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Post by franko on Jun 23, 2007 13:47:07 GMT -5
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Post by seventeen on Jun 23, 2007 14:23:08 GMT -5
Concerning Esposito, there's always a chance (and maybe a decent chance) that he turns into a pretty darn good scorer and we may kick ourselves for not picking him. On the one hand, I'm glad Gainey has the nerve and conviction to not pick him, but I also worry that maybe he was bored last year and will break out again to show true colours.
That's another thing that makes following the Habs so much fun.
H & C, about David Perron, when I saw his play at the Mem cup, he reminded me a bit of Mike Bossy. Kind of not there, and then suddenly he's dangerous. On the other hand, he's a 19 year old in an 18 year old draft and if he got totally missed last year, it's a least a curious happenstance. Man, are there ever tons of question marks about players in this draft. That's normal when it's a weak one and 4th rounders are being picked in the 2nd...their acne stands out.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 23, 2007 14:23:31 GMT -5
the winning list, the CSB and ISS are looking to interview you for a job, you interested? Who's your daddy!! Get lucky sometimes, that's for sure. This was such a tough draft to call so I am surprised with the number of right guesses. Nailing both Habs picks was a shocker, but they had what I thought they were after with this draft. Oh well, on to the post-draft analysis...just another sunny summer day in Habsville.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 23, 2007 15:18:50 GMT -5
Can't wait to see what Doc has to say ... Dunno if you'll like it Skill. I couldn’t post my thoughts yesterday because…well… they were just emotions and I certainly don’t have a good enough handle on the English language to really make you understand how last night felt. Here are some thoughts on this nevertheless: I was watching the draft with my oldest son who is a Devils fan (or more precisely a Brodeur fan). When Carolina announced their pick at 11th, I literally jumped in the air. It was my Stanley Cup, I hadn’t felt this happy about my team in ages, Espo had fallen low enough for us to pick him, I couldn’t believe our luck. Even if Gainey was too dumb to trade a couple spots up to secure that important pick, Espo was falling on our lap nonetheless! There I was giving high fives to my son as he was joking at how Brodeur would shut down Espo in the Bell Center… We were giggling, joking, I was doing the friggin’ moonwalk. What can you say, I am a passionate fan and I was having a field day.. Then the announcement... I couldn’t believe it. My son said something along the lines of “…Holly F*ck, they really work hard at scr*wing themselves do they…” but I couldn’t speak, it all just seemed unreal, I was just waiting to hear that they had made a trade and grabbed him with the next pick, but pick went on and Pitts took him. When they interviewed Esposito, the kid was in shock, crushed, and, as PTH said, the commentator was just rubbing it in, “…but how does it feel that the HABS ignored you…”, etc… Espo was putting on the best faked smile he could muster and avoided the questions… Memmories of him with his HABS cap and goofy smile were coming back and I literally had a lump in my throat and felt I was going to cry… …or vomit. I couldn’t take it and I changed channel. The mood in the house completely changed, total silence… My son who would usually rub it in playfully when our teams met and they would crush us, was silent as a tomb. HABSRUS crossed my mind, but then I felt “..bad idea….”. It certainly wasn’t the time, last night, for me to come here… I had to mull this over with a couple of good old Dry Martinis. When the steamed (and fog) was completely gone, I actually was happy. Really happy for Esposito who will go on a real team with real winners, true leaders, an organization dedicated to winning. He’ll learn to be a winner and he’ll put his hands on the Stanley cup before long. The fun and pleasure he’ll have and the incredible growth and development he’ll go through there will blend with his elite talent and he’ll become an amazing player in this league. A player who, like so many others, will have learned to avoid the Canadiens. Will have learned that it’s not important for the Canadiens to have them. As for the HABS organization? What can I say Skilly… Insignifiant, arrogant, dishonnest. How can they stand there and tell the local fan base that it is really important for them to get local players. Just how friggin’ dishonest can you be to a fan base that is filling your arena and pocket… It’s just disgusting. Through the years they traded away ALL of my favourite players. Roy, Turgeon, Damphousse, Recchi, Ribeiro… They missed out on quantities of good local players that play all around this league and now under Gainey, this local players representation is down to an insignificant level. Heck they even push the insult to the level of trying to sell us Huet as a local guy because he speaks French… (How would you feel if I was trying to pass any Joe Shmoe as a New Foundlander simply because of the language?…) How much disappointments and slap across the face can I take? I think I’m pretty near it. If I was from Ontario, New Foundland, Calgary or New York, I probably wouldn’t give a hoot about Quebec players but I’m from Montreal. I grew up on this team that’s in the heart of Quebec, with an incredibly strong Quebec heritage as something the Quebec society has always been proud of. It’s a sign, a brand, a flag… I can’t pretend and make believe it doesn’t hurt me when they ignore local players. Really Skilly, Why should I? Who are my favorite hockey players nowadays… Lecavalier, Briere, Brodeur, Crosby, Bergeron, Oveshkin… Any of them on the Canadiens? Nope. Any of them close to being a Canadien? Nope. Anything nearly ressembling them close to being a Canadien? Nope. Why am I fan then? Just because 30 years ago this team really meant something to the player on it and their passion touched me? Time have changed, so why do I still give a darn for a team filled with players that leaves me mostly indifferent, run and owned by an organization that lie to me and is just interested in the cash I give them… No answer. Really none. I would have never become a HABS fan with the teams and organizations that we’ve seen since 1995. Never. …on the other hand, Pittsburgh is a really interesting organisation. Filled with players with passion who echo and ownership and management that display passion as well. Luckily RDS is often showing Pens games and something tells me they’ll be showing even more… I don’t wish anything good on the Canadiens anymore, I hope they sink and rot like many are predicting, I hope they hit their 100yr anniversary with a bottom feeder team that no local fans cares about, I hope Carbo resigns, I hope the Pens can acquire Latendresse for a bag of pucks and I hope those Pens actually win their next Stanley Cup on that 100th year anniversary of the HABS. You can bet that I’d be doing the moonwalk over this one… Right now, that's what I have to say about this.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 23, 2007 15:36:43 GMT -5
The simple fact that not picking Espo is causing such a fuss drives me nuts! Why can't the fans just let the hockey people decide who the best player for the hockey team is? Why does it always have to be the hometown kid, or the one that speaks the language? There are legitimate concerns about Espo's attitude and work ethic, which I'm sure Trevor Timmins and Bob Gainey know a whole lot more about than us. Nineteen other teams also passed on him, and the one that took him, is probably the only team in the league that can afford him to risk him being a bust because they already have enough young guys to make them a Cup contender. I was more upset they didnt trade up to get Cherapanov, who was hands down the best player in the draft.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 23, 2007 15:42:05 GMT -5
Your English is perfect, Doc, and the sentiment is shared.
