Eichel

[folatre]

For sure, Cranky, the risk is notable. But risk is a two-way street and Buffalo today cannot get the same haul for Eichel that they could have had they traded him 12 months ago.

Hockey is debatable, but I see the Sabres getting one exceptional young piece off an NHL roster, one "can't miss" prospect, a first rounder, and some other piece.

[frozone]

May 11, 2021 17:55:12 GMT -5 folatre said:

Eichel is from Boston, no? He was a Habs fan?

Anyway, technically, the Sabres do not have to do the kid any favors. His NMC does not kick in until July 1, 2022 so they can tell him to pack his bags to Ottawa or wherever and there is not much he can do.

Assuming Eichel recovers and the doctors of the club acquiring him verify this, it would take a big haul to land him. He is definitely a top 15 centre in the league, perhaps even top 10. And even though the cap hit is pricey, you are buying cost certainty for five prime years (age 25-29).

It has to start with a centre (either Suzuki or Kotkaniemi) and as you guys said if the idea is to move Kotkaniemi then the other pieces are going to have to be really nice. Maybe something like Kotkaniemi, Guhle, a first, a third, and Byron (as a salary dump to help absorb Eichel's big AAV). Suzuki is easier to project from their standpoint, so if he were the centre on the move then the other pieces could be more modest.

Yessir, definitely a Habs fan. I remember seeing it in a pre-draft interview. Iirc his entire family are big supporters. Can't find that interview, but here's a more recent bit of evidence:

PLAYER Q&A | JACK EICHEL

As for the the rest of your post, I suspect Suzuki would be the ask at C in all likelihood. KK still has the higher ceiling, but imo he has more to prove, which would be an important factor in a deal already heavy on unproven pieces.

[Willie Dog]

May 12, 2021 11:23:36 GMT -5 frozone said:

May 11, 2021 17:55:12 GMT -5 folatre said:

Eichel is from Boston, no? He was a Habs fan?

Anyway, technically, the Sabres do not have to do the kid any favors. His NMC does not kick in until July 1, 2022 so they can tell him to pack his bags to Ottawa or wherever and there is not much he can do.

Assuming Eichel recovers and the doctors of the club acquiring him verify this, it would take a big haul to land him. He is definitely a top 15 centre in the league, perhaps even top 10. And even though the cap hit is pricey, you are buying cost certainty for five prime years (age 25-29).

It has to start with a centre (either Suzuki or Kotkaniemi) and as you guys said if the idea is to move Kotkaniemi then the other pieces are going to have to be really nice. Maybe something like Kotkaniemi, Guhle, a first, a third, and Byron (as a salary dump to help absorb Eichel's big AAV). Suzuki is easier to project from their standpoint, so if he were the centre on the move then the other pieces could be more modest.

Yessir, definitely a Habs fan. I remember seeing it in a pre-draft interview. Iirc his entire family are big supporters. Can't find that interview, but here's a more recent bit of evidence:

PLAYER Q&A | JACK EICHEL

As for the the rest of your post, I suspect Suzuki would be the ask at C in all likelihood. KK still has the higher ceiling, but imo he has more to prove, which would be an important factor in a deal already heavy on unproven pieces.

I like Suze a lot, but Eichels don't come along very often, and he grew up a habs fan!

C'mon, if this is doable and it doesn't decimate the prospect pool, then fine... If Berg hadn't lost Juulsen and Mete on waivers, one of them could have been part of a package, good young D are a valuable commodity as well.

[Boston_Habs]

It's funny reading that the Rangers are the front runners to get Eichel, but sending Lafreniere or Kaapo Kakko are non starters. Buffalo is going to want a potential cornerstone piece in return so the question it's not so much who has the best prospect, but who is willing to give up their best prospects?

Lafreniere may have more upside than Suzuki or KK, but if the Rags aren't willing to give up Lafreniere and we're willing to give up Suzuki or KK... I guess the rub would be if Buffalo insisted on Caufield, but even then I'd probably do it.

There really isn't a Habs player or prospect I wouldn't move in a deal for Eichel. Plus Buffalo would need to take some cap/salary to make the money work and we have the ideal player in Shea Weber - a guy with a $7.8 million cap hit but a low actual salary. It's PERFECT for Buffalo and they get a veteran pro to help turn around the culture.

Shea Weber, Suzuki or KK, Guhle and/or a 1st for Eichel. That's a pretty darn good package and it's almost an even swap of cap hit.

The question is how competitive are we willing to be? Is Bergevin even considering it?

