Hossa to Rangers for Garth Murray

[Cranky]

mrbozo said:

habsaddict said:

Where did this come from? Hossa for what? There better be more to this Murray kid then meet the eye otherwise Bob just tossed Hossa away.

Tossed a Hossa? Could become a euphemism for a bad trade.

Bahhh.....I hope Gainey didn't get Hoss'ed on this one.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Claude Julien is delighted by Hossa's success—a certainly talented player who too often disappointed the team's management, never mind the fans.

"He has already shown us good things in the past. But he always ended up losing it," explained the coach after the game. "This year, he has imposed himself from the very beginning of camp. He is really involved, which was not always the case. I acknowledge that he is having an excellent camp."

According to Julien, Hossa already benefits from the more rigorous application of the rules regarding obstruction and interference. At six feet two inches and 218 pounds, the skater from Ilava is difficult to contain, especially along the boards.

"He is tall and big, which gives him an advantage along the boards," puts forward Julien. "He can really use his size."

- tinyurl.com/dk7zk

*

At a certain point in the interview, Gainey realized that he had spoken about Latendresse for a good while. "We talk a lot about the decision to take in his case, but it's the same thing for Hossa. He had a very good camp too. Same thing for Perezhogin."

- tinyurl.com/7n3a3

Management speak with forked tongue.

[TheCaper]

We had 27 in camp, the rules only allow 23 on the roster, something had to give.

It’s not easy to land a 1st round draft pick, and once you’ve used a 1st round pick to select a player you have to do everything possible to ensure that you develop or get return for that asset.

The mistake they made with Hossa was sending him back to Hamilton in the fall of 03 under the guise of “he isn’t ready yet”. As soon as they sent him down, his value as an asset dropped. They should have kept him with the big team and put him on the 3rd with Juneau. The world wouldn’t have ended if they had done that, and the mere fact that he would be gaining NHL experience would have held his value higher, and we would have gotten better return for that 1st round asset.

It will be interesting to see how they handle Perezhogin and Kostitsyn. It’s easy to play the patience game with 5th round picks, but you can’t take the same approach with 1st rounders. You have to constantly evaluate these players, and you have to take the proactive approach of developing these players in the NHL – it holds their value. If you feel that a player will not develop, you have to be willing to pull the trigger when the value is still high.

Kostitsyn can start the year in the AHL, no problem there. But if they believe that he will start next year in Hamilton as well, then they need to be willing to move him for a young D-man while they still have the chance.

It would be a huge mistake to send Perezhogin to Hamilton, his value would immediately drop. If they feel he will have a future with the team, then now is the time to develop his NHL game. If they feel he will not have a future with the team, then now is still the time to develop his NHL game, his value would likely increase.

I know little about Murray. Can he provide something that a guy like Ferland couldn’t? I hope so…

[Yeti]

Pretty brutal trade.

Hossa has a nice combination of skills and size. Ryder is a living proof that it's not wise to give up on a prospect before the age of 25.

Still, I don't expect Hossa to become a first line winger... but 15-20 goals and 50 pts with some physical play is extremely valuable...

Bottom line is: it's bad assetts' management. Send Latendresse down without losing anything, send Dagenais down or lose him on waiver and keep Hossa (already more useful).

We only had two young wingers with skills and size in our organization (Hossa and Latendresse) and we trade one of them for almost nothing. Andre Savard may have been a bad negotiator (Brisebois, Rivet) but I think he was a better trader than Gainey; this is not a trade he would have made imo.

[habman]

Yeah, pretty bad trade indeed,
I agree, something had to give, and of all the young talent up front i think gainey made the right decison, but garth? That being said i still consider bob to know just a little more about this kinda thing then me so lets just hope he knows something we don't

[MC Habber]

hfto said:

Not entirely surprised IMO he would never be a consistent player and obviously Gainey did as well or he would have gotten more in return.

That's not how it should work. What Gainey gets for Hossa is determined by what others think of him, not what Gainey (who obviously knows more) thinks.

I don't know anything about Murray but it sounds like he's a much less valuable asset than Hossa which makes this a bad trade. Perhaps Gainey would have been forced to waive Hossa (or someone else)if he didn't make this trade, but if that's the case he should have anticipated the situation and traded Hossa in the summer for better value. Bad assett management, as Yeti said.

[Toronthab]

mrbozo said:

habsaddict said:

Where did this come from? Hossa for what? There better be more to this Murray kid then meet the eye otherwise Bob just tossed Hossa away.