It's like they went out of their way NOT to pick him. I was surprised that they didn't pick him at #12 but the table was set perfectly for them to move up to #19 and grab him there. No way was he going to get past Pittsburgh. All it would have cost us was our pick at #22 and probably a 3rd rounder in a weak draft to move up to #19.
I do think there is an arrogance in the organization. The fact is that nobody can be certain that Espo will be a bust so why, after getting the guy they really wanted in McDonagh, would you not score points with the fans and take a chance on a guy who could potentially be a star? What's the downside? Are they THAT certain Max Pacioretty and/or Olivier Fortier will be better than Esposito? Of course they aren't, so why not make the move? Worst case is he is a bust not a costly pick.
The other issue you eloquently pointed out is the general message it sends to francophone players in the league. I'm sure there were lots of guys from Briere, to Lecavalier, to Mario Lemieux and Ray Bourque, guys who grew up in Montreal, guys who played for different teams but who KNOW what the Habs mean to Montreal - I'm sure even they are scratching their heads as to why Gainey would have passed on the chance to energize the fan base AND get a potential star.
I'm fine with merit and I'm fine with the general position that yoiu go with the best player available, but the reality is there is a strong cultural connection between the Habs and the Francophone community. It matters. And when there is a local player on the team from Richard to Beliveau to Lafleur and Roy, it matters even more. All things being equal you go with the local guy.
Again, I don't blame them for taking McDonagh at #12 but I'm still in shock they didn't move up to get him at #19. People have a right to be pissed off about this.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 23, 2007 15:47:12 GMT -5
"Why does it always have to be the hometown kid," you got to be kidding? go look at the last 15 years of HAbs drafts I'm talking about the fans complaining about not drafting the hometown kid. Remember how much pressure there was to draft Latendresse? How about the complaining we still hear about Gagne...or lets go back to Denis Savard. Or in other aspects, how about the fervor over trying to put a package together to get Lecavalier from Tampa, because he's great and he grew up a Hab fan. In Montreal, it's always about getting the hometown kid. Same as Toronto, and when they do, it always works out. (Lindros, Corson, Roberts, O'Neill, Nolan) Look at the last 3 cup winners, Tampa, Carolina, Anaheim. No pressure to draft hometown kids because they don't produce hockey players yet. Its all about "Best Player for the Team" down there. Funny how that works. They please their fans by winning, not by getting players people know through their neighbors friend's cousin. I hate that too Roggy ...drafting or trading for someone just because he is french, or a team throwing in the token french player in a trade with us. BUT ... this was no ordinary local kid. Neither was Savard or Gagne. I think what irks people who want local content is that the Habs seem to continually pass on the local content that is in the upper echelon of the league (or has that kind of potential). And the local pressure to draft Latendresse has worked out so far. Try naming all the Quebec players that Montreal drafted in the last ten years that were busts, and then name the ones they passed on that locals and media were "pressuring them" that are enjoying good to great careers? In the last ten years Montreal has drafted 3 french players in the first two rounds (Chouinard, Riberio and Latendresse). Only one of them was really a bust, Chouinard. Now all the locals they passed on that were not busts .... well they are too many to name.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 23, 2007 16:10:01 GMT -5
Your English is perfect, Doc, and the sentiment is shared. It's like they went out of their way NOT to pick him. I was surprised that they didn't pick him at #12 but the table was set perfectly for them to move up to #19 and grab him there. No way was he going to get past Pittsburgh. All it would have cost us was our pick at #22 and probably a 3rd rounder in a weak draft to move up to #19. I do think there is an arrogance in the organization. The fact is that nobody can be certain that Espo will be a bust so why, after getting the guy they really wanted in McDonagh, would you not score points with the fans and take a chance on a guy who could potentially be a star? What's the downside? Are they THAT certain Max Pacioretty and/or Olivier Fortier will be better than Esposito? Of course they aren't, so why not make the move? Worst case is he is a bust not a costly pick. The other issue you eloquently pointed out is the general message it sends to francophone players in the league. I'm sure there were lots of guys from Briere, to Lecavalier, to Mario Lemieux and Ray Bourque, guys who grew up in Montreal, guys who played for different teams but who KNOW what the Habs mean to Montreal - I'm sure even they are scratching their heads as to why Gainey would have passed on the chance to energize the fan base AND get a potential star. I'm fine with merit and I'm fine with the general position that yoiu go with the best player available, but the reality is there is a strong cultural connection between the Habs and the Francophone community. It matters. And when there is a local player on the team from Richard to Beliveau to Lafleur and Roy, it matters even more. All things being equal you go with the local guy. Again, I don't blame them for taking McDonagh at #12 but I'm still in shock they didn't move up to get him at #19. People have a right to be pissed off about this. The thing that eats at me most is that people are making the excuse "why should we draft local players for the sake of drafting them, we should take the BPA or someone who fits our needs"? Well that's fine .... Hmmmm who was the BPA at #15, #16, #17, or #18? All spots we could have traded up to? Esposito and Cherapanov. What are we lacking? We need defense, we got the best one in the draft at #12. And we need top 6 talent , preferably at center. Esposito is a center, and top 6 talent. So he was a need. We know have 6-7 defensive prospects in the cupboard and no one to score. At best Pacioretty is Mike Mcphee ... and worst he necer plays in the NHL .... but looking at Montreal's draft picks this year only one is a sure thing ... McDonagh. The rest? Well I'd be surprised if they ever done an NHL jersey ... so why not swing for the fence?