[GNick99]

May 13, 2021 9:19:47 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

It's funny reading that the Rangers are the front runners to get Eichel, but sending Lafreniere or Kaapo Kakko are non starters. Buffalo is going to want a potential cornerstone piece in return so the question it's not so much who has the best prospect, but who is willing to give up their best prospects?

Lafreniere may have more upside than Suzuki or KK, but if the Rags aren't willing to give up Lafreniere and we're willing to give up Suzuki or KK... I guess the rub would be if Buffalo insisted on Caufield, but even then I'd probably do it.

There really isn't a Habs player or prospect I wouldn't move in a deal for Eichel. Plus Buffalo would need to take some cap/salary to make the money work and we have the ideal player in Shea Weber - a guy with a $7.8 million cap hit but a low actual salary. It's PERFECT for Buffalo and they get a veteran pro to help turn around the culture.

Shea Weber, Suzuki or KK, Guhle and/or a 1st for Eichel. That's a pretty darn good package and it's almost an even swap of cap hit.

The question is how competitive are we willing to be? Is Bergevin even considering it?

I would offer package around KK. KK our first pick and top prospect like Primeau. But no more. Eichel still 10 million a year which brings a lot in UFA.

KK reminds me of Brian Savage. Very streaky. When he is on he is good but look out when he is not. Gets knocked off the puck like Savage also.

[Willie Dog]

May 15, 2021 16:08:30 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

May 13, 2021 9:19:47 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

It's funny reading that the Rangers are the front runners to get Eichel, but sending Lafreniere or Kaapo Kakko are non starters. Buffalo is going to want a potential cornerstone piece in return so the question it's not so much who has the best prospect, but who is willing to give up their best prospects?

Lafreniere may have more upside than Suzuki or KK, but if the Rags aren't willing to give up Lafreniere and we're willing to give up Suzuki or KK... I guess the rub would be if Buffalo insisted on Caufield, but even then I'd probably do it.

There really isn't a Habs player or prospect I wouldn't move in a deal for Eichel. Plus Buffalo would need to take some cap/salary to make the money work and we have the ideal player in Shea Weber - a guy with a $7.8 million cap hit but a low actual salary. It's PERFECT for Buffalo and they get a veteran pro to help turn around the culture.

Shea Weber, Suzuki or KK, Guhle and/or a 1st for Eichel. That's a pretty darn good package and it's almost an even swap of cap hit.

The question is how competitive are we willing to be? Is Bergevin even considering it?

I would offer package around KK. KK our first pick and top prospect like Primeau. But no more. Eichel still 10 million a year which brings a lot in UFA.

KK reminds me of Brian Savage. Very streaky. When he is on he is good but look out when he is not. Gets knocked off the puck like Savage also.

So you basically say KK is not very good but expect the Sabres to take him, an unproven goalie and a mid round first for a franchise type centre...

If the Sabres took that deal then it means KK has more value than the habs think... why not substitute Danault... he's supposedly a 1st line centre and should sweeten the deal more than Jesperi Savage...

[GNick99]

May 16, 2021 8:32:20 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

May 15, 2021 16:08:30 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

I would offer package around KK. KK our first pick and top prospect like Primeau. But no more. Eichel still 10 million a year which brings a lot in UFA.

KK reminds me of Brian Savage. Very streaky. When he is on he is good but look out when he is not. Gets knocked off the puck like Savage also.

So you basically say KK is not very good but expect the Sabres to take him, an unproven goalie and a mid round first for a franchise type centre...

If the Sabres took that deal then it means KK has more value than the habs think... why not substitute Danault... he's supposedly a 1st line centre and should sweeten the deal more than Jesperi Savage...

All I would go. 10 million also remember? Bring a couple of Toffoli in UFA plus keep the farm.

[Willie Dog]

May 18, 2021 7:18:35 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

May 16, 2021 8:32:20 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

So you basically say KK is not very good but expect the Sabres to take him, an unproven goalie and a mid round first for a franchise type centre...

If the Sabres took that deal then it means KK has more value than the habs think... why not substitute Danault... he's supposedly a 1st line centre and should sweeten the deal more than Jesperi Savage...

All I would go. 10 million also remember? Bring a couple of Toffoli in UFA plus keep the farm.

Toffoli was a consequence of Covid and the player wanting to play in a hockey market (Toronto didn't have the space). The 4 X 4.25 for a player of his pedigree will not happen anytime soon.

[folatre]

The economic landscape has not really changed. Most teams are still jammed up against the flat cap ceiling, so with the exception of truly elite guys most 2021 UFAs are going to get squeezed just as hard as the class of 2020 did. So there will be plenty of value pickups to be had and smart GMs should not overpay for good hockey players in the market.

