Habs After Peter Forsberg

[Skilly]

hfto said:

As badly as I'd like to see them win I'm realistically hoping to see at very least a first round playoff victory and ultimately two to show real progress,.

This is the argument I hear alot on here, that I don't quite get. We don't have the team to win, but let's show progress. It's almost as if people are saying "its a slow progression to building a champion, so let's take baby steps".

Those days are over. We are in the age of parity, and in this age ... every season is go-for-it season. The smart GM realizes when his team has a shot. I can't remember the last Stanley Cup champion to win a first round, the progress the next year a bit further, and so on until they won the Cup.

Year	Cup Winner	Result previous year	Finalist	Result previous year
2000	New Jersey	Lost in Round 1	Dallas	won Cup
2001	Colorado	Lost in Round 3	New Jersey	won Cup
2002	Detroit	Lost in Round 1	Carolina	Lost in Round 1
2003	New Jersey	Lost in Round 1	Aanaheim	missed playoffs
2004	Tampa	Lost in Round 2	Calgary	missed playoffs
2006	Carolina	missed playoffs (2004)	Edmonton	missed playoffs (2004)

Seems to me that teams either lose in round one or go straight to the Cup final.

Tampa Bay was out of the playoffs one year, lost in round two the next, then won the Cup. That's the closest to our progression. But for all these team the fall was fall.

Dallas is probably the last team to have a slow progression to the Cup (and we have Gainey no so that is apt). They missed the playoffs in 96, lost in round 1 in 97, lost in round three in 98, won the Cup in 99. However, within 2 years they had once again missed the playoffs entirely. The fall for these teams is just as quick as the rise.

The team we'd really like to emulate is the Avalanche ... from 1996 to 2002, they made it to round 3 or beyond 6 out of the 7 years. But I think those days of staying on top are gone ...

I don't think there is anymore "building a champion" ... I think it is more "realizing your shot".

[seventeen]

A trade for Forsberg is definitely rolling the dice, with several snakes ready to have you slide down the board. But....but....but....there's that not so tiny chance that he'll stay sort of healthy (especially if you can win in short series) and he'll make defending the Habs so much more difficult.

[Doc Holliday]

skilly said:

I don't think there is anymore "building a champion" ... I think it is more "realizing your shot".

I think those days have been over for a loooong time (if there ever were such days...). Teams like Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, NJ were regularely adding UFAs to their lineup in order to stay on top. The truly home grown teams were the exceptions, not the norm. Those 3-4-5 years plan were always a complete joke in my book and were simply easy excuses by organizations that didn't have the internal competency and/or owner's monetary commitment to ice a competitive team.

As BC once outlined, depending on the quality of Gainey's work, we could lose this summer Markov, Souray, Rivet, Johnson, Bonk and have lesser quality players replace them all. Before you know it, we'd actually have became worst before having been any good...

[seventeen]

Every team has those issues, though Doc, not just us. Boston could lose Stuart (hmmmm, what would he look like in a Habs jersey?). Buffalo needs to resign Briere and Drury, and so on and so on. I think we're actually in pretty good shape because of our scouting staff. If the scouts keep doing their job, we should have the pipeline of young guys coming up to replace the UFA's. That's one of the keys to winning the cup these days. The other, as you and BC are pointing out, is to pay the right guys the big money. Tampa, for all of its great forwards, is unlikely to win the Cup unless their goalie gets really hot, and I wouldn't want to bet my life on that chance. The money they've spent on Richards, Lecavalier and St. Louis, would be better spent on two of those three and a top 5 goalie. We won't go into their defense issues, either. Our problem is, in hindsight, having spent money on those mid level guys who can be replaced equally, or almost equally by a cheap prospect. On the Habs, this would be Bonk, Samsonov, Niniimaa, Rivet, Bouillon and Aebischer. We're certainly overpaying for Kovalev's production, but I can give him a pass for now because I expect better in the playoffs. We'd be a little worse off with Lapierre or Chipchura instead of Bonk, we'd be no worse off with Danis or Halak instead of Aebischer and don't think we'd be worse off with Streit playing regularly on D instead of Rivet or Bouillon. EAch of those guys is probably overpaid by half a mil. Add them up and as you say, we have enough for a guy who could make a difference. Why not pass on Rivet, Bonk, Niniimaa and Aebischer and go for Scott Gomez in the off season? Even if we 'overpay' for him, at least we know he can produce. Cote, O'Byrne or Emelin, Lapierre, etc. can replace the guys that leave. The GM's are still feeling their way through this, but the key is that pipeline from the farm to replace the more expensive, older, less than star quality players who will get more from another team that needs them.

