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Post by franko on Jun 24, 2007 16:15:16 GMT -5
I was thinking today of the other Hossa . . . you know, the one we used to have . . . you know, the one that floated around Montreal for a while before moving along to NY . . . you know, the one that people still bring up as an example of a "good player lost" those occasional games he actually decides to show up but who is quickly forgotten when he goes on those three week "do-nothing" streaks.
I see Espo the same way.
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Post by Yossarian on Jun 24, 2007 17:10:24 GMT -5
I'm all in favour of selecting and grooming local talent when the opportunity presents itself. Moving up to get a player like Espo, would not be one such opportunity though. Really, we are talking about 18 year old prospects whose value changes from month to month with every hot streak and every slump. One thing you do look for in a player in the Q is statistical domination,even as an 18 year old. Its almost a prerequisite for any player coming from this league, who has had some success at the NHL level. Espo's stats are ok, but I don't think his stats compare to other stars at the same age before him that came from the Q. It would be interesting to she his 18 year old stats compared to those of Lemieux, Lafontaine, Crosby, Gagne, and Lecavalier.
From what I hear and read, I have no problem with McDonough, or the pick at 22nd. The players selected are the type that are always valued. The negatives that I here about Espo and Cherapanov, are exactly the things that this team should avoid. Cheraponov: plays when he wants...No thanks, Kovalev is enough of a headache. Espo a soft perimeter players? We're trying (and we've done so already) to rid ourselves of these players. Moving up to get a player that you do not value higher than the player you intend, and reasonably expect to be around when you pick, is the slow and safe way to go. Moving up for any other reason then to take a player you value higher than who may be available, doesn't seem like a reasonable way to go. It would be interesting to know from those who have endorsed this strategy what they base their opinion on, and why their opinion would have more sound reasoning than that of Gainey/Timmins.
Lets face, none of us really have enough knowledge about these young kids to be second guessing Gainey, and especially Timmins, who from all that I read, is a rink rat, spending countless hours scouting and interviewing players and consulting with scouts. I'm going to second guess him related to players I've seen play very little or not at all? No thanks.
We'll leave the second guessing to a few years down the road, when with the benefit of hindsight, I become a expert.
For the time being, I like the direction of this team, building a solid foundation of prospects. I'm not about to jump ship at a time when I think a lot of hard work is about to come to fruition. With a few plan A type signings to fill out the roster, the best is yet to come, after some pretty lean times.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 24, 2007 19:53:28 GMT -5
2 points: We could have traded to get Espo, but as I see it, that would have cost us both Subban and Pacioretty, and in a wide-open draft more picks is more important than better picks, since really no one is a sure thing. Agree. Great example PTH. Like I said before, I'm all for the Habs drafting/trading for local talent, but only if it's the right type of player. I see no point in drafting a guy based on his hometown, when his other characteristics aren't consistent with what you're trying to build. Nothing keeps fans happier than a winning team. I don't think that Montreal fans would be happy if the Habs had all local talent and was a losing team. No one would say, "Sure the team sucks, but at least all the players are Quebec born." Hab fans want a winner. Period. If in the process of building a winner, you are able to add good players who happen to be from Quebec, then great. It should be viewed as a bonus rather than a necessity.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 24, 2007 20:17:11 GMT -5
I'm all in favour of selecting and grooming local talent when the opportunity presents itself. Moving up to get a player like Espo, would not be one such opportunity though. Really, we are talking about 18 year old prospects whose value changes from month to month with every hot streak and every slump. One thing you do look for in a player in the Q is statistical domination,even as an 18 year old. Its almost a prerequisite for any player coming from this league, who has had some success at the NHL level. Espo's stats are ok, but I don't think his stats compare to other stars at the same age before him that came from the Q. It would be interesting to she his 18 year old stats compared to those of Lemieux, Lafontaine, Crosby, Gagne, and Lecavalier. From what I hear and read, I have no problem with McDonough, or the pick at 22nd. The players selected are the type that are always valued. The negatives that I here about Espo and Cherapanov, are exactly the things that this team should avoid. Cheraponov: plays when he wants...No thanks, Kovalev is enough of a headache. Espo a soft perimeter players? We're trying (and we've done so already) to rid ourselves of these players. Moving up to get a player that you do not value higher than the player you