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Post by habmeister on Jun 23, 2007 16:21:29 GMT -5
the old saying "building from net out" is sure applying to our team. with a solid defence core, very solid, and great goaltending, combined with good speedy forwards and balanced scoring from lines 1-3. with a 4th line full of grit and great checkers its easy to see what bob is building. it isn't a french team, it is a winning team.
if half our of d prospects turn out to where they are projected we're going to be a solid top 5-7 team in the league.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 23, 2007 16:28:43 GMT -5
I dunno, I go along with Gainey and Timmins' drafting philosophy just to counter another take on the last two days.
Gainey has shown that he is tired of a few things in the organization. He is tired of too much time spent on players who divide the team and don't bring their all to the rink every night. He has rid the team of a few lately. Now, his hands are not exactly squeaky clean on this front as a fair number were acquired on his shift,
In order to stockpile the farm with players who want to play and who play hard, he has purposefully gone out and drafted character. Chipchura is that kind of player, who may not be the best but he makes others around him better by leading from example. He has gone after past team captains by the bushel load and this trend of drafting character was alive and well again this draft.
He also wants to get bigger, and has been targeting some size in the draft where possible with the BPA approach. Chipper, Gui and the top guys in this draft are all top prospects who bring some size to the table. This will not change the look of the big club overnight, but it is heading in a better direction. Andre Savard loved smaller, skilled guys, but too much of any one thing is not necessarily a good thing. Gainey is evening things out a bit.
Gainey also inherited a team that was weak in depth at the blueline, both at the NHL level and at the farm/prospect level. 10 defenders from the last two drafts shows that this was on his mind front and centre...no pun intended although that should be developing as a bit of a draft priority for 2008 IMO.
The gap in his approach and strategy is the local hero factor. I know how passionate the fan base is around the team, and there is a constant bubbling need to stock some local talent on the team to keep the fanatical following from boiling over. Gui, Carle, Lapierre, Carle and now Fortier are a nice down payment, but more likely needs to be done...but not at the cost of getting a non-francophone who can make the team better. Gainey, who keeps a lot close to the chest, probably made a huge PR mistake by indicating on the eve of the draft that they were looking to add more local talent. The only truth to that was if the team was based in a certain border state in the mid-west, that fancies itself as the land of 10,000 lakes. Oops, no brownie points there and loads of fodder for RDS, 110% and the various other local media outlets.
The bottom line is that just missing or just making the playoffs is not good enough. Too many years of being a pretender is testing our collective and overall patience. I, and everyone here, wants to see a winning team. They want to see winning players wearing that classic and storied jersey. If we win and keep winning, hometowns are quickly forgotten. Will the team down the road have a better chance with guys like McDonagh and Max than with Espo or Perron? Apparently Gainey and Timmins think so at this point.
I will not waver in my support of this team because of the selection of a foursome of teen aged mutant Minnesotans over a quartet of boys who grew up along the St Lawrence or Richelieu rivers. Case in point, Higgins and Komo are part of the next phase of this team, and the loyal fan base is adoring of these two guys and what they bring. We very well could have added to that list with some of the picks this draft.
