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Post by Andrew on Mar 23, 2009 18:49:32 GMT -5
do you really think that would make any difference, Andrew? Yeah, you're right. Reports will later claim that he was asked to make those statements by the Lightning ownership, and that according to sources close to his family he's been looking at houses in Montreal and has always dreamed of finishing his career there. Meanwhile, some .jpg will surface of Habs gloves made up - matching Vinny's style - and the internet and Montreal media buzz will reach a fever pitch yet again. |
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Post by clear observer on Mar 23, 2009 22:24:03 GMT -5
Boivin probably started this by saying they were going to push hard for a francophone star. Off the top of my head, only Briere & Lecavalier come to mind. Lecavalier's contact scares the crap out of me especially if the cap goes down. And Briere had an excellent chance to sign in Montreal & turned his back on the opportunity. It's this kind of organizational meddling that can force a GM into a bad trade or acqusition. Lord knows this team needs a shake up but what it doesn't need the is the president brodcasting their plans. Nothing like continuously hand-cuffing your GM. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2009 23:22:00 GMT -5
Boivin probably started this by saying they were going to push hard for a francophone star. Politics have no place in hockey. Get players who want to compete. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 24, 2009 11:07:57 GMT -5
Politics have no place in hockey. Neither should religion. Cheers. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 24, 2009 12:00:40 GMT -5
Politics have no place in hockey. Neither should religion. Cheers. ...in Montreal, hockey actually is bigger than both religion and politics. |
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Post by franko on Mar 24, 2009 13:01:24 GMT -5
Neither should religion. Cheers. ...in Montreal, hockey actually is bigger than both religion and politics. as the McGill University course posits. still thinking of signing up, actually |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Mar 24, 2009 14:19:43 GMT -5
Neither should religion. Cheers. ...in Montreal, hockey actually is bigger than both religion and politics. c'est vrai, c'est vrai .. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 27, 2009 7:42:33 GMT -5
...interviewed yesterday, Vinny said that whatever happens, he'd really like to still play with St-Louis...
...almost sounded like a plea to trade for both...
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Post by CrocRob on Mar 27, 2009 7:49:26 GMT -5
I don't see a situation where this trade could end up with us winning. I hope that if it happens, we fleece them but I expect it to to the other way.
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Post by franko on Mar 27, 2009 8:12:33 GMT -5
Vinny saying all the right things [let's face it, if the face of our team (whoever that is) was the centre of trade rumors, wouldn't we want him to say "All I know is that I'm here and that I've signed a long term contract" rather than "get me out of here as soon as possible"?]
I guess we'll know the end of June.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Mar 27, 2009 8:28:44 GMT -5
Vinny saying all the right things [let's face it, if the face of our team (whoever that is) was the centre of trade rumors, wouldn't we want him to say "All I know is that I'm here and that I've signed a long term contract" rather than "get me out of here as soon as possible"?] I guess we'll know the end of June. Vinny did sign that contract to finish his carreer in TB. That said, he certainly must have been shaken to learn that despite the commitment he showed, they were ready to trade him nonetheless. |
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Post by clear observer on Mar 27, 2009 10:53:56 GMT -5
I don't see a situation where this trade could end up with us winning. I hope that if it happens, we fleece them but I expect it to to the other way. So do I; and "fleece" will be a GROSS UNDERSTATEMENT. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on Mar 27, 2009 13:27:40 GMT -5
Well I'm not so sure we CAN get fleeced since there is nobody in the organization we can live without, although I agree it's possible to overpay by simply giving up too many players and picks and stripping away all the depth in the organization
The basis parameters of a trade can be figured out fairly easily. We're probably looking at 2-3 roster players, 1-2 prospects, and picks.
Plekanec, AKostitsyn, Pacioretty, Subban, a 1st and a 2nd.
That's a serious offer, although I'd love to deal SKost instead of AKost. I don't think we can get away with not trading either MaxPac or Latendresse but we should try to keep the one with the higher ceiling. We really don't NEED both. Plekanec is an easy give but he's an RFA at the end of this season which may bring down his trade value. AKost is a tough give but TB would need a bona fide "player" in this deal and AKost gives them a guy who can score, still has tantalizing upside, and is signed through 2010-11 at a reasonable $3.2m. We know he's a lazy punk. You could try and throw Higgins in there but he's RFA as well.