intend, and reasonably expect to be around when you pick, is the slow and safe way to go. Moving up for any other reason then to take a player you value higher than who may be available, doesn't seem like a reasonable way to go. It would be interesting to know from those who have endorsed this strategy what they base their opinion on, and why their opinion would have more sound reasoning than that of Gainey/Timmins. Lets face, none of us really have enough knowledge about these young kids to be second guessing Gainey, and especially Timmins, who from all that I read, is a rink rat, spending countless hours scouting and interviewing players and consulting with scouts. I'm going to second guess him related to players I've seen play very little or not at all? No thanks. We'll leave the second guessing to a few years down the road, when with the benefit of hindsight, I become a expert. For the time being, I like the direction of this team, building a solid foundation of prospects. I'm not about to jump ship at a time when I think a lot of hard work is about to come to fruition. With a few plan A type signings to fill out the roster, the best is yet to come, after some pretty lean times. To take it one step further, a guy like Espo or Cherepanov may be the second player still available on your list, and you will still pick someone else for a whole lot of reasons. It is not a snub of any player, just that you like a certain thing or two about another player that much more. It is all a crap shoot based on what these kids may become or project to become, so hardly a science. Now, our team spends a lot of time investing in this science..so chapeau! At least we are not at the video only process like Buffalo moved to this season.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 24, 2007 20:23:18 GMT -5
All those teams use "acquired" defenses .... not drafted. We now have how many defense prospects? Add to it that everyone of those defenses you cited had "experience" back there too ..... well McDonagh, Subban, O'Byrne, Emelin, Valentenko, Fischer, etc .... all touted as sure things. OK ... well you need some experience back there ... so it won't be until 6-7 years until we see all these guys playing together and by that time how many will have been given up on? How many will still be with us? ..... It is obvious from the list of "can't miss" defense prospects that we didn't need more (or are they really considered can't miss by Gainey? ..ahhh theres the rub!). We still haven't got someone in our system who strikes offensive fear into any opponent ... we had a chance on at least one this year and passed. We are missing that scary offensive player or players that teams have to focus on when playing us, no doubt. However, certain gaps have been addressed when looking out a few or five years down the road thanks to the BG/TT drafts over the last five years. Drafts do not address immediate need, never have never will. Good GM's then have to fill the gaps through good trades or FA signings. That last piece of the puzzle is still not accomplished in my mind. Other teams have been much better in that regard than we have over the same five year period. We need to see that part of the game raised to the next level. We, as Habs fans, deserve that!!
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 24, 2007 22:42:17 GMT -5
An interesting look at the draft.
Of the 211 prospects chosen, only 25 were from the Q and only 10 in total were born in Quebec: Angelo Esposito, David Perron, Kevin Marshall, Antoine Lafleur, Keven Veilleux, Maxime Macenauer, Olivier Fortier, Maxime Tanguay, Charles-Antoine Messier and Jean-Simon Allard.
The Habs in fact picked 10% of all Quebec born players drafted.
Let's look at the local talent factor of other hockey crazed markets:
In Vancouver, it was touted as a good draft for BC born kids all night on TSN on Friday. Van City had 6 picks and 2 were from BC, but one of those was picked #206 overall, so a bit of a wing and a prayer.
In Cow Town where the Sutter love of local boys is well know, the Flames had 5 picks and none were from Alberta. They even picked a Swede with their first pick.
Up the QE2 Highway in the City of Champions, the Oil had 6 picks and drew one Albertan, Riley Nash, who happens to play his Junior A hockey in the BCHL (you ever heard of Camrose or Fort Saskatchewan laddy?).
In the Centre of HNIC and the Land of Cherry, TO chose 2 of their 6 picks from Ontario. Not bad.
In the nations capital, where picking from other countries is a past-time, they had 4 picks. One was from Ontario, although the kid was born in Toronto and likely has to be submerged for 10 hours in the Rideau Canal to get him reprogrammed. 2 of their 4 picks were actually from the State of Minnesota...a higher percentage than our crazy 10,000 picks.
To the truly hockey crazed state of Minnesota (I have seen hockey there first hand...it is great), where it is almost a mock draft gimme that they pick from local kids in the first round, they had 5 picks: 4 from Canada and 1 from Finland. None from the States. None from Minnesota, mainly because everyone else had picked their kids.
Strange but true.
Our lynchings at noon should be coordinated with our colleagues. We are not alone!!
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 24, 2007 22:58:42 GMT -5
More draft facts from stats.
Minnesota actually had 14 players drafted, 4 more than from the Province of Quebec.
