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Post by folatre on Sept 27, 2020 9:30:07 GMT -5
I would take a hard pass on Ryan. Not only is he slow, he is injury prone. Likewise, I have little to no interest in guys like Thompson, Simmonds, and Martin.
I actually hope that Bergevin does not load up on ageing fourth liners. I would prefer to poach guys like Fogele, Virtanen, or Lemieux, who are still young, established NHLers and may yet improve over time.
Montreal does not really have many wingers in the prospect pool who have the talent to play in the league. It would not be a bad idea this off-season, while a lot of clubs struggle with the cap crunch and outright cash stress, to grab a couple heavy wings with enough runway left in the career to help the Habs for 4-5 seasons.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 27, 2020 9:33:58 GMT -5
First thing I thought about when I saw the news that the Sens were buying him out. Oh boy, will Berg bite?
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 27, 2020 11:34:49 GMT -5
First thing I thought about when I saw the news that the Sens were buying him out. Oh boy, will Berg bite? I just couldn't shake the image of Zach Kasian from my head.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 27, 2020 14:06:49 GMT -5
First thing I thought about when I saw the news that the Sens were buying him out. Oh boy, will Berg bite? I just couldn't shake the image of Zach Kasian from my head. I don't understand Holland giving Kassian 4 years at $3.2MM per.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 27, 2020 16:28:56 GMT -5
I just couldn't shake the image of Zach Kasian from my head. I don't understand Holland giving Kassian 4 years at $3.2MM per. 2 words for you... Matthew Tkachuck
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Post by folatre on Sept 27, 2020 22:41:45 GMT -5
Yeah, that is basically it. Holland appreciated (arguably overappreciated) the take no prisoners deterrent sort of element that Kassian brought to the club. $3.2 million for another four years seems a little rich but I suppose if he can play to the level he did in 2019-20 (34 points in 59 games) or average 15 goals a season over the deal along with the 'heads up' seed that he plants in the mind of opponents, then it might not be all that bad.
I would imagine that Holland's more fervent wish would be to make 33 year old James Neal (with three years remaining at $5.75 per) disappear.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 27, 2020 22:56:33 GMT -5
Yeah, that is basically it. Holland appreciated (arguably overappreciated) the take no prisoners deterrent sort of element that Kassian brought to the club. $3.2 million for another four years seems a little rich but I suppose if he can play to the level he did in 2019-20 (34 points in 59 games) or average 15 goals a season over the deal along with the 'heads up' seed that he plants in the mind of opponents, then it might not be all that bad. I would imagine that Holland's more fervent wish would be to make 33 year old James Neal (with three years remaining at $5.75 per) disappear. Kassian is notoriously consistent.
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 28, 2020 9:40:41 GMT -5
Yeah, that is basically it. Holland appreciated (arguably overappreciated) the take no prisoners deterrent sort of element that Kassian brought to the club. $3.2 million for another four years seems a little rich but I suppose if he can play to the level he did in 2019-20 (34 points in 59 games) or average 15 goals a season over the deal along with the 'heads up' seed that he plants in the mind of opponents, then it might not be all that bad. I would imagine that Holland's more fervent wish would be to make 33 year old James Neal (with three years remaining at $5.75 per) disappear. Kassian is notoriously consistent. Zach's playing regularly with McD and Drasaitle and he only gets 34 points. And people wonder why Oilers with all the star power (2 Hart nominees including the winner) and they flame out every year.
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 28, 2020 10:42:03 GMT -5
I don't know how this offseason we don't go after Hall or Laine. I don't care about future costs. Let's put it into perspective. Are any of our current players going to be a top line player? If the answer is no, then you trade those players (or don't sign then) to make the numbers work in the future. if your name is Suzuki, K.K. or Romanov, you are disposable.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 28, 2020 11:59:29 GMT -5
I don't know how this offseason we don't go after Hall or Laine. I don't care about future costs. Let's put it into perspective. Are any of our current players going to be a top line player? If the answer is no, then you trade those players (or don't sign then) to make the numbers work in the future. if your name is Suzuki, K.K. or Romanov, you are disposable. I will be shocked if MB spends anymore of Geoffeys money...