[Deleted]

docholliday said:

As BC once outlined, depending on the quality of Gainey's work, we could lose this summer Markov, Souray, Rivet, Johnson, Bonk and have lesser quality players replace them all. Before you know it, we'd actually have became worst before having been any good...

Remember, guys, the cap's going up at the end of the season. We'll be able to do some spending.

[Skilly]

mattdhf said:

docholliday said:

As BC once outlined, depending on the quality of Gainey's work, we could lose this summer Markov, Souray, Rivet, Johnson, Bonk and have lesser quality players replace them all. Before you know it, we'd actually have became worst before having been any good...

Remember, guys, the cap's going up at the end of the season. We'll be able to do some spending.

Like we did last year? Most of the spending last year was to keep the crap we had or bring in new maneour. peeeeeee----eewwwww

[jkr]

forumghost2 said:

I know that the Habs have to drop some salary if they want Forsberg, hence the mentioning of Sammy and Janne, but if the Flyers are in rebuilding mode, why would they want two overpaid veterans?

Holmgren has already traded for Zhitnik & York in moves I found a little puzzling. However, it doesn't mean he'll do it again.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Posted on Fri, Jan. 26, 2007

Ed Moran | Will Fors be with us?
Hampered star might want to go to contender

IT WAS ANOTHER day of mystery surrounding the most scrutinized athlete on the Philadelphia sports scene these days.

Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren denied a story out of Colorado yesterday that Peter Forsberg quietly had talked with the Avalanche about going back there.

But the word out of the Flyers' locker room is that Forsberg wants to go to a contender. And Holmgren says a resolution can be expected well before the Feb. 27 trade deadline.

"I think it will all come to a head here in the next 10 days," Holmgren said yesterday. He said he plans to meet with Forsberg this weekend when he gets back from a scouting trip to Florida and he will seek an answer.

Holmgren said he had a phone conversation with Forsberg Wednesday and the two briefly touched on an extension or renewal of the contract that will expire at the end of the season, making Forsberg an unrestricted free agent.

"I talked to [Forsberg] by phone," Holmgren said. "We talked about having an extension to his contract. He said he wanted to wait."

At issue is Forsberg's right foot.

Forsberg is still not sure he can get his foot set in his skate comfortably enough to not feel like he's "driving in snow without snow tires," as he has described the problem.

- complete article

[Skilly]

I don't understand this skate issue .... "driving in snow without snow tires"? So his foot is sliding/slipping around in the skate? Well I don't have snow tires on my vehicle this winter, and I am doing fine (using all-seasons only because the vehicle is 6 months old ).

Wear three pairs of socks. I don't know the answer ..... but if it is medical we have a doctor that has practically cured a guy of epilepsy, he caught cancer early enough to save another, performed a tracteotomy on the bench, saved a player's severed hand .... if there is a medical answer I am darn well sure Mulder has the answer.

[Doc Holliday]

seventeen said:

Our problem is, in hindsight, having spent money on those mid level guys who can be replaced equally, or almost equally by a cheap prospect. On the Habs, this would be Bonk, Samsonov, Niniimaa, Rivet, Bouillon and Aebischer. We're certainly overpaying for Kovalev's production, but I can give him a pass for now because I expect better in the playoffs. We'd be a little worse off with Lapierre or Chipchura instead of Bonk, we'd be no worse off with Danis or Halak instead of Aebischer and don't think we'd be worse off with Streit playing regularly on D instead of Rivet or Bouillon. EAch of those guys is probably overpaid by half a mil. Add them up and as you say, we have enough for a guy who could make a difference. Why not pass on Rivet, Bonk, Niniimaa and Aebischer and go for Scott Gomez in the off season?

That's it.

It's as being outlined in the center threads, it's not how much you spend it's who you spend it on. Niinima (2.5), Aebisher (2), Rivet (2.5), Bouillon (1.8), Bonk (2.4), Krapsonov (3.5) is close to 15mil. That is a lot of salary spent on guys who are not worth it.

