouble is, I wouldn't trust any numbers coming out of Russia, so a comparison is challenging.