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 28, 2020 12:09:44 GMT -5
I don't know how this offseason we don't go after Hall or Laine. I don't care about future costs. Let's put it into perspective. Are any of our current players going to be a top line player? If the answer is no, then you trade those players (or don't sign then) to make the numbers work in the future. if your name is Suzuki, K.K. or Romanov, you are disposable. If you are Winnipeg are you taking any offer from Montreal that doesn't include (at least) one of Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, or Romanov? I like to use the RFA compensation comparison when considering a trade proposal. I don't know if it's valid or not, but I like to use it. Which means that if you are going to try and obtain a young star player like Laine via an RFA offer it would cost you four first round picks. So if you're going to make a trade for the same player you have to offer up the equivalent of four first round picks. Which would be Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and since we don't have Sergachev anymore, let's say Suzuki. Obviously we're not doing that. So what could we offer Winnipeg that would make them give up a 22 year old, 30-45 goal scorer? Domi, Poehling and a 1st ain't gonna do it, in my opinion.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 28, 2020 12:19:51 GMT -5
So what could we offer Winnipeg that would make them give up a 22 year old, 30-45 goal scorer? Domi, Poehling and a 1st ain't gonna do it, in my opinion. It would have to include some D like Fleury, Mete or Ed as well as what you stated BC. Could send them Chiarot but I dont think that will happen... Don't think they want Webers cap hit.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 28, 2020 12:39:36 GMT -5
Kassian is notoriously consistent. Zach's playing regularly with McD and Drasaitle and he only gets 34 points. And people wonder why Oilers with all the star power (2 Hart nominees including the winner) and they flame out every year. I suspect this is more about keeping McDavid happy. Knowing he has muscle on a wing and it cuts down on people taking runs at him is worth something. Holland isn't a fool but having said that, he did put out some questionable contracts in Detroit. I have previously blamed the owner's desire to keep making the playoffs, but who knows?
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 28, 2020 12:42:34 GMT -5
So what could we offer Winnipeg that would make them give up a 22 year old, 30-45 goal scorer? Domi, Poehling and a 1st ain't gonna do it, in my opinion. It would have to include some D like Fleury, Mete or Ed as well as what you stated BC. Could send them Chiarot but I dont think that will happen... Don't think they want Webers cap hit. I think that if any team is giving up an actual superstar - especially one as young as Laine - that they are at the very least going to want a potential superstar in return. 16th overall is probably not going to be a superstar. Same can be said for Poehling, Mete, Fleury, and even Domi. So any deal for Laine will have to involve somebody who at the very least has the potential to be as good as Laine. Suzuki. Kotkaniemi. Maybe Caufield. Otherwise, as Doc Holiday used to say, you're just offering up a bunch of rowboats for a battleship. If I was Winnipeg's GM that's what I would be looking for anyways. Otherwise I just keep him.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 28, 2020 12:47:56 GMT -5
I don't know how this offseason we don't go after Hall or Laine. I don't care about future costs. Let's put it into perspective. Are any of our current players going to be a top line player? If the answer is no, then you trade those players (or don't sign then) to make the numbers work in the future. if your name is Suzuki, K.K. or Romanov, you are disposable. If you are Winnipeg are you taking any offer from Montreal that doesn't include (at least) one of Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, or Romanov? I like to use the RFA compensation comparison when considering a trade proposal. I don't know if it's valid or not, but I like to use it. Which means that if you are going to try and obtain a young star player like Laine via an RFA offer it would cost you four first round picks. So if you're going to make a trade for the same player you have to offer up the equivalent of four first round picks. Which would be Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and since we don't have Sergachev anymore, let's say Suzuki. Obviously we're not doing that. So what could we offer Winnipeg that would make them give up a 22 year old, 30-45 goal scorer? Domi, Poehling and a 1st ain't gonna do it, in my opinion. On a Twitter discussion about the same thing, I pointed out that in any trade, if your gut isn't wrenching and you're not seriously questioning if you're doing the right thing, you're not offering enough. Delivering up players you can fairly easily get along without is not going to cut it. BC is absolutely correct. One of Suzuki, KK or Romanov would have to be included and that hurts, right? My thought, if it's an offer sheet for Laine, is to offer up the four 1st round picks. You can start the pick choices next year. This Habs team, with Laine and the kids coming (despite a pedestrian defense group for now) is going to make the playoffs. That means those picks are 16 or worse. I do that every day for a difference maker. You might even go to Chevy ahead of time with that offer, or with 3 first round picks and Domi.
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 28, 2020 13:35:49 GMT -5
Laine is very good but he isn't superstar great (Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, Mackinnon, level). My offer is Caulfield, Domi or Danualt, Any defenceman prospect (except Romanov) or current defenceman, and this years first.
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Post by PTH on Sept 28, 2020 15:06:03 GMT -5
... If I was Winnipeg's GM that's what I would be looking for anyways. Otherwise I just keep him. Though, if a guy his age is on the market (reportedly), it's because the GM isn't convinced he's worth the 10+ million he'll get for a max-length contract... So a very good offer might be enough to sway them, assuming they like what the guys we're offering have to offer. That's always the tough thing about figuring out values: if the other guy really values a player differently than we do, it can lead to strange valuations. Just think about Domi for Galchenyuk: a lot of people were wondering what we were doing getting a 9 goal scorer, but right now we're looking at what we can get for Domi (and there seem to be some interesting offers floating around) whereas Galch is apparently not going to get qualified...