I will patiently wait and see, but I do thank Gainey and Timmins for trying to add to core of our future teams based on thousands of games watched, hundred and hundred of hours on the video, in interviews with the kids, talking to their coaches, friends and others. I don't think these decisions are made lightly.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 23, 2007 17:15:24 GMT -5
The simple fact that not picking Espo is causing such a fuss drives me nuts! Why can't the fans just let the hockey people decide who the best player for the hockey team is? Why does it always have to be the hometown kid, or the one that speaks the language? There are legitimate concerns about Espo's attitude and work ethic, which I'm sure Trevor Timmins and Bob Gainey know a whole lot more about than us. Nineteen other teams also passed on him, and the one that took him, is probably the only team in the league that can afford him to risk him being a bust because they already have enough young guys to make them a Cup contender. I agree 100%. * Now, before we annoint sainthood on Espo, let's take a look at some of the flaws that scared away 19 NHL teams on Friday night... From The Hockey News: "His attitude is troubling. When he played with Radulov, he was dominant, but since Radulov left, he has mailed it in".From ISS: Plays on the outside - does a lot of fishing with stick near scrums for loose pucks. Needs to show more competitiveness. Used his speed to win races, but wouldn't battle for loose pucks. Soft mentally and questionable leadership ability at next level.Don't these sound like traits that we're trying to get rid of on the current edition of the Habs? If Esposito was from any other part of the world, we would be begging Gainey to NOT pick him. And now, just because he's a local boy, we should take him no matter what?? Personally, I applaud Gainey and Timmins for having the moxie to march to their own beat. The draft is about building a solid hockey team. It's not a popularity contest. The negative traits that Esposito has, are the same that might make him comparable to Alexandre Daigle down the road. Heck, if I didn't know any better, I would swear that the ISS blurb above, was a summary about Sergei Samsonov's tenure in Montreal. Timmins has stated before that he likes players who continuously show improvement. For all the hype surrounding Esposito, this is a guy who crumbled under the pressure of his draft year. If he can't handle that, how would he have handled the pressure of being the next saviour of the Montreal Canadiens?? The fact that Espo was touted as a 1st overall pick a year ago, only to fall to 20th overall because of his weak play (in the most important year of his hockey career) speaks volumes about his character and his ability to handle pressure. I'm all for the Montreal Canadiens drafting local players. But only if they are the right type of players. Drafting just because they are local, is a recipe for disaster.
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Post by jkr on Jun 23, 2007 17:23:51 GMT -5
I I will patiently wait and see, but I do thank Gainey and Timmins for trying to add to core of our future teams based on thousands of games watched, hundred and hundred of hours on the video, in interviews with the kids, talking to their coaches, friends and others. I don't think these decisions are made lightly. I have to agree with your sentiments NWT but I can't begin to express myself to the length and eloquence of you or Doc. I read a post from turnbuckle in the Prospects thread. He relates a conversation he had with Timmins in which TT indicates that he would not have drafted Esposito, even at 22. This feeling can't be due to arrogance but due to the time & effort expended in evaluating players. And this feeling was shared around the league. I don't know why but it was. Doc, wow are you angry, even more than after the Ribierio trade I think. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) Although I too grew up in Montreal, I am an anglophone so I only have a small sense of how you are feeling. I read your posts with interest because although I don't always agree, they are well thought out and on the mark. They sometimes make us face the truth about this team. However, I have to disagree when you characterize management as arrogant and didinterested in their fan base. I don't agree with everything Gainey does, far from it, but I do believe he has the best interests of the hockey fans at heart. I hope your anger & disappointment abates and you change your mind about the team Doc. You may not believe it but I feel the support and intelligent criticism of you and fans like you will make this team better. They certainly make this board better.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 23, 2007 17:28:49 GMT -5
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Never mind that we need a number one center NOW. not yesterday, NOW. So, had Esposito been drafted by the Habs, are you saying that he would have been our #1 center in 2007/08? Cardinal rule of the draft is that you don't draft based on current needs. So let me get this straight... you're downplaying Price's abilities because he hasn't faced an NHL shooter yet, yet Esposito (who hasn't left the Q yet) has already won the Calder?? And Price isn't hyped up based on 2006 press clippings or his place of birth. His trophy collection to date speaks for itself. You know this is what really ticks me off about the fickle Hab fan base. If you're a Habs' GM, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's the ultimate Catch-22. To date, the selection of Carey Price has proven to be a good one. Gainey and Timmins made a good pick. A pick that has accomplished all that we could ask a prospect to accomplish and yet, it still gets criticized by fans who seem to not be pleased by anything. I just don't get it. To be honest HA, I'm surprised at your love for Espo. I thought that he would be exactly the type of player that you despise... a soft, inconsistent, perimeter player who disappears under pressure... sounds a lot like the many posts you had describing Mike "Gollum" Ribeiro.
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Post by CentreHice on Jun 23, 2007 17:44:26 GMT -5
…on the other hand, Pittsburgh is a really interesting organisation. Filled with players with passion who echo and ownership and management that display passion as well. Luckily RDS is often showing Pens games and something tells me they’ll be showing even more… I don’t wish anything good on the Canadiens anymore, I hope they sink and rot like many are predicting, I hope they hit their 100yr anniversary with a bottom feeder team that no local fans cares about, I hope Carbo resigns, I hope the Pens can acquire Latendresse for a bag of pucks and I hope those Pens actually win their next Stanley Cup on that 100th year anniversary of the HABS. You can bet that I’d be doing the moonwalk over this one… Right now, that's what I have to say about this. While I feel your pain, Doc...truly I do.....don't mistake Pittsburgh's "passion" with the fact that they sucked for quite a few years...garnering people like Malkin and Staal in the draft....then lucking out with the Crosby lottery win. They improved three-fold in the span of three years by "suck and luck". But again, believe me, I understand your sentiment. I have been a Habs' fan since 1968. The "Flying Frenchmen" were an entity unto themselves....US against the world, it seemed. But don't you at least think that Carbonneau and Gainey are the last vestiges of that tradition? Gainey took the time to learn the language....he feels it, too. It's obvious to me that both he and Carbonneau want the pride, passion, and character back in the lineup regardless of heritage. Latendresse apparently has what they want. Perhaps Timmins/Gainey will speak out about not drafting Espo.
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Post by Willie Dog on Jun 23, 2007 17:55:57 GMT -5
One other thing about Esposito, the Canes interviewed him more then the Habs did and they passed on him at 11 I believe. I like the direction Gainey and Timmins are going.