Tossed a Hossa? Could become a euphemism for a bad trade.

Pour que causa bossa toss a Hossa?

[Habit]

This trade for me is a lot like the Price pick at the draft table. Shock, then with time and a bit of thought, makes sense.

With all the young guns in the stable, letting Hossa rot on the farm is not very good for the player. Hossa might have never got his shot this year with Higgins, Pleck's and Perez. Next year would be even more brutial with Milroy, Kots, Chip and others.

For the good of the player, he had to go. Also other boards are posting that Murray makes less than 75K in the AHL on his current contract. He makes it easy to pass thru waivers for a quick callup.

And as a side note, if Hossa was picked up on waivers by another club, Bo would be on the hook for half of is salary: 292K.

[Habit]

www.canadiens.com/eng/news/redirect.cfm?sectionID=habsNewsDetails.cfm&newsItemID=4391

Canadiens acquire Garth Murray in swap with Rangers
Club sends Marcel Hossa to New York in return
(09/30/2005)

Murray, who just turned 23, is always ready to get his nose dirty.
PRESS RELEASE

MONTREAL – Canadiens GM Bob Gainey announced Friday the acquisition of forward Garth Murray from the New York Rangers, in return for left-winger Marcel Hossa. Murray will immediately join the Hamilton Bulldogs, the Canadiens' American Hockey League farm team.

Murray, a left-handed centreman, was born on September 17, 1982, in Regina, Saskatchewan. The 6’02’’, 213-pounder was chosen in the third round (79th overall) by the New York Rangers in the 2001 Entry Draft.

In 2004-05, Murray played 55 games with the Hartford Wolf Pack, the Rangers farm team. He registered 4 goals and 5 assists while totalling 182 penalty minutes. He added one goal in five playoff games.

In his 20 NHL games with the Rangers, all in 2003-04, Murray had one goal and 24 penalty minutes. He was held off the score sheet in his two preseason games with the Rangers this year.

At the Junior level, Murray was a member of the Regina Pats of the Western Hockey League for five seasons, between 1997 and 2002, where he recorded 155 points, including 78 goals in 266 games. He had his best campaign in 2001-02, with 33 goals and 30 assists in 62 games. In his five years with the Pats, Murray totaled 595 penalty minutes.

Hossa, 23, played in 59 games with the Canadiens between 2001 and 2004, scoring 10 goals and nine assists. His best year in Montreal was in 2002-03, when he collected 6 goals and 7 assists in 34 games.

[Forum Ghost]

There's two ways of looking at this deal... either it was a bad trade, or Hossa's value is at an all-time low.

For those of you crying that this was a horrible deal, consider the latter. Marcel Hossa has been bounced up and down and has had questions about his intensity, consistency, etc. ever since the Habs drafted him. Not to mention the pressure of being the brother of NHL superstar Marian Hossa. Put simply, Hossa was a marginal prospect who we expected big things from just because he is a former first round pick. I mean this is a guy who couldn't even play consistently and/or put up big numbers in the AHL.

Remember that he was one of the players offered to the Rangers for Kovalev and New York chose Balej instead.

I think that Garth Murray is what Hossa's value is right now. I mean, were we expecting Gainey to trade Hossa for a Marcel Hossa from another team? A similar player? That move wouldn't make too much sense either because the main reason for the trade was to clear up the logjam at forward. Gainey had to get either a draft pick or an AHLer in return. The only think I'm disappointed about is that he didn't get a defenceman prospect or a draft pick.

But as for the return on Hossa (Garth Murray), we have to remember that, as Hab fans, we probably think of Hossa a bit higher than others around the league. For a player who couldn't crack the Habs even when they were a weak team, what should we have expected as a return?

[ForgottenRebel]

We have players in pleks, perezhogin, higgins that can score the 15-20 goals... what we don't have and what we lack is grit ..... murray is another guy who provides that.... i think our team has more then enough skilled players...... gainey is addressing our other needs

[MC Habber]

Hossa is a young player with a lot of potential and decent NHL stats through 59 career games who had a strong camp and looks like he might be ready to be a solid NHLer this season. Murray is a big questionmark to me but I'm not enthused by what I've read so far. "Must work extra hard just to maintain a spot in the NHL because of a lack of natural talent." I don't want to judge him based on a single report but that doesn't sound good.

[Ryan]

Wow, certainly a lot of love for a guy who might have played on our third line this year. A guy who just as likely would have been lost on waivers later this season for absolutely nothing.