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 28, 2020 17:32:41 GMT -5
I think Laine will be the difinitions of....be careful what you wish for.
I'm not convinced Laine is the 11 millo9n dollar superstar that takes a team on his shoulder. Yes he's a great sniper that will get a ton of points, but I doubt he will stand a bit of blood on his shirt.
You want to roll the big dollar dice...roll it on Dubois. 10-11 million for 7, front loaded.
Even if Dubois is a 70-80 point center, he's more valuable then a 90-100 point winger.
As for Sergachev not signing because of ill feelings, does anyone actually have proof of this? There was no prolonged history to form any animosity. He played 4 games for the Habs that's it. I doubt he formed a life long opinion....in 4 games.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 28, 2020 17:39:01 GMT -5
It would have to include some D like Fleury, Mete or Ed as well as what you stated BC. Could send them Chiarot but I dont think that will happen... Don't think they want Webers cap hit. I think that if any team is giving up an actual superstar - especially one as young as Laine - that they are at the very least going to want a potential superstar in return. 16th overall is probably not going to be a superstar. Same can be said for Poehling, Mete, Fleury, and even Domi. So any deal for Laine will have to involve somebody who at the very least has the potential to be as good as Laine. Suzuki. Kotkaniemi. Maybe Caufield. Otherwise, as Doc Holiday used to say, you're just offering up a bunch of rowboats for a battleship. If I was Winnipeg's GM that's what I would be looking for anyways. Otherwise I just keep him. I won't argue the premise of the post, I will argue that no GM will put a "superstar" player on the market without cause. The cause here is going to be that Laine will demand and get, Matthew's money. Why not ask for the moon? It's not like Laine has been shown any loyalty when he's openly marketed like a piece of Kobe beef. Is he worth 10-11 million a year in your books? Not in my books. Lastly....I would not trade our core 3 for Laine. Nor build around him.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 28, 2020 20:13:13 GMT -5
I don't know how this offseason we don't go after Hall or Laine. I don't care about future costs. Let's put it into perspective. Are any of our current players going to be a top line player? If the answer is no, then you trade those players (or don't sign then) to make the numbers work in the future. if your name is Suzuki, K.K. or Romanov, you are disposable. If you are Winnipeg are you taking any offer from Montreal that doesn't include (at least) one of Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, or Romanov? I like to use the RFA compensation comparison when considering a trade proposal. I don't know if it's valid or not, but I like to use it. Which means that if you are going to try and obtain a young star player like Laine via an RFA offer it would cost you four first round picks. So if you're going to make a trade for the same player you have to offer up the equivalent of four first round picks. Which would be Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and since we don't have Sergachev anymore, let's say Suzuki. Obviously we're not doing that. So what could we offer Winnipeg that would make them give up a 22 year old, 30-45 goal scorer? Domi, Poehling and a 1st ain't gonna do it, in my opinion. Domi , Poehling and a first is THREE first rounders, you said gonna take 4 ... just saying
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Post by folatre on Sept 28, 2020 21:22:40 GMT -5
Cheveldayoff could be asking the sun, the moon, and the stars because he is not really all that up against it at this point. Dreger says he is all in on trading Laine. But the clock is not really ticking loudly so why should Cheveldayoff move much anytime soon off an outrageous ask?
I do not believe Bergevin is highly interested in Laine, though for me he should be; but if he were highly interested, the offer would need to be a second line centre (Domi), an A level prospect who also happens to be a right-handed shot with crazy potential to fill the net on power plays (Caufield), a first round pick, and the Jets' choice of Kulak or Mete or Juulsen or Fleury or Brook.
Is that the equivalent of four first rounders? Maybe, maybe not, depending on how you evaluate things. But the Jets would definitely be getting more than four magic beans because at the very least Domi is a proven, skilled NHL forward who will produce 50-60 points.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 28, 2020 22:21:03 GMT -5
Yes that is reasonable. Chevy might want an additional 2nd rounder but that’s not a deal breaker. Caufield hurts. Domi hurts a bit. It would make Chevy think.
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Post by UberCranky on Sept 28, 2020 23:49:57 GMT -5
I wonder...if you are for the trade for Laine, are you comfortable with a 10-11 million hit?
Do you think he's in the same mold as Dubois and Eichel?
Last but not least...WHY is he so openly on the trading block? Has Stamkos or Ovechkin have ever been openly and seriously available?