However, having said that, at some point picking up an elite talent at $10 million per will likely move the needle more than three guys at $3 million per. In other words, adding more complementary pieces to a roster that lacks difference makers might sound good in theory, 'hey we will overwhelm everyone with our depth,' but I think we have seen how that works.

The fundamental problem with the Habs roster is that the guys carrying elite cap hits are not even close to be being elite players.

[seventeen]

Sure seeing a lot of "Holy Smokes...watching the other divisions really shows how far behind we are".

Yep.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 13, 2021 9:19:47 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

The question is how competitive are we willing to be? Is Bergevin even considering it?

The first trade Serge Savard made was to get Bobby Smith in Montreal ... Savard wanted that one, big, number-1 centre, and he went out and got him ... Montreal gave up Keith Acton, Mark Napier, and a 3rd to land Smith, and he was a huge part of the '86 Cup run ... Marc Bergevin has already proven that he'll pull off a big deal (see PK Subban and Max Pacioretty) ... I don't know if he'll go after Jack Eichel, but he has the assets to do it ... not sure what the asking price would be, but what would the equivalent of Acton and Napier be ... not sure what package I'd offer up ... the cap makes things complicated ...

Cheers.

[GNick99]

May 18, 2021 7:24:01 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

May 18, 2021 7:18:35 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

All I would go. 10 million also remember? Bring a couple of Toffoli in UFA plus keep the farm.

Toffoli was a consequence of Covid and the player wanting to play in a hockey market (Toronto didn't have the space). The 4 X 4.25 for a player of his pedigree will not happen anytime soon.

Cap flat this year also. Be deals out there. Many teams looking to move money.

[Willie Dog]

May 19, 2021 0:30:01 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

May 18, 2021 7:24:01 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

Toffoli was a consequence of Covid and the player wanting to play in a hockey market (Toronto didn't have the space). The 4 X 4.25 for a player of his pedigree will not happen anytime soon.

Cap flat this year also. Be deals out there. Many teams looking to move money.

If we can clear some cap space and we can get another toffoli, that would be great, but the Toffoli precedent means more teams will be bidding on these type of players... I mean what team wouldn't pay 4.25 for a Toffoli?

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 19, 2021 9:06:02 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

May 19, 2021 0:30:01 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Cap flat this year also. Be deals out there. Many teams looking to move money.

If we can clear some cap space and we can get another toffoli, that would be great, but the Toffoli precedent means more teams will be bidding on these type of players... I mean what team wouldn't pay 4.25 for a Toffoli?

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but does anyone see a bit of Tyler Toffoli in Jesse Ylönen ... just putting it out there ...

Cheers.

[Willie Dog]

May 19, 2021 12:59:52 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

May 19, 2021 9:06:02 GMT -5 Willie Dog said:

If we can clear some cap space and we can get another toffoli, that would be great, but the Toffoli precedent means more teams will be bidding on these type of players... I mean what team wouldn't pay 4.25 for a Toffoli?

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but does anyone see a bit of Tyler Toffoli in Jesse Ylönen ... just putting it out there ...

Cheers.

I havent watched Ylonen but if so that would be great.

[Cranky]

May 18, 2021 22:15:27 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

May 13, 2021 9:19:47 GMT -5 Boston_Habs said:

The question is how competitive are we willing to be? Is Bergevin even considering it?

The first trade Serge Savard made was to get Bobby Smith in Montreal ... Savard wanted that one, big, number-1 centre, and he went out and got him ... Montreal gave up Keith Acton, Mark Napier, and a 3rd to land Smith, and he was a huge part of the '86 Cup run ... Marc Bergevin has already proven that he'll pull off a big deal (see PK Subban and Max Pacioretty) ... I don't know if he'll go after Jack Eichel, but he has the assets to do it ... not sure what the asking price would be, but what would the equivalent of Acton and Napier be ... not sure what package I'd offer up ... the cap makes things complicated ...

Cheers.

Bobby Smith along with Nilan, Chelios, Carbo, Lemeaux, Corson, Robinson, Svoboda, etc had a lot of players with bad hair days. Through those years, the entire line-up was filled with guys that were tough as nails.

We could use a few now....like a 20 goal Nilan..