9 different NHL teams dipped into the State for their prospective hockey talent and three teams did so more than once: Montreal (4 times), Vancouver (twice) and Ottawa (twice).
The Wild had none of those 14 chosen few.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 24, 2007 23:24:29 GMT -5
9 different NHL teams dipped into the State for their prospective hockey talent and three teams did so more than once: Montreal (4 times), Vancouver (twice) and Ottawa (twice). Gainey seems to like his Minnesota hockey players. I'm guessing that he still has a lot of connections from his time with the North Stars. Maybe Gainey's guys give him inside info on Minnesota players. Whatever the reason, the last two drafts have had some strong Minny content.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 25, 2007 0:01:04 GMT -5
Gainey seems to like his Minnesota hockey players. I'm guessing that he still has a lot of connections from his time with the North Stars. Maybe Gainey's guys give him inside info on Minnesota players. Whatever the reason, the last two drafts have had some strong Minny content. FG, it sure must have opened his eyes to the importance of scouting there for sure and keeping those contacts intact. From the last five drafts in the first round only, 12 young lads from Minnesota have been chosen. Other teams are taking notice as well: 2007 12th Ryan McDonagh (MTL) 25th Patrick White (VAN) 29th James O'Brien (OTT) 2006 1st Erik Johnson (STL) 7th Kyle Okposo (NYI) 8th Peter Mueller (PHX) 20th David Fischer (MTL) 2005 27th Joe Finley (WSH) 2004 5th Blake Wheeler (PHX) 12 AJ Thelen (MIN) 2003 17th Zach Parise (NJ) 21st Mark Stuart (BOS)
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 25, 2007 0:06:02 GMT -5
Espo's stats are ok, but I don't think his stats compare to other stars at the same age before him that came from the Q. It would be interesting to she his 18 year old stats compared to those of Lemieux, Lafontaine, Crosby, Gagne, and Lecavalier. Draft year stats: Esposito: 60 GP, 79 pts Pat LaFontaine: 70 GP, 234 pts Mario Lemieux: 70 GP, 282 pts Sidney Crosby: 62 GP, 168 pts Simon Gagne: 53 GP, 69 pts Vincent Lecavalier: 58 GP, 115 pts Denis Savard: 72 GP, 181 pts Mike Ribeiro: 67 GP, 125 pts Eric Chouinard: 68 GP, 83 pts Pierre Dagenais: 67 GP, 68 pts Pierre-Marc Bouchard: 69 GP, 140 pts Marc-Antoine Pouliot: 65 GP, 73 pts Alexandre Daigle: 53 GP, 137 pts * The list includes superstars like Lemieux, Crosby and Lecavalier, but I don't want to compare Esposito only to those players because that wouldn't be fair. So I compared his stats to non-superstar players as well.
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Post by PTH on Jun 25, 2007 1:20:12 GMT -5
Draft year stats: Esposito: 60 GP, 79 pts Pat LaFontaine: 70 GP, 234 pts Mario Lemieux: 70 GP, 282 pts Sidney Crosby: 62 GP, 168 pts Simon Gagne: 61 GP, 120 pts 30-39-69 Vincent Lecavalier: 58 GP, 115 pts This is correct. Denis Savard: 72 GP, 181 pts Mike Ribeiro: 69 GP, 167 pts 40-85-125 Eric Chouinard: 62 GP, 109 pts 41-42-83 Pierre Dagenais: 60 GP, 133 pts This is from the second time he was drafted, the first time he had... 43-25-68 Pierre-Marc Bouchard: 69 GP, 140 pts Marc-Antoine Pouliot: 70 GP, 114 pts Alexandre Daigle: 53 GP, 137 pts * I think you took the stats from the year after these guys were drafted.... I added what I believe are the correct stats for some of these guys in red. Sorry I'm too lazy to look up all of them, but I just wanted to raise a flag here that some of these numbers need to be double-checked...
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 25, 2007 2:38:07 GMT -5
I think you took the stats from the year after these guys were drafted.... I added what I believe are the correct stats for some of these guys in red. Sorry I'm too lazy to look up all of them, but I just wanted to raise a flag here that some of these numbers need to be double-checked... Thanks for catching that PTH. I've made the necessary corrections in my original post.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 25, 2007 7:34:08 GMT -5
Wow. Interesting weekend. Lots of great posts in this thread, a terrific exchange of viewpoints, and plenty of passion to boot. Props all around.