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Post by franko on Sept 29, 2020 6:10:39 GMT -5
I wonder...if you are for the trade for Laine, are you comfortable with a 10-11 million hit? Do you think he's in the same mold as Dubois and Eichel? Last but not least...WHY is he so openly on the trading block? Has Stamkos or Ovechkin have ever been openly and seriously available? and the rumors have started about Eichel being on the block too.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 29, 2020 8:02:37 GMT -5
Cheveldayoff could be asking the sun, the moon, and the stars because he is not really all that up against it at this point. Dreger says he is all in on trading Laine. But the clock is not really ticking loudly so why should Cheveldayoff move much anytime soon off an outrageous ask? I do not believe Bergevin is highly interested in Laine, though for me he should be; but if he were highly interested, the offer would need to be a second line centre (Domi), an A level prospect who also happens to be a right-handed shot with crazy potential to fill the net on power plays (Caufield), a first round pick, and the Jets' choice of Kulak or Mete or Juulsen or Fleury or Brook. Is that the equivalent of four first rounders? Maybe, maybe not, depending on how you evaluate things. But the Jets would definitely be getting more than four magic beans because at the very least Domi is a proven, skilled NHL forward who will produce 50-60 points. That's too much for me. I am not as high on Laine as most. He seemed dis interested last year. Then He is generally a negative player despite scoring a lot of goals. I would offer Domi, a 2nd and Mete.
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Post by folatre on Sept 29, 2020 9:12:41 GMT -5
Hockey is debatable. But I am not convinced that Domi, a second rounder, and Mete would land Ehlers let alone Laine.
If Bergevin believes that Price and Weber are truly elite difference makers, then he should jump at the opportunity to trade Domi, Caufield, a first, and their pick of a d-man (Kulak, Mete, Juulsen, Fleury, Brook). I mean, Montreal would only be subtracting one important roster piece (Domi) in exchange for an elite sniper (Laine). Laine is a .45 goals per game guy. Even his playoff productivity is considerably better than any winger on the Habs.
My suspicion is that, in his heart of hearts, Bergevin knows that Price and Weber are not truly elite difference makers anymore because of the hard miles on their bodies and therefore he wants to simultaneously play the short game (be good enough to fight for the playoffs) and the long game (avoid trading prospects and first round picks).
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 29, 2020 9:41:35 GMT -5
Domi , Poehling and a first is THREE first rounders, you said gonna take 4 ... just saying Yep. So we'd have to add another first rounder. Domi, Poehling, and two first rounders for Laine. An offer that probably gets us in the door. But I don't like adding firsts in future years, because those could be lottery picks (Price gets injured, Laine gets injured, sophomore slump for Suzuki, etc). We've seen it happen a few times already, and if I was a betting man I'd give it decent odds it happens again with Pittsburgh next year. So I don't want to give up a 2021 pick, just in case. Which means we'd have to give up a player like Suzuki, Kotkaniemi, or Caufield. Non-starter for me. And of course this assumes that Winnipeg likes our package. Maybe they don't view Poehling as worthy of a 1st rounder anymore. Maybe they don't think they can sign Domi before he hits UFA. Maybe they just really want Suzuki. Takes two to tango, and all that.
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Post by BadCompany on Sept 29, 2020 9:52:52 GMT -5
Any love for Phil the Thrill?
Kessel slumped horribly last year, but Arizona was and is a dumpster fire. He's one season removed from 82 points, two seasons away from 92, albeit both were with Pittsburgh on Malkin's wing. Julien will hate him, half the fan base will hate him, and maybe half his teammates will hate him as well. But he's also a proven right-wing goal scorer/shooter, which is something we desperately need. We have the playmaking centers to get him the puck, and even last year he was still good on the power-play. Arizona is in desperate need of picks, and their cap situation isn't great. We can't take on Kessel's full $6.8 million cap hit (I'm assuming we resign Domi at the same time), but we can take on some. Say we send Alzner back, along with a couple of picks (2nd and a 3rd maybe?). That would save Arizona a couple of million, they'd get a couple of picks, and we'd get a potential 30 goal scorer, albeit as a reclamation project. Both Alzner and Kessel have two years left on their respective deals. While it's unclear what exactly makes Kessel tick, perhaps the opportunity to stick it to Toronto and Boston will motivate him? How would he look on a line with Domi and Kotkaniemi?
Worthy gamble? Folly? Excellent idea?
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Post by CentreHice on Sept 29, 2020 10:03:15 GMT -5
Kessel gave some members of the Toronto sports' media both barrels near the end.
While the money/term might be exactly what he wants, I doubt he'd want the "difference-maker" expectation in Montreal's PRESSure cooker.
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Post by franko on Sept 29, 2020 10:08:21 GMT -5
Kessel, 2 years left . . . will he have anything in the tank? isn't that already a concern here? I can see it now . . . he doesn't return to older numbers and we'll be looking for MB's head on a pike again. or still
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