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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 1, 2005 12:43:12 GMT -5
The truth is, no team can operate purely on a meritocracy, never could, and most certainly can't now in a cap world. I wasn't a huge Hossa fan, but unless they saw something in Murray that nobody else saw, it seems like poor asset management to me... I agree about meritocracy. Like bang-per-puck it makes for cool internet buzzword but don't always apply in reality. Julien, like any coach, has player he likes and some that he doesn't. The organization needs to cut players and obviously Julien has a big word to say in this. My bet is, Hossa's name came up pretty quickly when Claude was asked who should be cut from his ideal team and Gainey probably didn't believe in Marcel enough to impose him on Julien in an effort to maybe, perhaps get a bit better trade value down the line. Julien was gonna cut Hossa and Hossa wasn't gonna clear waiver meaning that the HABS would have been on the hook for 300K and end up with nothing. With this trade, they improve the farm and save some money. Not great but when Friesen goes for a conditional pick, Hossa could go for Murray... |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 1, 2005 12:53:21 GMT -5
The truth is, no team can operate purely on a meritocracy, never could, and most certainly can't now in a cap world. I wasn't a huge Hossa fan, but unless they saw something in Murray that nobody else saw, it seems like poor asset management to me... I agree about meritocracy. Like bang-per-puck it makes for cool internet buzzword but don't always apply in reality. In this case Habs mangement most assuredly thinks that someone other than Hossa (not necessarily Murray) will provide better bang-per-buck (which is, after all, what we all strive for).  The money from Hossa's salary can now be applied toward Latendresse's contract (which he has yet to be offered). |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 1, 2005 13:15:09 GMT -5
The money from Hossa's salary can now be applied toward Latendresse's contract (which he has yet to be offered). Absolutely. |
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Post by drkcloud on Oct 1, 2005 13:19:54 GMT -5
Pretty brutal trade. Bottom line is: it's bad assetts' management. Send Latendresse down without losing anything, send Dagenais down or lose him on waiver and keep Hossa (already more useful). You nailed it. We gave up a depth player who was just beginning to show some upside for virtually nothing. Even a pick would have been better. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Oct 1, 2005 13:33:54 GMT -5
Pretty brutal trade. Bottom line is: it's bad assetts' management. You could say poor asset management, but it doesn't help when Marcel is not that strong of an asset to begin with. Actually, if the Habs kept Hossa on the team and then tried to send him down to Hamilton later in the season, he would most likely have been picked up on waivers and then you could say that the Habs lost him for nothing. And I don't agree that he just started to show upside, because Marcel Hossa has been showing this same kind of upside for years. It's almost become a routine for him. Have one really good game, get everyone's hopes up and then fade back into AHL status. He's been teasing us like this ever since he got drafted so how much longer were we going to wait? I also don't see how Gainey got "nothing" in the deal. With yesterday's trade, the Habs gave up Hossa (an AHL player) for another AHL player. They got something for him and saved money at the same time. For all those fans who say that the Habs got nothing in the trade, what do you guys think Marcel Hossa should've fetched? Funny how all of a sudden there's a love-fest for a guy who most people didn't even have pencilled in for the starting roster anyway. Reminds me a lot about the reaction to the trade of that Chris Dyment fella. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Oct 1, 2005 13:50:44 GMT -5
Hossa is a young player with a lot of potential and decent NHL stats through 59 career games. Through 59 NHL games Marcel Hossa has 19 pts. Pro-rated over 82 games, that translates to Hossa having a 26 point season. Hardly what one would call decent NHL stats. And let's not forget that the 59 NHL games that he has played were spread out over three seasons. Which paints a picture about the kind of up-and-down career that he's had. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Oct 1, 2005 13:56:21 GMT -5
It is unfair to say Gainey traded Hossa for nothing. What he did do was trade a player that would not have made the team for a guy that could be an asset in a totally different role.
Murray may become a defensive fourth line player that is fiesty and plays hard every night. Not exactly the first line 35 goal scorer people had hoped Hossa would have been, but Hossa was given ample chances to earn a spot and obviously did not do it.