Can someone please throw out the name of a player that we should have traded Hossa for? And no HA, I won't except Iginla as an answer

Plekanec, Hossa, Latendresse, Higgins, Kostitsyn, Perezhogin...I think we can all agree these guys are slated to be playing in Montreal by the end of next season. Who would you have traded?

[SiR]

ryan said:

Can someone please throw out the name of a player that we should have traded Hossa for? And no HA, I won't except Iginla as an answer

It's not so much that we didn't get Iginla or Crosby for him, but I think the trade could have been made better by acquiring a good defence prospect. But as was just mentioned, maybe Bob is trying to add a bit more grit to the depth chart while freeing up the space upfront for others.

[PTH]

habit said:

.....
And as a side note, if Hossa was picked up on waivers by another club, Bo would be on the hook for half of is salary: 292K.

I don't see why people are so shocked at this trade.

Gainey obviously decided that Hossa wasn't making the team this year, and between losing him on waivers while paying half his salary, and trading him for a youngish AHLer with grit (the type of player we lack in the organisation), he chose option #2.

A lot of teams would be interested in taking him at 292K, if only as cheap "filler". I think that waivers will become much trickier because of this rule. Smart GMs will be able to pay half minimum salary (and the same amount added to the cap) through smart waiver acquisitions.

With plenty of kids around, even in a year or two odds are that there wouldn't be room for Marcel, and while you can never be sure about these things, the small chance that we could give him a shot in the bigs wasn't worth the high probability of paying 292K for nothing, and not getting at least a serviceable AHLer, who could be a 4th line center in a year (and having cheap internal solutions is important, in a cap world, when you might want to be able to go for cheaper options a summer when things seem too tight).

[PTH]

sir said:

It's not so much that we didn't get Iginla or Crosby for him, but I think the trade could have been made better by acquiring a good defence prospect. But as was just mentioned, maybe Bob is trying to add a bit more grit to the depth chart while freeing up the space upfront for others.

Well, we already have Hainsey who's essentially Hossa's twin, but on D. Here we got someone who's not a waiver liability, which is a big plus, and to me compensates for his lack of upside compared to Marcel.

[Habfaith]

While Hab fans probably think Hossa's value is higher than anyone else does, that doesn't diminish the fact that Gainey appears to have just tossed away an asset.

This isn't a huge deal; a lot of people here weren't sold on Hossa, myself included. But the fact remains he was seriously challenging for a spot on the 3rd line and having a great camp. That makes him worth some sort of return. If not, that doesn't say much for our forwards.

I would've rather seen us get a draft pick than a plugger with no offensive upside.....

[MC Habber]

pth said:

Gainey obviously decided that Hossa wasn't making the team this year

But by all accounts, Hossa had a very strong camp. If that wasn't good enough to make the team then he should have been traded before camp. Of course, if Hossa had been traded for someone younger and Plekanec and Perez had had lousy camps it would have backfired....

You make a good point about Murray's being able to clear waivers, but will he really better than the guys we already have who can do that?

[Skilly]

Well I knew a trade was coming, but it shocks me that it is Hossa. Do we have anybody that showed as much chemistry with Bonk as Hossa did? I don't think so. This trade to me means that our third line is now Higgins-Bonk-Latendresse or the BLaH line.

I would have prefered to see a trade involving Bulis, Sundstrom or Dagenais.

So the only question left now is which of Dagenais or Perezhogin gets voted off the island? Will the second line left winger please elevate his game and show us what you got??

*shaking head* Would have loved to see Latendresse on the second line and Hossa and Bonk play a full year together ...... *sigh*

Does he have another trade in him for a d-man or a back-up goalie?

[PTH]

machabby said:

pth said:

Gainey obviously decided that Hossa wasn't making the team this year

But by all accounts, Hossa had a very strong camp. If that wasn't good enough to make the team then he should have been traded before camp. Of course, if Hossa had been traded for someone younger and Plekanec and Perez had had lousy camps it would have backfired....

Exactly. Hossa had a strong camp, but the other contenders obviously had stronger ones. But you couldn't be sure that they'd be that good until this point in camp.

[PTH]

skilly said:

Well I knew a trade was coming, but it shocks me that it is Hossa. Do we have anybody that showed as much chemistry with Bonk as Hossa did? I don't think so. This trade to me means that our third line is now Higgins-Bonk-Latendresse or the BLaH line.

I doubt we'll see 2 rookies on the 3d line... the checking line can't afford 2 kids who will inevitably make mistakes.