I admit I'm a bit bummed over how the 1st round unfolded (I love the McDonagh pick but thought the Habs could have moved up to #19 to grab Espo) but ultimately I want the organization to make good hockey decisions. I do believe the Habs are a franchise in Quebec and as such they shouldn't get scooped on local talent if it's available to them, but for now I'll trust their collective hockey judgement that Esposito just isn't all that good, or at least not worth sacrificing Pacioretty and a later pick.
Now it's time to turn the focus to 2007-08. Gainey still has plenty of work to do.
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Post by Skilly on Jun 25, 2007 14:06:25 GMT -5
An interesting look at the draft. Of the 211 prospects chosen, only 25 were from the Q and only 10 in total were born in Quebec: Angelo Esposito, David Perron, Kevin Marshall, Antoine Lafleur, Keven Veilleux, Maxime Macenauer, Olivier Fortier, Maxime Tanguay, Charles-Antoine Messier and Jean-Simon Allard. Of these 10, I have seen Perron play alot, one game of Esposito, and a whole pile of Jean-Simon Allard. Can't remember much of the other guys. Jean-Simon Allard has the distinction of being the first draft pick in the history of the St.John's Fog Devils. Everyone thought he was a great offensive talent, especially since he was ranked extremely high for the Q draft. His rookie season was abysmal. But he was a young man who willingly came to Newfoundland not knowing a word of English. The one one thing no one here will question is the size of this young man's heart. He got better every game, and he finished third in scoring on a team that is one of the worst in the league, last on the team in plus minis (-30). Not too shabby .... the culture shock alone would have ruin most kids. I would not be surprised to see him in the NHL one day as a serviceable player. He is no doubt a project, but he is teachable and like I said .... has great character.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 26, 2007 0:24:16 GMT -5
Skilly, talk to me this time next year. I will be a WHL fanatic now that I have two things:
1. Moved to Edmonton; and
2. The WHL and Top Prospect Game moves here next year.
I ended up seeing a lot of Junior A (AJHL) and CIS Games when I moved here after Christmas and the Oilers were tanking.
White and Maxwell will be here more often as will a whole pile of good young players for a reasonable gate charge. How good is that?
Have to do something until the NHL schedule is changed and our boys come out West far more often.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 26, 2007 17:49:49 GMT -5
I think Roy summarized it best:
...Esposito couldn't go to a better place, Pittsburgh is the pefect setup. He will have geat role models, Pittsburgh has been drafting really well in the past couple of seasons. ...It's unfortunate for the fans, a lot of them go to the Bell Center to cheer for the Canadiens, this was a good opportunity to give something back to them. From the organization's perspective, their business is to do hockey, not care about what fans may feel...
...I'm a guy from Quebec, when they drafted me, they made my day because my dream was to wear the Canadiens jersey. It's the same thing for any Québecois...
IMO that is the perfect point final to this episode.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 26, 2007 18:27:13 GMT -5
...Esposito couldn't go to a better place, Pittsburgh is the pefect setup. He will have geat role models, Pittsburgh has been drafting really well in the past couple of seasons. Let's look at where Pittsburgh's 1st rd. picks have been from 2002-2006... 2002: 5th overall - Ryan Whitney 2003: 1st overall - Marc-Andre Fleury 2004: 2nd overall - Evgeni Malkin 2005: 1st overall - Sidney Crosby 2006: 2nd overall - Jordan Staal Pretty hard to not draft well when your drafting between 1st and 5th overall all the time. For all the talk of Pittsburgh being a "winning franchise" let's not forget that they were among the bottom-feeders of the league for years before they were able to enjoy success - solely because of their high draft picks and because they lucked out on the Crosby Sweepstakes. Other than these five players, only Maxime Talbot and Erik Christensen have made the NHL out of the Penguins other picks in the same range (2002-2006). Doesn't sound like good drafting to me. Patrick of all people should know that winning is more important than anything. Winning is what keeps fans happy. He should know this better than anyone. Winning trumps all. After all when he demanded to leave Montreal, he has been on the record saying that - aside from his beef with Tremblay - he wanted out of Montreal because the team was losing it's winning touch. And Patrick shouldn't really talk of fans' feelings in Montreal. How much did he care about the fans when he demanded a trade for his own selfish reasons? What Patrick did was no different than what Chris Pronger did last summer. The only difference is that Pronger waited until the end of the season, rather than put his team at gunpoint in December. [/i][/quote] It was? Wasn't he a Nordiques fan while he was growing up?