Murray may not become a Zednick or Ryder, but he may become a Bulis or Begin, which are just as important to a winning team.
Hossa may become his brother or another Eric Chinouard, but his time with the Habs was up.
Good trade Bob.
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Post by jkr on Oct 1, 2005 14:09:50 GMT -5
Pretty brutal trade. You nailed it. We gave up a depth player who was just beginning to show some upside for virtually nothing. Even a pick would have been better. What exactly was he showing? A couple of good exhibition games. This is nothing more than Hossa has shown in the past. If he does well in New York then good for him. But don't hold your breath. |
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Post by drkcloud on Oct 1, 2005 14:58:17 GMT -5
[
What exactly was he showing? A couple of good exhibition games. This is nothing more than Hossa has shown in the past.
If he does well in New York then good for him. But don't hold your breath. [/quote]
He was beginning to show that he just might "get it". By that I mean the type of energy and hard work it takes each shift to stay with the big club. He'll get 20 goals in NY. If not, and i am way off base, then i can live with this deal but i truly think this is his year.
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Post by HabbaDasher on Oct 1, 2005 15:12:24 GMT -5
I'll reserve judgement 'til I see Murray play. From some of the descriptions we've read, he could good be an excellent 4th liner; the kind of sandpaper every team needs.
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 1, 2005 15:21:33 GMT -5
Hossa is a young player with a lot of potential and decent NHL stats through 59 career games. Through 59 NHL games Marcel Hossa has 19 pts. Pro-rated over 82 games, that translates to Hossa having a 26 point season. Hardly what one would call decent NHL stats. And let's not forget that the 59 NHL games that he has played were spread out over three seasons. Which paints a picture about the kind of up-and-down career that he's had. ---------------------------GP G A Pts +/- PIM Shots Sh% Hossa's first 59 NHL games : 59 10 9 19 +2 .. 24 90 11.11 Ribeiro's first 64 NHL games: 64 9 11 20 -17 16 69 13.04 Granted Ribs was younger, but I do call Hossa's stats decent. Lots of players have rockier starts than he did. BTW, Ribs' first 59 games were also spread over 3 seasons. |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 1, 2005 15:28:22 GMT -5
A lot of the reaction here reminds me of the Balej trade.... people hated that one too, but it's worked out very well for us. Murray is a guy who in 2002 was a part of Canada's WJC team; a guy who played in the Prospects Game, a guy who played great defense and was Captain of his junior team, Regina. Hossa was a guy who looked flashy and talented for five games and then disappeared for twenty - the ultimate frustrating player. He had 80% of the talent of his brother and 10% of the heart. I won't miss him one bit. An hfboards.com user's scouting report (he watched Murray play in Regina often): The comments in the quote about Murray's speed are interesting. BC posted comments he heard from Rangers personnel on the Team 990 in which they stated the Murray was a slow skater. Either they are lousy scouts or they are trying to talk up the Ranger side of this deal. Or maybe the guy at HF is being too generous. |
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Post by jkr on Oct 1, 2005 15:53:32 GMT -5
What I saw is the same old Hossa promise that he shows in his first few games every year.
As the saying goes we will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Rhiessan on Oct 1, 2005 16:12:26 GMT -5
I'm in the "doesn't have a problem with this trade" group. If it wasn't for his brother he would of been tossed long ago IMO, I mean seriously if he couldn't crack the weaker rosters we have employed for the previous two seasons why would you suddenly think he suddenly gets it now with our strongest? He has had his chances in spades and i for one am not into wasting other blue chippers time for him any longer. Hey good luck to him in NY and if he proves Bob and the rest of us nay sayers wrong then so be it but I have a pretty good feeling that we'll survive and survive well at that. Just want to mention that I come off sounding like i didn't like the guy, but i did. He excited the hell outa me....3 years ago. At the same time though Latty makes that excitement look like puppy love in comparision  |
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Post by M. Beaux-Eaux on Oct 1, 2005 16:21:15 GMT -5
Mmmm...Latté...
