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Post by Cranky on Oct 29, 2024 21:27:46 GMT -5
As always, you can't fire 23 players and you can't say a team became a bottom dweller after two seasons of improvement.
Tonight's game we came out running at 33 rpm and Kraken at 78 rpm. The level of preparation by the coaches was obscenely different. Night and day.
Personally, he's net an NHL coach and learning on the job. We need more and better then him.
So, any opinions on Marty and how safe do you think he is.
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Post by seventeen on Oct 29, 2024 21:37:29 GMT -5
No, Hughes is not firing MSL. As time goes along, however, and if there is no improvement in the on ice product, the questions will arise comparing Marty to Wayne Gretzky, who was too smart to be a coach. There is a difference between being a player who picks up on details during a game, adjusts and succeeds, and a coach who sees the same things, but has trouble getting that through to players. Sometimes, coaching is as simple (ha!) as having a good system that isn't too complicated, having the ability to connect with players on a personal level, having good players and putting them in positions to win. Which of these characteristics does Marty have? Or am I way off base?
He's gotten a lot of rope because expectations are low. But those are rising.
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Post by drkcloud on Oct 29, 2024 21:37:49 GMT -5
He needs to go. His talents are at the 1 to 1 level, professional development. He's not a head coach and it shows. I'm ready to give Pascal Vincent a shot with his own chosen assistants
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 29, 2024 21:55:52 GMT -5
I don't think Marty is going anywhere... and if he does he will be promoted to the level Lecavalier is at... special advisor to Hockey Ops... whatever the hell that is...
We need HuGo to do something or the season is lost again
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Post by Polarice on Oct 30, 2024 5:17:16 GMT -5
Agree with it or not Marty will play out this season and then Hugo will make a decision on what to do with him.
I think they will make that change in the summer as there will be a better crop of potential coaches out there that should be able to help the team take that next step to Cup contenders. I don't think the likes of Vincent are what the team will be looking for. They will be looking for coaches that have been to the promised land and knows how to motivate players to play to that level. They have to learn that losing sucks and learn to do whatever it takes to win.
Marty did his job well, this will be the last year for him as coach. I hope they will have a position available, that he will be interested in taking on as he deserves to be involved in the road to out 25th cup.
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Post by Tankdriver on Oct 30, 2024 10:53:16 GMT -5
I still think Joel Quenneville is what is needed but am not willing to toss Marty just yet. Everyone take a look at the standings. Everyone is still bunched together and there hasn't reallly been a dominate team outside one or two. This team needs time to gel and get better. It is why I was advocating for some experience during free agent time. Everyone in the media predicted us to finish last in our division. I am not sure why everyone has high hopes.
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Post by frozone on Oct 30, 2024 12:13:11 GMT -5
I still think Joel Quenneville is what is needed but am not willing to toss Marty just yet. Everyone take a look at the standings. Everyone is still bunched together and there hasn't reallly been a dominate team outside one or two. This team needs time to gel and get better. It is why I was advocating for some experience during free agent time. Everyone in the media predicted us to finish last in our division. I am not sure why everyone has high hopes. Thank you! We should be pointing our fingers at the front office. Outside of the Laine trade, we have done extremely little the past 2 summers. I may be alone in this, but imo Marty is not the problem. We've been singing the praises of a front office that has been taking a slow and patient approach to building this team, but then we wave our pitchforks when the team takes time to grow. We shouldn't forget that our coaching staff is extremely green and needs time to grow as well. We can't expect to just fast track everyone when there aren't enough mentors to go around. Furthermore, if Hugo gives Marty the objective of developing the young players, then we can forget about competing for the playoffs. There's a reason why they say the NHL isn't a development league. For every minute in which Marty is working one-on-one with the kids, the opponent's coach is preparing his team to pick apart the Habs. I would keep Marty as head coach, but I would give him some help for pete's sake. He can be every bit the coach that Brind'amour is, but he needs the time and support to get there. He should have at least one mentor. I mean, compare his situation to Brind'amour's. Brind'amour had the luxury of starting out as an assistant, and when he became head coach he had Dean Chynoweth and Greg Daniels by his side - two guys with some decent experience behind the bench, not to mention a veteran GM overseeing things. MSL had/has none of that. We are way behind in this rebuild. Our GM is green, our coaches are green, our defensemen are green, our goalies are green. We can't just fast track everyone. |
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Post by seventeen on Oct 30, 2024 13:33:28 GMT -5
Let's not give Marty too many excuses. He hardly has an inexperienced GM. You might be thinking of Hughes, but consider that Jeff Gorton has been a GM since 2006, and has a ton of experience building Cup contending teams.