I expect we'll see Sundstrom on the 3d line RW slot.
Latendresse either beats out Zhogin and Dagenais, or gets sent down.

Does he have another trade in him for a d-man or a back-up goalie?

I doubt it.

[Skilly]

pth said:

I doubt we'll see 2 rookies on the 3d line... the checking line can't afford 2 kids who will inevitably make mistakes.

I expect we'll see Sundstrom on the 3d line RW slot.
Latendresse either beats out Zhogin and Dagenais, or gets sent down.

Last season our second line basically had three rookies for opening day.

Dags 60 games
Ribs 116 games (but never a full season)
Ryder 0 games

[SchoonerGuy]

I don't like this trade one bit. At least Hossa has upside. Murray's not even an impact AHL player.

Hossa got more points in NHL preseason than Murray will get in an entire AHL season this year in Hamilton.

[Habs_fan_in_LA]

mrbozo said:

A more upbeat appraisal of the new Hab:

SCOUTING REPORT

A fierce competitor … Solid player who plays hard and goes to the net … Plays in the tough/traffic areas … Has a hard-working, physical style … Character player with size, strength and toughness … Uses his body to protect the puck, finish checks and get body position … Beats people with his size and strength … A good playmaker who is always looking to set up a linemate … An opportunistic scorer who is always around the opponent's net looking for rebounds and deflections … A tireless worker and excellent competitor who plays with a very energetic style.

- www.newyorkrangers.com/team/playerinfo.asp?playerid=153

Fierce competitor, hard worker, energetic, tireless, finish checks................. You know he's not talking about Hossa. We know what Bo likes and it's not waiting for talented underachievers.

[NWTHabsFan]

Well, I agree about the comparison to the Price pick that one poster compared this to...I felt, at first some real shock, and then some real reflection and understanding.

One, Marcel scored half of his total NHL goals in his first 4 games. He then matched that total in a bunch of uninspired games over a number of uninspired seasons.

Two, the logjam at forward this camp meant some real contenders were going home. Was Hossa in a complete sense better in the long term that Higgins (Mr Defense, hustle, and good wheels, and some untapped offensive upside), Plekanec (Mr Versatile and leader of the Dogs the last two seasons...including not running to Sweden last season in a pout), Dagenais (slow of foot, pretty sucky in one's own end, but what a blistering shot that accumulated 50% more NHL goals in one weird season than our Slovakian enigmatic prospect over his short NHL career to date), Perezhogin (better upside...in so many ways except size, but I could not endorse losing him without big returns), and Latendresse (only 18, and already better rounded and with much more moxy for Gainey to drool over)??

Three, trades these days have rendered no returns. Friesen for a conditional, Roenick for a late rounder, etc. We were not going to get anything at this time for Marcel.

Four, if Hossa did his usual peformance and went to sleep after 5-10 games, then he would risk being lost on waivers for diddly. We at least rendered some return.

Five, Murray is not that bad. He made the Cdn junior team in 2002 (three years ago only) with studs like Bouwmeester, Spezza, Ott, Upshall, Nash, etc as their energy guy. There is always a place for players like that. They protect your smaller skilled guys. Hmmm, wouldn't that complement the Habs recent selection of forwards a bit and provide a bit of balance? Methinkso.

IMHO...and that is all it is worth...I don't give this a thumbs down wholeheartedly. I look at the circumstances, and feel that Gainey went for best return in the current market. Also, I think this was more about endorsement of Plekanec, Higgins and Perezhogin with the Habs long term moreso than Latendresse short term, because each of the three former have more complete packages that has likely attracted management's attention enough to warrant one small vote off the island.

And for all those suddenly nostalgic about a prospect that we all maligned a day ago and now all adore....that is why drafting oodles of forwards as BPA may eventually render you a contender. It takes baby steps, and not every draft pick will stick, for a number of different reasons. But sometimes they are just trade bait to balance off the team. Sure, the immediate need is a top 2 Dman, but Hossa wasn't going to get us that this week.

On another note, sorry to see Marcel go. I was personally cheering for him and really liked his great start with Mora in the SEL last year. This preason was also promising, but I guess management has seen this false start before.

Like others, I wondered why he has a stagnant last two thirds of the season every season to date, like we all witnessed in both Montreal and Hamilton and last year in Sweden. Oh well, others who watch this much more closely than all of us combined, all came to the same conclusion in spades. It ain't a sprint, it's a marathon, Marcel.

Sorry for the length.

[FormerLurker]

I don't know why so many are dissing this trade.