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Post by Habit on Oct 1, 2005 16:57:05 GMT -5
Some reatctions of Rangers fans:
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Post by blny on Oct 1, 2005 17:01:39 GMT -5
I was somewhat surprised when I saw this deal come across the screen. I think it's easy to have that fear that Hossa will now finally pan out seeing as he is gone. Can that happen? Yes, but it's not like he never had the chance in Montreal. I have no problem moving an asset that fails to deliver.
What did we get? A character kid. Not only is he considered a strong defensive player and hard worker, but he does it with speed. That shouldn't be overlooked. In the new NHL defensive players that can skate will be crucial. Could BG have gotten more? Hard to say. There have been much more established players traded for less of late. We got a warm body, with the game to fill roles that are needed to win in the playoffs.
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Post by spotter on Oct 1, 2005 17:20:30 GMT -5
Like many here, I was hoping Hossa would break out and earn himself a spot on the roster. However, considering his performance chart, imo, he was the most expendible player between Pleckanic, Higgins and Perezhogin. There must be some concerns surrounding Perezhogin if he is sent to Hamilton given his year long suspension and any lingering affects it may have on his play. Because Pleckanic and Higgins have earned a long consideration for the "Big Club", Hossa had to go. We have no way of knowing what the team dynamic has been with Hossa. There may be underlying issues that just will not go away given all the chances he has had in the past. Besides, Hossa did not play in Hamilton last year when he was presumably under contract to do so. Perhaps he had reasons for not wanting to play in Hamilton which placed management in an awkward situation when it came to making the final cuts. Who knows? I think Gainey made a tough decision in this instance and that's why he is paid the big bucks to manage the team. OFF TOPIC: Someone in this thread mentioned the clause in Streit's contract that he must play 30 games in the NHL. Just to clarify, this is not Streit's doing, but is the result of the IIHF-NHL Player Transfer agreement. It states: The agreement includes additional fees of between 50.000 USD and 150.000 USD to be payed to the European IIHF-clubs for signed players who are not on NHL roster for 30 games or more in the 2005-2006-season and the same fees for players signed next year who are not on NHL-roster for that amount of games in the 2006-2007-season.Source: www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20050817160046iihfnhlplayertransferagreement |
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Post by Skilly on Oct 1, 2005 18:38:24 GMT -5
I have visions of him shining on a line with Jagr. Gainey was the guy who traded away Iginla remember .... I just hope that this doesn't screw up Bonk. Hossa and Bonk were shining, now Bonk has to get used to someone else and probably someone with less offensive talent as Hossa. What has Jagr been able to do for anyone else on the Rangers? With the clutch and grab that Jagr complained continously about and would not play through .... well nothing .... but in a clutch and grab free NHL? Well he shined in Europe under similar crackdowns, the new NHL will benefit Jagr immensely ..... I see Jagr and Hossa on the PP together. |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 2, 2005 0:45:11 GMT -5
What has Jagr been able to do for anyone else on the Rangers? With the clutch and grab that Jagr complained continously about and would not play through .... well nothing .... but in a clutch and grab free NHL? Well he shined in Europe under similar crackdowns, the new NHL will benefit Jagr immensely ..... I see Jagr and Hossa on the PP together. I've got Jagr in my pool  .... sombody else picked Hossa early on thinking it was Marian. ;D ;D |
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Post by Douper on Oct 2, 2005 7:16:45 GMT -5
Hossa scored last night for the Rangers...the funnier part is this:
Hossa from Rusinski
next goal they scored?
Ward Unnassisted
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Post by jkr on Oct 2, 2005 7:26:56 GMT -5
Hossa scored last night for the Rangers...the funnier part is this: Hossa from Rusinski next goal they scored? Ward Unnassisted I also heard Hossa scored but TSN has it different. Who's right. In any case the Rangers lost. Game recap below. Link |
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Post by Skilly on Oct 2, 2005 9:42:01 GMT -5
NHL.com has :
Hossa (Ruchinsky, Rucchin)
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Post by Habit on Oct 2, 2005 11:12:21 GMT -5
Should we move this over to the Trade section?