Strong and steady wins the race.
Character is something you're born with.
Last night when Esposito got selected by Pitt and he shook hands with those around him, my wife (who shockingly was watching the draft with me) said 'Did you see that?' I said 'what?' She said, 'Esposito shook hands with a guy on the steps and then pushed him away'
Did any of you see that?
IMO, If he did do that, then that is the arrogance we don't need on this team...
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Post by Anardil1 on Jun 23, 2007 18:19:42 GMT -5
I hate that feeling. In my mind the issue is how much better or worse is Esposito than Max Pacioretty and whatever draft pick it would have cost us to move up ahead of Pittsburgh. A 2nd or 3rd rounder? That's exactly what I'm thinking. Never mind that we need a number one center NOW. not yesterday, NOW. On top of that, we need to replace Koivu in a few years. How straight forward and logical is that? Chances are that Espo will win the Calder but of course, all the Gainey lovers will just point out that poor little Trevor and poor Gainey could have no way of knowing that. And God forbid that anyone could possibly question their judgement (based on drafting Price The Saviour, never mind that Price The Saviour has yet to see a single shot from an NHL sniper). I'm hoping that there is a dirty little secret about Espo otherwise the media will rip Gainey a dozen new ones and I would say it's well and truly justified. A friend of mine who is in the NHL is just lauging his head off right now. Problem is, he is doing it at our expense. The same can be said about Espo (who by the way was cut from 2 Canadian Junior team camps). I'm HAPPY Gainey and Timmins had the sack to thumb their noses at the blinder wearing media and fans clamouring Espo and/or Perron. I don't see the fuss about Esposito. IMHO he was exposed as a very talented player who needs help to produce. Just compare his seasons with and without Radulov. He was lucky to be chosen by the Pens. They have the players to bring the best out of him. I wanted McDonagh (or Ellerby). The Bell Centre will not be a fun place to play for the visitors soon.
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Post by UberCranky on Jun 23, 2007 18:30:38 GMT -5
To be honest HA, I'm surprised at your love for Espo. I thought that he would be exactly the type of player that you despise... a soft, inconsistent, perimeter player who disappears under pressure... sounds a lot like the many posts you had describing Mike "Gollum" Ribeiro. I am not a fan of Espo. What I see is that we have a really weak team down the middle (to say nothing about defence) and someone like Espo has the skill to bring something on the table in a relativly short time. If turns out that he is NOT a headcase then we walked away from considerble talent for a third rounder who have no more then a 20% chance of making even for a cup of coffee. Think of the nightmare if Koivu has another knee injury? We would be laughing stock of the NHL. My aggravation stems from the endless mediocrity that we are mired. Worse still, at THIS point we are even weaker then the last two years.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 23, 2007 18:43:03 GMT -5
I dunno, I go along with Gainey and Timmins' drafting philosophy just to counter another take on the last two days. I agree 100% with everything you and Forum Ghost just said. Strip all that away, though, and you're left with the simple fact that we could easily have moved up from #22 to #19 to draft Esposito by parting with Max Pacioretty and our 2nd or 3rd round pick. Reading the notes on Pacioretty it sounds like he has a long way to go with a ceiling not much higher than Jason Ward or Shayne Corson. If Espo had turned out to be a bust or a cancer then he'd be gone with the cost only being what projects to be a 3rd line banger and a 2nd/3rd round pick in a weak draft. For me, it was worth the small gamble to move up and get Esposito with a ton of upside and, really, very little downside considering the draft was ALREADY a huge success with the McDonagh pick. It was all gravy at that point - why not swing for the fences AND get the fan base pumped up?
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Post by Anardil1 on Jun 23, 2007 18:52:28 GMT -5
The simple fact that not picking Espo is causing such a fuss drives me nuts! Why can't the fans just let the hockey people decide who the best player for the hockey team is? Why does it always have to be the hometown kid, or the one that speaks the language? There are legitimate concerns about Espo's attitude and work ethic, which I'm sure Trevor Timmins and Bob Gainey know a whole lot more about than us. Nineteen other teams also passed on him, and the one that took him, is probably the only team in the league that can afford him to risk him being a bust because they already have enough young guys to make them a Cup contender. I agree 100%. * Now, before we annoint sainthood on Espo, let's take a look at some of the flaws that scared away 19 NHL teams on Friday night... From The Hockey News: "His attitude is troubling. When he played with Radulov, he was dominant, but since Radulov left, he has mailed it in".From ISS: Plays on the outside - does a lot of fishing with stick near scrums for loose pucks. Needs to show more competitiveness. Used his speed to win races, but wouldn't battle for loose pucks. Soft mentally and questionable leadership ability at next level.Don't these sound like traits that we're trying to get rid of on the current edition of the Habs? If Esposito was from any other part of the world, we would be begging Gainey to NOT pick him. And now, just because he's a local boy, we should take him no matter what?? Personally, I applaud Gainey and Timmins for having the moxie to march to their own beat. The draft is about building a solid hockey team. It's not a popularity contest. The negative traits that Esposito has, are the same that might make him comparable to Alexandre Daigle down the road. Heck, if I didn't know any better, I would swear that the ISS blurb above, was a summary about Sergei Samsonov's tenure in Montreal. Timmins has stated before that he likes players who continuously show improvement. For all the hype surrounding Esposito, this is a guy who crumbled under the pressure of his draft year. If he can't handle that, how would he have handled the pressure of being the next saviour of the Montreal Canadiens?? The fact that Espo was touted as a 1st overall pick a year ago, only to fall to 20th overall because of his weak play (in the most important year of his hockey career) speaks volumes about his character and his ability to handle pressure. I'm all for the Montreal Canadiens drafting local players. But only if they are the right type of players. Drafting just because they are local, is a recipe for disaster. What a great post! Esposito has done NOTHING this year to garner the hype he was getting. They drafted the right "local" kid this year in Fortier. Esposito and Perron are both very skilled, but have too many holes in their games. It's getting to the point where I hope the "fans" who are thinking of switching their allegiances follow through on their threat.