[HFTO]

Thats why I wouldn't add Forsberg to the scrap heap we've already assembled.
Maybe the Habs need to lose half the team because obviously they aren't getting it done.
They maybe stuck with Sammy but Ninimaa ,Bonk and Abs will free up significant money to keep atleast Markov.
Is this team as it stands a Forsberg away and an injured one at that?
I'm tired of waiting but losing what we precieve as the core maybe a blessing in disguise if the $$ can be spent in the right places.I hate getting old and cranky.
HFTO

[Doc Holliday]

hfto said:

Thats why I wouldn't add Forsberg to the scrap heap we've already assembled.
Maybe the Habs need to lose half the team because obviously they aren't getting it done.
They maybe stuck with Sammy but Ninimaa ,Bonk and Abs will free up significant money to keep atleast Markov.
Is this team as it stands a Forsberg away and an injured one at that?
I'm tired of waiting but losing what we precieve as the core maybe a blessing in disguise if the $$ can be spent in the right places.I hate getting old and cranky.
HFTO

...maybe the HABS simply need a change of the old guard. Without criticizing Koivu, maybe by trading him we'd actually change a dynamic that's been going on forever... I know people will tell me, "...but Saku is the heart and soul of the team..." and maybe that's where the problem lies? Rivet is a UFA next year and he's the other "leader".

Years after years, GM have purged the team of all sorts of players but have always kept intact the Koivu/Rivet core. ...just maybe it's time to touch that core after so many failed rebuilding attempts and years of mediocrity.

[CentreHice]

docholliday said:

hfto said:

Thats why I wouldn't add Forsberg to the scrap heap we've already assembled.
Maybe the Habs need to lose half the team because obviously they aren't getting it done.
They maybe stuck with Sammy but Ninimaa ,Bonk and Abs will free up significant money to keep atleast Markov.
Is this team as it stands a Forsberg away and an injured one at that?
I'm tired of waiting but losing what we precieve as the core maybe a blessing in disguise if the $$ can be spent in the right places.I hate getting old and cranky.
HFTO

...maybe the HABS simply need a change of the old guard. Without criticizing Koivu, maybe by trading him we'd actually change a dynamic that's been going on forever... I know people will tell me, "...but Saku is the heart and soul of the team..." and maybe that's where the problem lies? Rivet is a UFA next year and he's the other "leader".

Years after years, GM have purged the team of all sorts of players but have always kept intact the Koivu/Rivet core. ...just maybe it's time to touch that core after so many failed rebuilding attempts and years of mediocrity.

I think it's simply ABOUT time to do what has to be done so that Koivu can be what he should be: our #2 centre.

Time to get a bonafide elite #1 man in here.

But a stay-at-home responsible D-man is still on the front burner IMO.

[Skilly]

docholliday said:

seventeen said:

Our problem is, in hindsight, having spent money on those mid level guys who can be replaced equally, or almost equally by a cheap prospect. On the Habs, this would be Bonk, Samsonov, Niniimaa, Rivet, Bouillon and Aebischer. We're certainly overpaying for Kovalev's production, but I can give him a pass for now because I expect better in the playoffs. We'd be a little worse off with Lapierre or Chipchura instead of Bonk, we'd be no worse off with Danis or Halak instead of Aebischer and don't think we'd be worse off with Streit playing regularly on D instead of Rivet or Bouillon. EAch of those guys is probably overpaid by half a mil. Add them up and as you say, we have enough for a guy who could make a difference. Why not pass on Rivet, Bonk, Niniimaa and Aebischer and go for Scott Gomez in the off season?

That's it.

It's as being outlined in the center threads, it's not how much you spend it's who you spend it on. Niinima (2.5), Aebisher (2), Rivet (2.5), Bouillon (1.8), Bonk (2.4), Krapsonov (3.5) is close to 15mil. That is a lot of salary spent on guys who are not worth it.

Doc I said when we spent 1.9 on Ribs, 2.85 on Huet, and 1.8 on Bouillon that the saving from those three could have gotten us a decent player ...and it fell on deaf ears. Gainey overpayed certain players based on others things that weren't hockey related and it has come back to bite us in the arse ....

[blny]

NJ is a home grown team. They routinely draft well, and only use trades to add to their roster. It's all about balance. Parity means you have a chance each season, but you need a core of good young cheap players to keep costs down so you can take on a hired gun here and there. Even at the deadline, we're seeing it isn't going to be that easy to simply add a Forsberg without subtracting a salary or two. With the lack of trade traffic this year a strong indication, I really think those teams with strong scouting and even better drafting will continue to contend. There will be annual "where did they come from?" teams, but they'll disappear as fast as they appeared.

[blny]

The no trade clause appears to have been lifted.