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 2, 2005 11:50:29 GMT -5
This sounds like Ranger people talking up their end of the trade. The teams making the deal are always going to rationalize it. In another post ( I think it was FL) there is a link that points out that Murray finished 2nd in the CHL skills competition for fastest skater. Lets see how things turn out on the ice before taking the word of a somewhat biased opinion. Actually, Pete Mahavolich is a scout for the Atlanta Thrashers. He kept mentioning how they had one Hossa, and they wouldn't have minded getting the other. As for the speed thing, everyone agrees that its Murray's weakest asset. The skills competition results mean nothing, as I believe Raitis Ivanans finished second in Hamilton in that, and Turner Stevenson used to routinely win the Habs competition, as did Donald Brashear. Doing laps around a rink quickly is totally different from being a "fast hockey player." If it wasn't, Gaetan Boucher would be in the Hall of Fame. And that was a couple of severe abdominal injuries ago. As for Hossa, I'm not sure what people meant by "years of great starts." He's barely 24. Last year there was a lockout, and he seems to have done okay playing in Sweden. So the last time he teased Hab fans with a great start he was 22. |
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Post by jkr on Oct 2, 2005 13:52:15 GMT -5
[quote author=badcompany board=Trades thread=1128110870 post=1128271829
Who do you mean by everyone?
I think by great starts people were referring to his training camps and call ups. The last time he was up with Montreal was 2003/04. He played 15 games and scored two points and at that time he would have been 22 or 23.
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 2, 2005 14:20:36 GMT -5
I think by great starts people were referring to his training camps and call ups. The last time he was up with Montreal was 2003/04. He played 15 games and scored two points and at that time he would have been 22 or 23. Actually, Hossa's still only 23 (for 10 more days), so he would have only been 21 turning 22 (as TSN says he was sent down on 24-Nov-03). |
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Post by MC Habber on Oct 2, 2005 14:47:56 GMT -5
Through 59 NHL games Marcel Hossa has 19 pts. Pro-rated over 82 games, that translates to Hossa having a 26 point season. Hardly what one would call decent NHL stats. And let's not forget that the 59 NHL games that he has played were spread out over three seasons. Which paints a picture about the kind of up-and-down career that he's had. ---------------------------GP G A Pts +/- PIM Shots Sh% Hossa's first 59 NHL games : 59 10 9 19 +2 .. 24 90 11.11 Ribeiro's first 64 NHL games: 64 9 11 20 -17 16 69 13.04 Granted Ribs was younger, but I do call Hossa's stats decent. Lots of players have rockier starts than he did. BTW, Ribs' first 59 games were also spread over 3 seasons. Actually, Ribs and Hossa were the same age during their first seasons. The beginnings of a few other failed careers: -------------------GP G A Pts +/- PIM Shots Sh% Brendan Shanahan: 65 7 19 26 -20 131 72 9.72 Ryan Smyth: ------ 51 2 9 11 -11 28 67 2.99 Markus Naslund: --- 71 4 7 11 -3 27 80 5.00 Hossa has more goals than any of those guys, the only positive +/-, the best PPG after Shanahan and the most shots and shots per game. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Oct 2, 2005 15:51:23 GMT -5
In the cases of Shanahan and Smyth, the stats are a tad bit misleading... Brendan Shanahan: 65 7 19 26 -20 131 72 9.72 These are Shanahan's stats as a 19 year old. If you look at his next year in the league (as a 20 year old) he scored 22 goals and had 50 pts... as a 21 year old he had 30 goals and 72 pts.... in the following four seasons he had seasons of 29, 33, 51 and 52 goals, respectively. In other words, he was a 51 goal scorer at the age of 24. Ryan Smyth was a 39 goal scorer at the age of 22. Naslund is your prototypical late bloomer. He didn't enjoy real success in the NHL until he was 24. |
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Post by drkcloud on Oct 2, 2005 16:34:03 GMT -5
Watching the Rangers and Devils. Hossa has been the best player on the ice in the 1st period. Ward has played veryhigh energy and has thrown a couple of good hits.
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.... sombody else picked Hossa early on thinking it was Marian. ;D ;D