I keep going back and forth on Marty. One on side, he's part of a disciplined rebuilding process with the second youngest team in the league, and possibly the youngest defense in the league. That's a challenge even an experienced coach would find difficult. His own inexperience with applying systems is a handicap for sure. There is hockey talent in the line-up, but there are times an experienced journeyman outplays our talented kids by applying some real world 'tricks'. Then there is the goaltending, which is hardly established. All the youth issues above would be mitigated if there was a goalie who could give you the goaltending Monty did last year. This year, not so much so far. Take last night. How is the team supposed to feel when it's down 4-0 in 10 minutes? If it's 2-0 and then Caufield scores, I suspect the energy level goes way up and we take fewer penalties, cause Seattle to take more of their own and play better 5 on 5.
So I have to keep asking myself, "is Marty doing ok with what he has?" You could probably answer that yes.
On the other hand, one keeps looking for improvement in certain areas and not seeing it. The defensive structure is a key one. It's still in what we would call the 'learning stage' so maybe it's not as bad as it looks. I, and perhaps we, question more than a few of Marty's line-up choices. That too, could be inexperience, or it could be Marty's unwillingness to upset a vet at the cost of a rookie who may not get you the same brownie points with the team as the vet. I'm not sure about that because it's a young team and how strong are the connections between the kids and the vets? David Savard, according to pundits is loved by the kids and I can see that. But Savard isn't the guy we are concerned about. Matheson on the #1 PP? that's a problem and maybe Marty has set a certain number of games before he makes the change. The PP hasn't been bad, but much of it is being carried by Cole's goal scoring, and Hutson is doing wonders for the second unit, so it's not a huge concern. Anderson - Evans - Gallagher has been a really good line for the Habs, for the expectations, but it feels like they're playing above their heads (For Jake, it's a contract year) and Evans is the guy driving that. In reality he's a 4th line centre, but not on our team. Dvorak? Yeesh. Two assists in 10 games. He should go back to composing symphonies. But he does enough defensively to satisfy Marty, and they would love for him to break out and not have to subsidize his trade. I doubt that happens.
So, all in all, HuGo's best move at this time is to remain patient and look for that sandpaper forward who won't cost much. Vancouver picked one up this summer in Keifer Sherwood from Nashville. Just a guy who is hard to play against because he is relentless and doesn't back down. Not a fighter, but never takes a night off. He's costing $1.5MM for 2 years. Not cheap, but worth every dollar. There's no quick fix that won't go against the bigger plan. We don't need Zebras (unless Verbeek gives him away). We have centres in our system.
When we set our emotions aside (Grrrrrr!!!) and look at the options, HuGo and Monty are doing all they can. Let's wait this out for a while.
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 30, 2024 13:58:04 GMT -5
The joke is we have a sandpaper guy in Pezetta, but he's riding the pine
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 30, 2024 14:24:05 GMT -5
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Post by Cranky on Oct 30, 2024 14:46:18 GMT -5
I have a super dumb question because there is no way i can be as smart as our brain trust.
There are a million little details that are NOT going to be figured out by Mailman or X or any of our players not named Hutson or Guhle. Arethere multiple coaches who take the defenseman on the side and try to teach them those details?
I wrote elsewhere about getting in position to receive a pass. That requires a fairly high level of hockey sense (or brain processor) because you need to position oneself by analyzing your opponents relative positions AND YOUR passer position and ability. All of that in ONE second. Bad decisions that i see happen dozens of times a game.
Whose teaching and correcting? Because from my experience in manufacuring, developing good practices takes a pile of time...through silly level of repetition...and patience.