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Post by ropoflu on Jun 23, 2007 18:54:31 GMT -5
Can't wait to see what Doc has to say ... Dunno if you'll like it Skill. I couldn’t post my thoughts yesterday because…well… they were just emotions and I certainly don’t have a good enough handle on the English language to really make you understand how last night felt. Here are some thoughts on this nevertheless: I was watching the draft with my oldest son who is a Devils fan (or more precisely a Brodeur fan). When Carolina announced their pick at 11th, I literally jumped in the air. It was my Stanley Cup, I hadn’t felt this happy about my team in ages, Espo had fallen low enough for us to pick him, I couldn’t believe our luck. Even if Gainey was too dumb to trade a couple spots up to secure that important pick, Espo was falling on our lap nonetheless! There I was giving high fives to my son as he was joking at how Brodeur would shut down Espo in the Bell Center… We were giggling, joking, I was doing the friggin’ moonwalk. What can you say, I am a passionate fan and I was having a field day.. Then the announcement... I couldn’t believe it. My son said something along the lines of “…Holly F*ck, they really work hard at scr*wing themselves do they…” but I couldn’t speak, it all just seemed unreal, I was just waiting to hear that they had made a trade and grabbed him with the next pick, but pick went on and Pitts took him. When they interviewed Esposito, the kid was in shock, crushed, and, as PTH said, the commentator was just rubbing it in, “…but how does it feel that the HABS ignored you…”, etc… Espo was putting on the best faked smile he could muster and avoided the questions… Memmories of him with his HABS cap and goofy smile were coming back and I literally had a lump in my throat and felt I was going to cry… …or vomit. I couldn’t take it and I changed channel. The mood in the house completely changed, total silence… My son who would usually rub it in playfully when our teams met and they would crush us, was silent as a tomb. HABSRUS crossed my mind, but then I felt “..bad idea….”. It certainly wasn’t the time, last night, for me to come here… I had to mull this over with a couple of good old Dry Martinis. When the steamed (and fog) was completely gone, I actually was happy. Really happy for Esposito who will go on a real team with real winners, true leaders, an organization dedicated to winning. He’ll learn to be a winner and he’ll put his hands on the Stanley cup before long. The fun and pleasure he’ll have and the incredible growth and development he’ll go through there will blend with his elite talent and he’ll become an amazing player in this league. A player who, like so many others, will have learned to avoid the Canadiens. Will have learned that it’s not important for the Canadiens to have them. As for the HABS organization? What can I say Skilly… Insignifiant, arrogant, dishonnest. How can they stand there and tell the local fan base that it is really important for them to get local players. Just how friggin’ dishonest can you be to a fan base that is filling your arena and pocket… It’s just disgusting. Through the years they traded away ALL of my favourite players. Roy, Turgeon, Damphousse, Recchi, Ribeiro… They missed out on quantities of good local players that play all around this league and now under Gainey, this local players representation is down to an insignificant level. Heck they even push the insult to the level of trying to sell us Huet as a local guy because he speaks French… (How would you feel if I was trying to pass any Joe Shmoe as a New Foundlander simply because of the language?…) How much disappointments and slap across the face can I take? I think I’m pretty near it. If I was from Ontario, New Foundland, Calgary or New York, I probably wouldn’t give a hoot about Quebec players but I’m from Montreal. I grew up on this team that’s in the heart of Quebec, with an incredibly strong Quebec heritage as something the Quebec society has always been proud of. It’s a sign, a brand, a flag… I can’t pretend and make believe it doesn’t hurt me when they ignore local players. Really Skilly, Why should I? Who are my favorite hockey players nowadays… Lecavalier, Briere, Brodeur, Crosby, Bergeron, Oveshkin… Any of them on the Canadiens? Nope. Any of them close to being a Canadien? Nope. Anything nearly ressembling them close to being a Canadien? Nope. Why am I fan then? Just because 30 years ago this team really meant something to the player on it and their passion touched me? Time have changed, so why do I still give a darn for a team filled with players that leaves me mostly indifferent, run and owned by an organization that lie to me and is just interested in the cash I give them… No answer. Really none. I would have never become a HABS fan with the teams and organizations that we’ve seen since 1995. Never. …on the other hand, Pittsburgh is a really interesting organisation. Filled with players with passion who echo and ownership and management that display passion as well. Luckily RDS is often showing Pens games and something tells me they’ll be showing even more… I don’t wish anything good on the Canadiens anymore, I hope they sink and rot like many are predicting, I hope they hit their 100yr anniversary with a bottom feeder team that no local fans cares about, I hope Carbo resigns, I hope the Pens can acquire Latendresse for a bag of pucks and I hope those Pens actually win their next Stanley Cup on that 100th year anniversary of the HABS. You can bet that I’d be doing the moonwalk over this one… Right now, that's what I have to say about this. I felt it too doc. I was with a few friends and when Pitts selected him, we all tried to rationalize it one way or another despite our obvious deception... without much success. Then my mother called. She just feel everything everytime. A real psychic I believe. After a few words, she knew something wasn't right, and I explained a little bit the situation knowing how futile our reaction was anyway, you know, it's really just hockey after all. But then she said: we need to draft the next Jean Beliveau. She's not a hockey fan. In fact I can't remember a time when she watch a hockey game with us, my brother, sister and I. She was too busy any anyway, being a single mom and all. But she wasn't really referring to a hockey player. My Mom's father was a brute. My own father was in elsewhere. So when my mom, tried to explain to her older teenager (me) what kind a man she wanted him to become she always referred to that man of honor, of great class, that man who stands up and can face himself without shame. Her own youth hero: Jean Béliveau. My grand-father (father side), a Montrealer, once told me about the Rocket courage, and how it inspired him and other of his times to ask for more, and to take there place in society. I think this is where the "drafting a local player" argument could sometimes surpass the BPA logic. Not saying that Esposito was the next Béliveau, but the hope that he could have been a great one in our backyard, justifies the deception, no more rational needed. Some say he is lazy or has a poor attitude. But again,someone who knows quite a lot about being a champion recommended him to us. And while he may never blossom, seeing Angelo at the draft, you could tell he was quite emotive about not being selected by Montreal. To me that kind of sense of belonging have been missing for too long.