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Post by habmeister on Jun 26, 2007 18:32:43 GMT -5
Skilly, talk to me this time next year. I will be a WHL fanatic now that I have two things: 1. Moved to Edmonton; and 2. The WHL and Top Prospect Game moves here next year. I ended up seeing a lot of Junior A (AJHL) and CIS Games when I moved here after Christmas and the Oilers were tanking. White and Maxwell will be here more often as will a whole pile of good young players for a reasonable gate charge. How good is that? Have to do something until the NHL schedule is changed and our boys come out West far more often. you'll fall in love, when i have the choice during hockey season of going to whl or nhl i choose whl every single time. looking forward to more west coast flavour on this board.
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Post by franko on Jun 26, 2007 18:33:50 GMT -5
...Esposito couldn't go to a better place, Pittsburgh is the pefect setup. He will have geat role models, Pittsburgh has been drafting really well in the past couple of seasons. Let's look at where Pittsburgh's 1st rd. picks have been from 2002-2006... 2002: 5th overall - Ryan Whitney 2003: 1st overall - Marc-Andre Fleury 2004: 2nd overall - Evgeni Malkin 2005: 1st overall - Sidney Crosby 2006: 2nd overall - Jordan Staal You aren't suggesting that we tank for the next 5 years, are you? Mind you, these past few years have looked pretty close to it.
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 26, 2007 18:41:08 GMT -5
You aren't suggesting that we tank for the next 5 years, are you? Of course I'm not suggesting that. I never would. But I'm saying for all the credit that the Penguins are getting nowadays, we should remember how they got to where they are. Remember that Pittsburgh was regularly finishing in the bottom three in the league for years. As mediocre as the Habs have been, we can't say that they've been as bad as the Pens. I'm mad about the Habs lack of success too, but comparing them to the Pens' lack of success, is stretching it IMO.
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Post by franko on Jun 26, 2007 18:47:10 GMT -5
You aren't suggesting that we tank for the next 5 years, are you? Of course I'm not suggesting that. I never would. But I'm saying for all the credit that the Penguins are getting nowadays, we should remember how they got to where they are. Remember that Pittsburgh was regularly finishing in the bottom three in the league for years. As mediocre as the Habs have been, we can't say that they've been as bad as the Pens. I'm mad about the Habs lack of success too, but comparing them to the Pens' lack of success, is stretching it IMO. I don't think anyone here would suggest tanking it, which is why I felt comfortable asking you. Sorry about the lack of smilie ;D And while we haven't been as bad as the Pens, it sure has felt like it -- especially this year when we stunk those last two games and wound up where we did -- behind the team that cannot be mentioned.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 26, 2007 20:52:07 GMT -5
As mediocre as the Habs have been, we can't say that they've been as bad as the Pens. I'm mad about the Habs lack of success too, but comparing them to the Pens' lack of success, is stretching it IMO. Pens mediocrity have a start and an end. Montreal Canadiens mediocrity so far have a start and a whole bunch of talk every summer... Just like..ahem... the Leafs. and just like for Leafs fans, it appears that, to many fans, their organization are doing no wrong. They always draft the right players, always trade the right players, always do the right moves, etc... and when no moves are made it's because it's better that way... other teams are all just lucky... ...meanwhile, character players like Recchi and Roberts would rather be with the lucky Penguins than with them great Montreal Canadiens who pick those amazing Bonk, Samsonov, Aebisher, Kovalev, Johnson, Murray, Downey, Dowd, Niniima, Traverse, Dagenais, Gorges, Leighton, Cullimore, Salminarksfjkd, Russell, Lahti, etc... With such great pickups from St-Bob, I really wonder what's taking so long to get to the cup... Reality is that Bob has purely lived off either Serge Savard's player: Koivu, Rivet. Houle's players: Markov, Ryder, Ribeiro, Souray, Bouillon. Andre Savard's player: Higgins, Plekanec, Komisarek, Zednik, Bulis, Lapierre. Anything Gainey added since taking over was, at best, minor contributors, but in majority complete wastes... and while at it he managed to turn good assets like Beauchemin, Hainsey, Hossa, Rivet and Ribeiro into nothing at all... and we're very near adding Souray to that list... This is no luck. I'm starting to agree with HA that the HABS worst decision since hiring Houle was to put aside Andre Savard...