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 30, 2024 15:20:35 GMT -5
I have a super dumb question because there is no way i can be as smart as our brain trust. There are a million little details that are NOT going to be figured out by Mailman or X or any of our players not named Hutson or Guhle. Arethere multiple coaches who take the defenseman on the side and try to teach them those details? I wrote elsewhere about getting in position to receive a pass. That requires a fairly high level of hockey sense (or brain processor) because you need to position oneself by analyzing your opponents relative positions AND YOUR passer position and ability. All of that in ONE second. Bad decisions that i see happen dozens of times a game. Whose teaching and correcting? Because from my experience in manufacuring, developing good practices takes a pile of time...through silly level of repetition...and patience. I miss Luke Richardson |
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Post by Skilly on Oct 30, 2024 16:21:37 GMT -5
Why is Matheson on the PP? Hmmmmmm could it be that he is the leading power play point producer on the league's 10th best power play??
Nah, can't be that, the guy is a bum! He needs to go, the PP just don't work with him there ... oh wait ...🙄
And for all the people clamouring for Hutson to be on PP1, it does not have to be done at the expensive of a player that is actually producing. #8 and #48 can both be on it
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Post by folatre on Oct 30, 2024 18:43:39 GMT -5
I am not a fan of firing coaches during the season. Only under exceptional circumstances (e.g. a talented team goes on a six game losing streak which puts them on the playoff cut line in February-March) do I see a compelling reason for doing so.
St. Louis is like a younger brother to Hughes. I think management wants him to succeed and be here longish term. However, Hughes will be a realist when the body of work is large enough to make excuses untenable. But I just do not believe St. Louis gets fired in season.
Having said that, our eyes are not lying. 1/3 of the games Montreal looks competitive; 1/3 of the games they look like a rebuilding team with positives; 1/3 of the games the Habs look like the San Jose Sharks. Last night, the defensive breakdowns were numerous and awful. On multiple goals, a Habs players (Matheson and Dvorak come to mind, though I am sure there were others) defending in the slot had his back to the shooter or playmaker. How is that consistent with shifting to 'zone' defense below the dots? Are the players just subconsciously saying eff it and resorting to whatever feels right to them?
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Post by Boston_Habs on Oct 30, 2024 19:40:07 GMT -5
I agree with those who say we need to be patient with Marty. Hughes and Gorton knew this was an unconventional choice and he would need time to grow into the job. That said, get the poor guy a proper assistant!
It’s early and the teams are bunched up. Boston was shutout at home against the Flyers and the pitchforks are already out for Jim Montgomery.
The lopsided games are a legitimate concern, though. We shouldn’t be losing by 5 goals twice in a week.
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Post by jkr on Oct 30, 2024 20:25:06 GMT -5
I still think Joel Quenneville is what is needed but am not willing to toss Marty just yet. Everyone take a look at the standings. Everyone is still bunched together and there hasn't reallly been a dominate team outside one or two. This team needs time to gel and get better. It is why I was advocating for some experience during free agent time. Everyone in the media predicted us to finish last in our division. I am not sure why everyone has high hopes. I cant see Quenneville for a couple of reasons. The obvious one is the troubles in Chicago. I know Bowman is now working but I can't see it working in Montreal. Too much scrutiny from the invasive press would just be uncomfortable for all concerned. And although he has a French surname, he was born in Windsor & I dont know if he speaks French. |
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Post by IamCanadiens on Oct 30, 2024 20:40:57 GMT -5
#8 and #48 can both be on it Whoa. That's just crazy talk. 2 offensive Dmen on the same powerplay unit! |
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Post by folatre on Oct 30, 2024 20:58:55 GMT -5
Jkr, correct, Quenneville does not speak French.
Heck, even Gerard Gallant, a Maritimer, who played his entire junior career in the Q (Sherbrooke and Verdun), does not actually speak French.
If things go off the rails and a change ultimately has to be made in the summer, Vincent would have the inside track if Laval plays sound hockey and enjoys a winning season. Otherwise, where could management turn? I certainly do not think management would dig into the old Canadien coach bucket (Vigneault, Julien, Therrien). Maybe Roy could be in the mix if the tape shows his teams consistently play with sound structure and intensity because those are the two elements clearly absent from the Habs edition 2024-25.