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Post by habmeister on Jun 23, 2007 19:34:01 GMT -5
i think that in some way that the city, media, angelo himself, putting pressure on montreal drafting espo almost makes it more difficult for them to pick him. if he turns out, then all the armchair scouts are rejoicing about how they knew, they knew it! if he busts, then the media, city, fans have every excuse and are all calling in saying how they should have passed on him and taken a sure thing and that they wasted a #12 or #19 pick on a flake. i only expect us to draft better than most, and manage better than most, coach better than most and play harder than most. a combination of those things make good/great teams.
i think we have one of the best drafting staffs in the game, top 5, and in that i continue to have faith in the choices they make.
i also predict esposito will NOT win the calder trophy, in fact i doubt he's top 5 in voting in his rookie year. might have to add that to my sig.
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Post by jimmyjazz on Jun 23, 2007 19:53:59 GMT -5
Ropoflu, you're spot on with your last sentence... I kinda feel like Doc a little too. I wasn't that high at all on Esposito, but to me, it seems they did everything not to get the guy... and again, by the reports we gather, almost every pick aside from Mcdonough seems to be a «safe» one. We're gonna have the best third line of the league in a few years.
I think many of us got our hopes way too high for this draft. I for one was really excited; I thought Gainey had many options, especially with two first round picks. I would have loved to see them make a move to make the team better now, or at least draft someone with high offensive potential. Seeing how picks were flying around, I don't think a first round pick had as many weight as it did in the other drafts, so maybe that's why no one would bite at getting one for an established player.
This also means that if they really wanted to move up, they could have done so pretty easily imo.
You make a very, very good point there. The habs just don't seem to like the QJMHL when it comes to drafting.
All in all, the sentiment i'm left with is that the team is no better than last year, and for some reason I don't think we're going to see major changes in the next months. I just hope I'm completly wrong, but man will it get tiresome to hear the same crap about our great future come training camp.
And by the way, I've been on HF boards in the last few days to get some info on prospects and man are they hangry teenagers. for them, it seems wanting to draft Esposito means you're a bigot lol.
Honestly you guys are ALL intelligent posters and it's always a pleasure to read your opinions. So keep it up and thanks a lot...
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Post by UberCranky on Jun 23, 2007 20:16:54 GMT -5
It's getting to the point where I hope the "fans" who are thinking of switching their allegiances follow through on their threat. EVERYBODY has an opinion and we either tolerate it or ignore it. What we are NOT going to do is start chewing on each other.
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Post by UberCranky on Jun 23, 2007 20:26:01 GMT -5
Honestly you guys are ALL intelligent posters and it's always a pleasure to read your opinions. So keep it up and thanks a lot... Do not insult me by calling me intelligent. I am cranking on the internet to people that I have not even met over something that I can neither wear or eat. THAT must be a sign of something, but it can't possibly be intelligence. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) I think that we will all forget who Espo is, was or going to be if we see some progress in signings or trades. This angst has far more to do with the team then with Mr. Espo. If not,..... I'm going to go and buy one of those old World War one helmets and wear it when I log on here because it's going to get UGLY in Habland.
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Post by UberCranky on Jun 23, 2007 20:33:38 GMT -5
…on the other hand, Pittsburgh is a really interesting organisation. Filled with players with passion who echo and ownership and management that display passion as well. Luckily RDS is often showing Pens games and something tells me they’ll be showing even more… I don’t wish anything good on the Canadiens anymore, I hope they sink and rot like many are predicting, I hope they hit their 100yr anniversary with a bottom feeder team that no local fans cares about, I hope Carbo resigns, I hope the Pens can acquire Latendresse for a bag of pucks and I hope those Pens actually win their next Stanley Cup on that 100th year anniversary of the HABS. You can bet that I’d be doing the moonwalk over this one… Right now, that's what I have to say about this. Have you ever tried to take out the CH from every gene in your body? It's not going to happen. Doc, the team needs to get the hell out of the mediocrity spin cycle. Nothing more, nothing less. I'll quarantee you that you will not care WHO is hoisting the cup and the players show us what it MEANS to wear the CH.