Gainey and Julien have seen enough of Hossa, in the past and at this year's camp, and enough of our other kids, to know that Hossa wasn't going to be part of our 23 man roster. They could have made space for him by sending Perezhogin (or Higgins) and Latendresse down, but Gainey has made it clear that the roster will be decided based on merit and not contracts and waiver status.

So Gainey is true to his word, again. Hossa wasn't going to make the team. Why lose him for nothing? Before camp, many people thought that Hossa's trade value was nil, and instead Gainey got a young character and grit guy that will lead in Hamilton or provide depth on the 4th line in the bigs.

It's easy to say that Gainey should have got a defenseman, but there wasn't a bidding war for Hossa's services. Gainey took the best that he could get, a guy that provides a dimension that few others in the organisation possess.

Hossa hasn't been worth more than a Garth Murray at any time during Gainey's tenure, and it's quite possible that he never will be either. Good asset management in my opinion, not bad.

I like the deal.

[warsawyak]

Horrible, horrible trade.

Why give up Marcello for nothing?

It will haunt us for years and it immediately gave me a headache.

Pretty dumb move. Arghhhh!

[NWTHabsFan]

formerlurker said:

I don't know why so many are dissing this trade.

Gainey and Julien have seen enough of Hossa, in the past and at this year's camp, and enough of our other kids, to know that Hossa wasn't going to be part of our 23 man roster. They could have made space for him by sending Perezhogin (or Higgins) and Latendresse down, but Gainey has made it clear that the roster will be decided based on merit and not contracts and waiver status.

So Gainey is true to his word, again. Hossa wasn't going to make the team. Why lose him for nothing? Before camp, many people thought that Hossa's trade value was nil, and instead Gainey got a young character and grit guy that will lead in Hamilton or provide depth on the 4th line in the bigs.

It's easy to say that Gainey should have got a defenseman, but there wasn't a bidding war for Hossa's services. Gainey took the best that he could get, a guy that provides a dimension that few others in the organisation possess.

Hossa hasn't been worth more than a Garth Murray at any time during Gainey's tenure, and it's quite possible that he never will be either. Good asset management in my opinion, not bad.

I like the deal.

Great recap, agree wholeheartedly. Can you please do something about the snow on my deck please?

[seventeen]

nwthabsfan said:

.... trades these days have rendered no returns. Friesen for a conditional, Roenick for a late rounder, etc. We were not going to get anything at this time for Marcel.


......Murray is not that bad. He made the Cdn junior team in 2002 (three years ago only) with studs like Bouwmeester, Spezza, Ott, Upshall, Nash, etc as their energy guy. There is always a place for players like that.

..... Also, I think this was more about endorsement of Plekanec, Higgins and Perezhogin with the Habs long term moreso than Latendresse short term, because each of the three former have more complete packages that has likely attracted management's attention enough to warrant one small vote off the island.

I think you nailed the reasons, NWT. My first reaction was....who? I recall Garth Murray from his WJC days....being selected as a penalty killer and energy guy. Good skater. Like Lamoriello, who hasn't lost it all in the last year, Gainey decided to make an early move to give himself a path out of the corner into which he was being painted by Latendresse. If you posed your question to me...."which of our young guys would you give up if you had to", I'd have chosen Hossa, after some serious thought. Probably for character reasons. Also, he doesn't have his brother's talent and likely never will. I wasn't overly optimistic, but his performance so far was looking good. He does have that history of fading, though. Could be a salary dump, period, but it isn't a decision that's going to make or break the team.

[NWTHabsFan]

seventeen said:

I think you nailed the reasons, NWT. My first reaction was....who? I recall Garth Murray from his WJC days....being selected as a penalty killer and energy guy. Good skater. Like Lamoriello, who hasn't lost it all in the last year, Gainey decided to make an early move to give himself a path out of the corner into which he was being painted by Latendresse. If you posed your question to me...."which of our young guys would you give up if you had to", I'd have chosen Hossa, after some serious thought. Probably for character reasons. Also, he doesn't have his brother's talent and likely never will. I wasn't overly optimistic, but his performance so far was looking good. He does have that history of fading, though. Could be a salary dump, period, but it isn't a decision that's going to make or break the team.

Best return without hurting the club long term. I think Gainey achieved that. Our "potential" return on Hossa just ain't what is used to be with 29 other GM's, and that is usually hard on keyboard GM's. LOL!! Folks should get used to a similar fate for Hainsey if Streit ever wakes up and takes advantage of this same situation.