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20070129_120829_4788

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

The Forsberg sweepstakes, coming to a head

Eric Duhatschek, today at 1:24 PM EST

The news that Peter Forsberg and the Philadelphia Flyers are finally going to sit down and spell out their futures, together or apart, sounds like the smartest move of the season by the National Hockey League’s 30th-place team.

Just don’t expect that whatever they decide, they necessarily share that information with the hockey public at large. What if, for example, the Flyers convince Forsberg that his greatest contribution to the long-term future of the organization is to go to a contender for the final six weeks of the season and playoffs and then re-sign with Philadelphia when he becomes an unrestricted free agent on July 1? That way, Forsberg can do something for the Flyers today (help them land a prospect and/or draft choices) and then something for tomorrow (coming right back to the City Of Brotherly Love to prove this year was an aberration and they really aren’t as bad as their record in the overall standings indicates).

Forsberg’s message has been remarkably consistent this year – he wants to get healthy, first and foremost, and then show the Flyers that he’s capable of more than what he’s done thus far in a injury-filled season. In other words, he doesn’t really want to go anywhere, all things being equal. Still, if they suggest that a trade-and-sign scenario is the best for the organization, maybe he’d accommodate them, just because he is an up-front sort of guy.

The larger issue, for the Flyers and for any team that sees itself as a seller at the trading deadline, is what to take in return for a player rental? Just about every general manager of a playoff-bound team sounds prepared to surrender his first-round choice in the 2007 entry draft, on the grounds that after a handful of players, the talent pool is about as shallow as it has been for a long time. By contrast, the early returns on 2008 show a deep pool of talent – and thus, those picks could become a far more attractive commodity than the ones coming up this June.

At the end of the day, that may be the tipping point. Would a team, not knowing where it might finish at the end of next year, be willing to give up a high 2008 draft choice, and miss out on an absolute blue-chip prospect as a result for a Forsberg, a Rob Blake, or even a Darcy Tucker? It would require patience on the part of Flyers’ management – and perhaps some over-eagerness on the part of a potential buyer, but it’s an interesting scenario to ponder.

Remember, some of the worst deals in NHL history were made under similar circumstances. We won’t bother enumerating them all, but how about these two for starters: Boston received Los Angeles’ first-round pick in the dynamic 1979 entry draft for goaltender Ron Grahame. That got them Ray Bourque.

And on Oct. 16, 1989, just days after the start of the season, the Toronto Maple Leafs probably figured a first-round pick way down the road in 1991 sounded like a good deal to acquire the rights to useful journeyman defenceman Tom Kurvers from the New Jersey Devils. Little did they realize that less than two years later, that would turn out to be the third overall pick in the draft – a young man named Scott Niedermayer, who seems to have done all right for himself ever since.

[cigarviper]

I'm no orthopedic surgeon or anything close but to me it seems that if a pro athlete with lots of money has a medical problem that is fixable, he would be able to find someone to do it if someone exists in short order. The fact that his foot still is no better tells me that the chances of it being resolved by the playoffs are very slim to none. Move on and look for a more permanent solution to our woes, like a heart transplant.

[jkr]

cigarviper said:

I'm no orthopedic surgeon or anything close but to me it seems that if a pro athlete with lots of money has a medical problem that is fixable, he would be able to find someone to do it if someone exists in short order. The fact that his foot still is no better tells me that the chances of it being resolved by the playoffs are very slim to none. Move on and look for a more permanent solution to our woes, like a heart transplant.

I thought the same thing. With the best medical care & tons of money, why can't they solve this problem?

[HFTO]

Doc your point about the shaking up core actually maybe the way the Habs have to go.
I was discussing that very topic today and maybe thats exactly what is needed to change what seems to be a team year in year out that doesn't improve.
Being average in many U.S. cities is great but not in Montreal anymore.Sure it's not going to happen overnight but again we've been saying that for a decade plus.
HFTO

[Deleted]

TSN mentioned that Bob Gainey is trying to package Perezhogin, Samsonov and Aebischer in a deal. I doubt that Bob would leak any information regarding any trade, and I really don't know what kind of impact Peter Forsberg could make considering he's on the IR more often than Koivu is.

[larek]

in a deal for whom?
I wouldnt want any of the 3 for Forsberg
not so much because he is worth so much more
but why and what would these players do for philly?
A vet ufa goalie
a 3.5 mill forward who is having an awful year
and a young player who cannot score

[Skilly]

mattdhf said:

TSN mentioned that Bob Gainey is trying to package Perezhogin, Samsonov and Aebischer in a deal. I doubt that Bob would leak any information regarding any trade, and I really don't know what kind of impact Peter Forsberg could make considering he's on the IR more often than Koivu is.