[Willie Dog]

And guys with bad attitudes like Corson, Chelios and McPhee

[Disgruntled70sHab]

May 19, 2021 17:25:23 GMT -5 Cranky said:

Bobby Smith along with Nilan, Chelios, Carbo, Lemeaux, Corson, Robinson, Svoboda, etc had a lot of players with bad hair days. Through those years, the entire line-up was filled with guys that were tough as nails.

I watched the Habs draft and produce Petr Svoboda at the draft from a farm house in Springfield West, PEI ... here's Svoboda against Ken Linesman ... this one was personal ...

[We could use a few now....like a 20 goal Nilan..

They don't make them like Chris Nilan any more ... they guy could stand with anyone in the league, but he could play hockey, too ... here's the quintessential Knuckles Nilan ... great story about how he met Guy Lafleur, Jacques Lemaire, Gille Lupien, et al ... "I told you I'd be here" ... 

[Willie Dog]

Great stuff, I read about Knuckles meeting the Habs players in Boston but I forgot about Svoboda and the rat

[GNick99]

10 million big cap hit to take on. Has to be salary going back.

But any playoff team cleans out farm system and bunch of picks next 2 drafts should add 2 or 3 top players. Cup contender be among best teams in league. Only last 2 or 3 years as team be older

[GNick99]

Should start a poll: would you clean out our farm and give up a first for Eichel?

[Skilly]

May 21, 2021 9:20:40 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Should start a poll: would you clean out our farm and give up a first for Eichel?

Not a lot on the farm … the good ones are already playing in the NHL.

But yep … I’d give up 3 firsts for Eichel and the farm

[folatre]

I would too. But Pegula and Adams are not accepting that. They have to get a young centre who currently plays in the NHL and is basically a can't miss top six player. That is going to be the main piece. The other pieces are probably more flexible.

[GNick99]

Jun 13, 2021 18:48:19 GMT -5 folatre said:

I would too. But Pegula and Adams are not accepting that. They have to get a young centre who currently plays in the NHL and is basically a can't miss top six player. That is going to be the main piece. The other pieces are probably more flexible.

Sounds like KK

[GNick99]

Friedman reporting Kings out on Eichel. Lowering his trade value

[seventeen]

Jun 14, 2021 4:51:18 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Jun 13, 2021 18:48:19 GMT -5 folatre said:

I would too. But Pegula and Adams are not accepting that. They have to get a young centre who currently plays in the NHL and is basically a can't miss top six player. That is going to be the main piece. The other pieces are probably more flexible.

Sounds like KK

Sounds more like Suzuki and KK.

[GNick99]

Jun 13, 2021 18:48:19 GMT -5 folatre said:

I would too. But Pegula and Adams are not accepting that. They have to get a young centre who currently plays in the NHL and is basically a can't miss top six player. That is going to be the main piece. The other pieces are probably more flexible.

KK, Anderson and our 1st? I wouldn't go that high. Quite a risk with Eichel. He comes with baggage and major injury.

[Skilly]

Eichel is a huge Habs fan and wears #9 in honour of Maurice Richard ... a guy can dream ....

[folatre]

Jun 18, 2021 6:24:05 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

Jun 13, 2021 18:48:19 GMT -5 folatre said:

I would too. But Pegula and Adams are not accepting that. They have to get a young centre who currently plays in the NHL and is basically a can't miss top six player. That is going to be the main piece. The other pieces are probably more flexible.

KK, Anderson and our 1st? I wouldn't go that high. Quite a risk with Eichel. He comes with baggage and major injury.

I hear you. I never said Anderson. He is a big roster piece. A team trying to win the Cup cannot subtract more than one very good roster piece in order to add an elite one.

It would have to be something like Kotkaniemi, a first, a d-prospect of their choice not named Romanov, a B-prospect (Vejdemo or Hillis), and cap dump (Byron).

[GNick99]

Jun 18, 2021 21:09:28 GMT -5 folatre said:

Jun 18, 2021 6:24:05 GMT -5 GNick99 said:

KK, Anderson and our 1st? I wouldn't go that high. Quite a risk with Eichel. He comes with baggage and major injury.

I hear you. I never said Anderson. He is a big roster piece. A team trying to win the Cup cannot subtract more than one very good roster piece in order to add an elite one.

It would have to be something like Kotkaniemi, a first, a d-prospect of their choice not named Romanov, a B-prospect (Vejdemo or Hillis), and cap dump (Byron).

It is a tough call. One day I think Eichel and Suzuki be great down the middle next 5 years. Next day I think 10 million to much. It's only a 40 point upgrade on what I think KK will provide. Around 90 points to 50 points. We can get more production elsewhere with it.

But not everyday a top 10 center in NHL comes on the market.