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Post by frozone on Oct 30, 2024 22:33:47 GMT -5
I have a super dumb question because there is no way i can be as smart as our brain trust. There are a million little details that are NOT going to be figured out by Mailman or X or any of our players not named Hutson or Guhle. Arethere multiple coaches who take the defenseman on the side and try to teach them those details? I wrote elsewhere about getting in position to receive a pass. That requires a fairly high level of hockey sense (or brain processor) because you need to position oneself by analyzing your opponents relative positions AND YOUR passer position and ability. All of that in ONE second. Bad decisions that i see happen dozens of times a game. Whose teaching and correcting? Because from my experience in manufacuring, developing good practices takes a pile of time...through silly level of repetition...and patience. Adam Nicholas is the main guy doing a lot of that teaching. From what I've seen, he's the details guy. He's trying to teach new skills and turn them into habits. There's a few videos on youtube showing the type of work that he's done with Barron, Slafkofsky, and some other prospects. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 31, 2024 0:16:11 GMT -5
Jkr, correct, Quenneville does not speak French. Heck, even Gerard Gallant, a Maritimer, who played his entire junior career in the Q (Sherbrooke and Verdun), does not actually speak French. If things go off the rails and a change ultimately has to be made in the summer, Vincent would have the inside track if Laval plays sound hockey and enjoys a winning season. Otherwise, where could management turn? I certainly do not think management would dig into the old Canadien coach bucket (Vigneault, Julien, Therrien). Maybe Roy could be in the mix if the tape shows his teams consistently play with sound structure and intensity because those are the two elements clearly absent from the Habs edition 2024-25. It's a known fact that if you say "Therrien" 3 times, a Habs player get injured for the season. Do you want to take responsibility for Suzukis knees? That's why I use the code word...MThead. Roy was considered a hot head last time we were coach hunting. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 31, 2024 12:43:59 GMT -5
Adam Nicholas is the main guy doing a lot of that teaching. From what I've seen, he's the details guy. He's trying to teach new skills and turn them into habits. There's a few videos on youtube showing the type of work that he's done with Barron, Slafkofsky, and some other prospects. I thought Nicholas was a skating coach? I'll have to check out his videos. I know MThead brought in Greene to teach defensive hockey and implement a system. We got one...the famous off-the-glass zone defense. And of course it worked because we had Jesus Price in nets. I don't think Marty can teach what he never played. We "should" have a defensive coach with hopefully a full understanding of implementing a workable system. It's a mess right now... |
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 31, 2024 14:18:31 GMT -5
Adam Nicholas is the main guy doing a lot of that teaching. From what I've seen, he's the details guy. He's trying to teach new skills and turn them into habits. There's a few videos on youtube showing the type of work that he's done with Barron, Slafkofsky, and some other prospects. I thought Nicholas was a skating coach? I'll have to check out his videos. I know MThead brought in Greene to teach defensive hockey and implement a system. We got one...the famous off-the-glass zone defense. And of course it worked because we had Jesus Price in nets. I don't think Marty can teach what he never played. We "should" have a defensive coach with hopefully a full understanding of implementing a workable system. It's a mess right now... It is why I miss Luke Richardson |
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Post by seventeen on Oct 31, 2024 14:58:07 GMT -5
We can't hold a good guy back. If the Hawks keep losing though, he may become available.  |
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 31, 2024 15:09:14 GMT -5
We can't hold a good guy back. If the Hawks keep losing though, he may become available. I hope so |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 31, 2024 17:33:46 GMT -5
This game is making extra nervous. If one of our top player gets hurt, Marty will be trash in my eyes.
SmartyMarty...better not happen...
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 31, 2024 21:23:58 GMT -5
Maybe Roy could be in the mix if the tape shows his teams consistently play with sound structure and intensity because those are the two elements clearly absent from the Habs edition 2024-25. IIRC, the narrative back then was that Patrick Roy wanted control of everything ... he wanted to be coach and GM, but Montreal wouldn't go for it ... Cheers. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 31, 2024 22:34:50 GMT -5
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Post by Cranky on Nov 1, 2024 4:09:04 GMT -5
When MThead is critical of coaching and he's right, there is something wrong with the earth's axis....
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 1, 2024 11:52:11 GMT -5
I'm so pissed I have unfollowed everything Habs in Instagram
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Post by Willie Dog on Nov 1, 2024 12:42:35 GMT -5
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