Thought I read somewhere that Gainey is reported to have said he would consider moving Souray's or Markov's contract for Forsberg's.

When I read it, I thought to myself, well that makes absolute no sense. Deplete our defense to get a guy for 38 days + a playoff run?

EDIT:

ahhhh here it is ...

habsask said:

From the Philadelphia Courier Post - for what it's worth. Habs are only one of the teams ocvered.

Montreal Canadiens: Last week Canadiens coach Guy Carbonneau deflected questions regarding Forsberg, but that didn't stop Le Journal de Montreal from asking its readers whether they would rather see Forsberg, Joe Sakic or Brad Richards don the rouge, blanc et bleu.

Montreal general manager Bob Gainey has said he will not part with top prospects, but he might put together a package that includes goaltender David Aebischer, who was a No. 1 in Colorado, and skilled but underachieving left wing Sergei Samsonov, who has just seven goals in 48 games. Right wing Alexander Perezhogin, who gave Keith Primeau his final concussion, also is believed to be available.

Also intriguing is the fact that two key defensemen in Montreal, Sheldon Souray and Andrei Markov, are in the final year of their contracts. Gainey might be willing to trade one of their salaries in exchange for Forsberg's.

[M. Beaux-Eaux]

Duhatscxhek's comment about the Flyers and Forsberg coming to a "give and come back" agreement sounds plausible. If that should be the case it would certainly narrow down the field of suitors to only those teams who are convinced that they can parade the Cup this Spring—the asking price would be absurd otherwise.

[Polarice]

I guess two of the Teams Forsberg wants to play for are the New York Rangers and the Habs!

Apparently he wants to remain in the East.

[HabSolute]

Paul Holmgren on 590 now....

Said a number of team called already....

If they get to that point, he would ask Peter his preferences


mostly bla bla bla , nothing really new..... they are still trying to figure out if they will try to stay together

[Disgruntled70sHab]

hfto said:

Doc your point about the shaking up core actually maybe the way the Habs have to go.
I was discussing that very topic today and maybe thats exactly what is needed to change what seems to be a team year in year out that doesn't improve.
Being average in many U.S. cities is great but not in Montreal anymore.Sure it's not going to happen overnight but again we've been saying that for a decade plus.
HFTO

I think bringing in a player like Forsberg might just do that HFTO. A player like him would have an impact in any dressing room.

But that aside, I think if Gainey is offering three roster players, it's far too much for a guy like Forsberg. Maybe he has a miricle working doctor on the club, I don't know.

Sort of reminds me of the Lindros to the Flyers scenario though in reverse. The Nordiques went from a basement dweller to a pretty good club after that trade. If Gainey is offering this deal then the Flyers will be that much stronger afterwards.

I still say check out what they might want for Mike York.

Cheers.

[jkr]

One thing we have learned since Gainey got here are that there are absolutely no leaks coming from his office. These names & scenarios are the product of bored sports writers.

Most of the speculation from the talking heads has been that the asking price for Forsberg will be a player & a 1st rounder. I don't know how that translates into Samsonov, Aebischer & Perezhogin.

[jkr]

disgruntled70shab said:

hfto said:

Doc your point about the shaking up core actually maybe the way the Habs have to go.
I was discussing that very topic today and maybe thats exactly what is needed to change what seems to be a team year in year out that doesn't improve.
Being average in many U.S. cities is great but not in Montreal anymore.Sure it's not going to happen overnight but again we've been saying that for a decade plus.
HFTO

I
Sort of reminds me of the Lindros to the Flyers scenario though in reverse. The Nordiques went from a basement dweller to a pretty good club after that trade. If Gainey is offering this deal then the Flyers will be that much stronger afterwards.

I still say check out what they might want for Mike York.

Cheers.

One of the players the Flyers gave up for Lindros in that deal was Forsberg.

You may be on to something Dis when it comes to York. We may be expecting Gainey to make a big splash but he may be after a smaller name.

[Marvin]

I think the Habs would put themselves into a deep hole by trading Aebeshier this year - before the Playoffs. That's too much of a burden on Huet, with no reliable back-up. Heck this isn't 1971 and an unproven Ken Dryden is not waiting in the wings.