Tanguay/Lecavalier/SKost
Higgins/Lapierre/Latendresse
UFA/Chipchura/D'Agostini
Kosto/Metropolit/Stewart
Markov/Komi (sign him cheap)
Hamrlik/O'Byrne
Schneider/prospect/UFA
Offensively challenged beyond the 1st line? You bet. Painful lack of depth at centre? Yup. But I think placing Captain Max Lapierre in an offensive role with Lats could pay nice dividends.
It's a rebuilding scenario. We get rid of Koivu, Kovy, etc. and get rid of guys like Pleks and AKost who have been here long enough that we know we don't like them. Giving up Pacioretty or Latendresse would be the most painful, IMO. We don't have much offense in the pipe to come along so signing Tanguay becomes quite essential.
We wouldn't be as deep as we have been but the point of depth sometimes is to use it to get the player you really need.
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Post by CrocRob on Mar 27, 2009 13:39:53 GMT -5
Boston_Habs, I wouldn't be willing to pay half that for an aging star whose talent is declining and is getting an exorbitant amount of money heading into a period of economic uncertainty and reduced consumption. If the goal is to rebuild, you don't trade all your talent for one guy who will take up 14-18% of your payroll for the foreseeable future.
My counter-offer: 1 first round pick, Higgins and Komisarek's rights.
All that for a player who got dominated by a line of Lapierre, Kostopoulos and Latendresse for most of last night, and should have been available as a UFA in the first place.
I wouldn't reward the guys in TB for signing a UFA player, and then effectively backing out of a contract Lecavalier negotiated in good faith. I have a hard time getting over that principle before giving TB enough talent to bolster their team for years, while handcuffing our team to mediocrity for the next few seasons. And yes, that's truly what I believe the net result of trading for Lecavalier will be, your lineup demonsrates that much.
edit: For what it's worth, TB is sorely lacking in defensive talent. Barring them getting Hedman (or maybe even if they do) I think they'll be more after McDonagh than Pacioretty. And I want Artyukhin in return. Reckless physicality is only irritating if it's on the other bench.
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Post by franko on Mar 27, 2009 13:52:26 GMT -5
You nailed it, RS.
The cupboard is going to be bare enough after July 1 . . . and even though BG will be able to pick up some other UFAs [I can dream, can't I, though I haven't looked at the list long and hard enough to know who will turn him done this year], if we give up as many as BH suggests [and who he suggests -- Subban going means more mediocre defense in the years ahead as well as three current roster players -- we stand to try to scrape into the playoffs for the next 5 year again, even with Vinny -- and we are saddled with his contract for the next ten!
I don't think he's enough to carry this team [whoever might be on it] -- he hasn't been able to in TBay [he was on a loaded team that won the Cup].
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Post by Boston_Habs on Mar 27, 2009 14:10:55 GMT -5
If we can get him for less that would be great, although I'm skeptical that offering Higgins (an RFA), a 1st, and the rights to negotiate with Komi is very enticing.
On your point of whether Lecavalier is even worth the trouble... I would't read last night's game into it, but I agree he hasn't been the consistent 100 point guy I would like. It's a concern.
And then I come back to, what's the alternative? This team is soft and is about to get blown up this summer. There is no UFA that is coming, no superstar to draft... the only choice rather than do nothing is to make a trade.
Maybe it's pick your player. Would I offer the same package for Kovalchuk? Sure. Danny Briere? I'd dial it back. Dany Heatley? I like him but the Sens won't deal him here.
We have a major problem to solve this summer and I don't want to see the same faces again in the fall.