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Post by jimmyjazz on Jun 23, 2007 20:56:46 GMT -5
Honestly you guys are ALL intelligent posters and it's always a pleasure to read your opinions. So keep it up and thanks a lot... Do not insult me by calling me intelligent. I am cranking on the internet to people that I have not even met over something that I can neither wear or eat. THAT must be a sign of something, but it can't possibly be intelligence. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Doesn't make you stupid either, so i'll just say you guys make sense and actually respect each other. is that alright? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by franko on Jun 23, 2007 20:56:47 GMT -5
For all the angst about missing oiut on Espo, he would not have been in a Habs uni this coming year regardless, and most certainly would not have been the reincarnation of the Rocket nor the Calder Cup winner. If he wins it in Pittsburgh it will be because of his teammates -- and as I've already said, he doesn't have that type of teammate here.
The only way for the Habs to improve as the Pens did is to tank the next 5 seasons. None of us wants that.
And the Pens having better management and being a better organization? Remind me who the coach is. Remind me of how many times the team has been on the block the last number of years and how the only way the team is staying is that the NHL won't let them move, and that they need a casino to keep them afloat.
Espo was not to be the saviour. He would be the media darling for a short time, but if he faltered even a little bit he'd have bene crucifed. f nothing else, it is better for him not to be here so that he can develop away from the spotlight and away from the pressure.
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Post by HabbaDasher on Jun 23, 2007 21:17:42 GMT -5
Bravo Gainey and Timmins for passing on Esposito and Perron. McDonagh and Pacioretty are better prospects to eventually play in the NHL, pure and simple.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 23, 2007 21:24:42 GMT -5
And while he may never blossom, seeing Angelo at the draft, you could tell he was quite emotive about not being selected by Montreal. To me that kind of sense of belonging have been missing for too long. True enough, Ropoflu. I was kind of disappointed not seeing the Habs move up like we thought they might. But, I was very, very surprised that they passed on Espo at #12. He sure looked happy enough when he went to Pittsburgh though. And on the Pens side of things, they looked almost giddy at being able to select a former #1-ranked kid. Still, while I'm alright with our #12 selection, I would have really liked to see Espo in a Habs uniform. Cheers.
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Post by BadCompany on Jun 23, 2007 21:28:49 GMT -5
So I'm thinking to myself... how can a team have such a great draft, and yet such a bad draft, all at the same time?
I love the McDonagh pick. Love it. The only reason I didn't have the Habs taking him in my mock was because I didn't see any scenario where he would still be available to us. The fact that he was, and that we got him, well, makes me all giggly inside. The fact that we drafted six (six!!) more defensemen just warms my heart. I like it. No, I love it. Subban in particular, I am intrigued by... Do they try to beat some defense into him, or do they move him up to forward? A swift skating, tank of man with good offensive talent? Sign me up.
Pacioretty I don't know much about, but like others were saying, he seems like a safe pick. Unlike others, I'm okay with that, especially at 22 in a weak draft. I've said for years that I view the 3rd line as being just as important as the 1st line, and if he turns into a Travis Moen type guy, then I have nothing against that. You need those types too.
I won't get into whether or not they should have drafted Esposito (not at 12 with McDonagh still on the board), or whether they should have, or even could have, moved up in the draft. But I will say this; this draft is a disaster for Bob Gainey, from a public relations standpoint, and will be for years to come. Having to pass on Esposito was bad enough... having Esposito taken by the Pittsburgh Penguins, of all teams, is a disaster. After all the talk about those five new scouts in Quebec, we drafted one player from the QMJHL (who I wanted us to draft, by the way). Four American high schoolers and two American players from an inferior league is not going to play well for an organization that promised to make Quebec players a priority. We see the result already, in this thread alone.
And it will get worse. In my opinion Angelo Esposito WILL make the Pittsburgh Penguins next year, and he WILL challenge for the Calder trophy. Might even win it. Sure, it will be in large part because of his teammates, and no, he wouldn't do that in Montreal. But he's going to do it in Pittsburgh. The Penguins after all, have a coach with a rather vested interest in sticking it to Montreal. In the meantime McDonagh will be hidden away in the relative annonymity of the NCAA, and no matter how well he plays, not many people from Quebec are going to follow Wisconsin hockey all that closely. I DO believe that McDonagh will turn into a Chris Chelios player. My fear is that it won't be here, because even when he does arrive, two, three, maybe four years from now, Esposito will already be well entrenched in the NHL, on a power-house, and quite possibly Cup winning team. Like Mark Recchi before him, McDonagh will always be viewed for what he isn't, and not what he is. Which will be a darn fine defenseman. But not a headline grabbing Esposito.
From a pure talent standpoint, our draft seems like a good one, perhaps even a very good one. From a public relations standpoint... this is going to get bad. And the worse it gets, the worse the atmosphere around the team gets. And the worse the atmosphere around the team gets... well, Bob's job of selling players on Montreal just got that much harder. "Uh yeah, sure Bob, Montreal seems like a nice place and all, but why does the front page of that newspaper over there have your picture on it, and not in a flattering way?"
Bob Gainey HAS to get Daniel Briere now. Has to. I hate saying that, but if he doesn't, we may actually see this reflected in ticket sales next year. I know that sounds preposterous, that not drafting Angelo Esposito could affect ticket sales, but unless Gainey does something big, and I mean real big, there is going to be a very foul taste in the mouths of a lot of Montreal Canadiens fans.
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