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jun 26, 2007 23:25:55 GMT -5
...meanwhile, character players like Recchi and Roberts would rather be with the lucky Penguins than with them great Montreal Canadiens who pick those amazing Bonk, Samsonov, Aebisher, Kovalev, Johnson, Murray, Downey, Dowd, Niniima, Traverse, Dagenais, Gorges, Leighton, Cullimore, Salminarksfjkd, Russell, Lahti, etc... With such great pickups from St-Bob, I really wonder what's taking so long to get to the cup... I think the proper spelling is Salmelainen. No need to make fun of the guy's name just because it's different. Doing so is the same as when Don Cherry messes up Russian players' names on purpose. It's ignorant and it's immature. Bob also had to inherit the mistakes of Houle and Savard. That should also be considered. And you're going out of your way to name every transaction Gainey has made (even the most minor ones like Russell) just to make him look extra bad. Heck, you even included Traverse even though he hasn't played any games with the Habs under Gainey's watch. All of his games with the Habs were under Savard. While you're at it, why not mention the fact that Houle and Savard had guys like Petrov, Zholtok, Dackell, Lind, Bashkirov, Houde, Guren, Berezin, Czerkawski, Poulin, Cummins, Laflamme, Audette, McKay, etc. in their lineups? Any GM can be made to look like the league's worst GM if you try hard enough. Right now, it seems like you're trying your best with Gainey.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 27, 2007 0:05:52 GMT -5
...meanwhile, character players like Recchi and Roberts would rather be with the lucky Penguins than with them great Montreal Canadiens who pick those amazing Bonk, Samsonov, Aebisher, Kovalev, Johnson, Murray, Downey, Dowd, Niniima, Traverse, Dagenais, Gorges, Leighton, Cullimore, Salminarksfjkd, Russell, Lahti, etc... With such great pickups from St-Bob, I really wonder what's taking so long to get to the cup... I think the proper spelling is Salmelainen. No need to make fun of the guy's name just because it's different. Doing so is the same as when Don Cherry messes up Russian players' names on purpose. It's ignorant and it's immature. ...not sure why you keep singling me out on almost every post I make.... must be that new cologn... Look FG, you feel all is well and good and going according to plan. Fine. You think Gainey can do no wrong fine. Fine. You think every players Gainey traded are bad. Fine. You feel every players we did not draft are bad. Fine again. You feel every successful teams are lucky and Gainey is just plain unlucky and after 4 years on board is still suffering from errors made by Houle. OK. Let's just leave it at that and avoid the personnal attacks.
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Post by insomnius on Jun 27, 2007 6:23:42 GMT -5
Meaning no disrespect Doc, but if you are so put off why are you still a fan?
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jun 27, 2007 6:58:02 GMT -5
Meaning no disrespect Doc, but if you are so put off why are you still a fan? I've let off some steam in the days following the draft but it's as HA said, when you've been a fan for 30 years, it's tough to shake it off you genes. We missed the playoffs and haven't made one significant acquisition yet, why aren't you put off (no disprespect meant either)? Why do those who want the management to be pro-active are seen as lesser fan? Why is it that those who question a management team that brought mediocre results are seen as heretics? Why is it that when you simply outline what management told us they wanted to do, focus on local players, you create a storm?
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Post by jkr on Jun 27, 2007 7:29:37 GMT -5
Meaning no disrespect Doc, but if you are so put off why are you still a fan? I've let off some steam in the days following the draft but it's as HA said, when you've been a fan for 30 years, it's tough to shake it off you genes. We missed the playoffs and haven't made one significant acquisition yet, why aren't you put off (no disprespect meant either)? Why do those who want the management to be pro-active are seen as lesser fan? Why is it that those who question a management team that brought mediocre results are seen as heretics? Why is it that when you simply outline what management told us they wanted to do, focus on local players, you create a storm? There is another side of the coin Doc. I don't feel vocal posters are less loyal fans & I believe I posted that several days ago in this thread. In fact, I recall saying that outspoken criticism is necessary. However, just because someone is not outspoken and exhibits some patience does not mean they are satisfied. It also doesn't mean that he/she is a mindless follower that can't think for themselves.
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Post by Boston_Habs on Jun 27, 2007 7:52:16 GMT -5
Go, Doc.
Sometimes the perpertual "we're getting there" approach becomes tiresome. And sometimes you get tired of listening to all the reasons why we're still a bottom feeder playoff team and how we drafted this guy and that guy and it's all coming together, just be patient. It's not Gainey's fault and he's doing his best.
If I really thought the talent base was there that all we needed to do was sit there and watch the flowers bloom then I might be OK. But that's not the case. We're weak down the middle, we have decent depth on the wings but we haven't had a 40 goal scorer since Vinny Damphousse, and we have two All-Star calibre defensemen which will be down to one in about a week.
Yes, Gainey didn't inherit a whole lot but he hasn't done a whole lot either to put this team on a different track. The Kovalev trade was good, we need talent like that, and it was a low cost move but Kovy has been maddeningly inconsistent. The rest of his moves have been tinkering around the edges - Samsonov, Johnson, Bonk, Niinimaa, the Huet trade was great but even Gainey would tell you we lucked out on that.
Now you can come up with all kinds of counterpoints but nobody can dispute the 15 years of mediocrity we have suffered through. And if you say that Gainey can't force UFAs to play here or he needs a willing trade partner, I would say I agree, but then everyone has to agree that as Bill Parcells says, "you are what you are" - a team that isn't good enough to make the playoffs other than by the skin of its teeth.
Nobody likes it and a little venting and frustration is healthy. It shows that we care and, unlike Leaf fans, we don't delude ourselves into being better than we are.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 27, 2007 8:17:30 GMT -5
Now you can come up with all kinds of counterpoints but nobody can dispute the 15 years of mediocrity we have suffered through. And if you say that Gainey can't force UFAs to play here or he needs a willing trade partner, I would say I agree, but then everyone has to agree that as Bill Parcells says, "you are what you are" - a team that isn't good enough to make the playoffs other than by the skin of its teeth. There's a lot of frustration for sure, BH. As you say 15 years of mediocrity is unacceptable and I agree. However, Gainey has been at the helm only 3 of those 15 years. On that premise, this is turning into a, "... what have you done for me this afternoon," kind of deal. I can't buy into that mindset just yet. If nothing else, venting our frustrations is a sign we care. That hasn't changed and that's a good thing. For sure. Cheers.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Jun 27, 2007 8:52:22 GMT -5
Pens mediocrity have a start and an end. Montreal Canadiens mediocrity so far have a start and a whole bunch of talk every summer... Just like..ahem... the Leafs. and just like for Leafs fans, it appears that, to many fans, their organization are doing no wrong. They always draft the right players, always trade the right players, always do the right moves, etc... and when no moves are made it's because it's better that way... other teams are all just lucky... I don't know Doc. I honestly believe Gainey is the right guy for the job. If we start pumping GM's like coaches, conversations like this will be never-ending. And we've gone through how many coaches since Houle/Tremblay took over? And can we blame them? I mean really? Recchi was the only saving grace we had at one point and he couldn't wait to get out of Montreal. Why was that? ... and many who became someone after they left Montreal. A pattern perhaps? I disagree with this opinion entirely, Doc. I remember Savard's status here on the board. He went from being: a. The shining star or saviour of the franchise, to b. Hiring Gainey in order to keep his job (and he left Montreal to extreme criticism here on the board), and now c. Back to being one of the most valuable assets our club allowed to walk. Don't get me wrong, Doc, we were stronger with Savard than without him. He and Pierre Gauthier,did a great job by taking Ottawa from the basement to being a contender. He has a great eye for elite talent. However, what Ottawa didn't do was hire any toughness. By the draft, the rubble that was once the weakest road team in the history of the game, became the competative and respectable Ottawa Senators. That was under Savard. However, they didn't become a powerhouse until they added some toughness and discarded some heartless elite talent; see Havlat and Chara. That changed under Muckler and the team went much further. Yet, I think the Habs drafted well under Savard, but the club continued marking time, swimming in circles, what have you. So, the question beckons; why did Savard recommend Gainey to Gillette? Would he have done the same thing had the team been doing well under his direction? Just me but I don't think so. In fact, the team has made the playoffs twice in Gainey's three seasons at the helm. While I would have like to see a better result, granted, Gainey inhierited his predecessor's rubble. I feel this is the mindset that is slowly dominating and enveloping the board. It's a predictable mindset because the Habs aren't winning and when that happens there must be a scapegoat. That scapegoat is now Gainey. It's far too easy to forget the mess he inhierited and easier to forget that some of that mess was Savard's doing as well. And now he's clearing that rubble away and re-building from the foundation up. He wouldn't have had to if there were a solid foundation in place to begin with. Cheers.
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