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Post by jkr on Mar 27, 2009 15:24:44 GMT -5
I have a real problem with this contract & the economic uncertainty already mentioned. The Habs could fall into Tampa's hole - too much money into too few players. But he's only 29 (in about 3 weeks), he has 200 points in the last 2 years &, according to TSN is playing with injuries. If Montreal wants to take that contract off Tampa's hands, there should be value in that. IMO, the immense cap relief is part of the trade package. The Habs shouldn't have to strip the cupboard bare & empty the bank account. Gainey can deal with pressure from the media & the fans but I think he will have a problem dealing with the likes of Boivin when he says stuff like "we're going to knock ourselves out trying to land a francophone star." There are only 2 obvious candidates & both of them turned down opportunities to go to Montreal as UFAs. The Habs should identify the best player available & work that way. After a quick look at www.nhlnumbers.com the two best UFA centres I see are Cammalleri & Henrik Sedin ( but he comes as a package I'm sure). |
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Post by franko on Mar 27, 2009 15:32:35 GMT -5
ya, the two Sedins are tied at the hip with hockey tape.
rumor [take it for what its worth] says Burke is going after them.
Cammalleri is playing hard in his contact year [why aren't our Habs UFAs doing the same?]
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Post by CrocRob on Mar 28, 2009 11:42:56 GMT -5
The Sedins are apparently priced at about $10-12M for the two of them.
Cammalleri is more of the same smurf hockey. More skilled than our centers perhaps, but I can't say I'm that interested.
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Post by habmeister on Mar 28, 2009 13:53:18 GMT -5
The sedins are highly overrated imo. yes they put up the stats, but don't expect them to raise their level in the post-season or show up in a series against the bruins where it gets rough. they will only sign together of course, but i'd avoid them, to me they are excellent second liners on a cup winning team, but not first liners on one.
please don't trot out in the last 3 years that they are top 20 in scoring, they are very durable, and very talented, and very intelligent, but again they aren't imo top flight forwards.
as far as vinny goes, i'm a huge fan of his, but not a huge fan of the tampa bay way of team building. his contract is not only over-priced, but heading into the next 3-5 years of this economy he would have to be top 3 in the league to justify his price tag. i look at every player as a business asset factoring in their price and output, right now his just doesn't add up. yes he is francophone and he would be a superstar, but can he really live up to a $6.8 mil cap hit?
i'm not saying that if we currently had him on our roster at that price i'd be looking to deal him, but to trade the kitchen sink to tampa for an overpaid "star" is not how i would go about it. if we can get marty st. louis and artyukhin then i'd give them almost their choice of our roster.
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Post by Yossarian on Mar 28, 2009 14:12:19 GMT -5
I love Vinny, his style of play and especially his skill set, but a package that includes the 3 of A. Kost, Pacioretty and Subban is too much future as far as I'm concerned. Pacioretty is the exact type of player this team has lacked since Leclair was traded and needs to be retained at all costs. Subban is a high character placer with superior skating skills and has bled Habs red white and blue since before he was drafted. The Kosty bros, McDonaugh or one of Fischer/Weber and draft picks and I'd be willing to live with it.
I agree completely with RS and H&C. Good posts.
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Post by jkr on Apr 4, 2009 5:35:56 GMT -5
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 4, 2009 7:36:58 GMT -5
Oooh. Now can we please pay through the nose for him? Pretty please? |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Apr 4, 2009 9:23:04 GMT -5
can he really live up to a $6.8 mil cap hit? To put things in perspective, The combined cap hits of Koivu and Brisebois is pretty near the cap hit of Vinny so that cap hit doesn't worry me one bit and yeah it's fully worth it. He's a real All-Star, he's not even 30, he's a leader that won it all and he can do it all on the ice. PLUS he's been the Darling of the HABS fan base even if he never played for us. |
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Post by blny on Apr 4, 2009 9:49:27 GMT -5
While $7 million is a lot for a PPG guy, I think he's the big center we need. He's not a perimeter player. I think he'd work well with our younger players, and would be a huge step in the right direction. His salary isn't the big concern for me. It's what it will take to get him.
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Post by CrocRob on Apr 4, 2009 11:01:18 GMT -5
I'm slowly warming up to the idea of this, but I'm still not on board with paying them with 5 or 6 assets for a player THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE.
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Post by Anardil1 on Apr 4, 2009 11:45:21 GMT -5
I for one can't wait for July 1st to arrive and end all this nonsense. Sure I'd like very much to finally have the big #1 centre on the roster. I just am a little antsy of the likely overpayment necessary to get him here. Plus he might be damaged goods to boot! Wrist injuries are tricky, especially for talented hockey players.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2009 14:03:26 GMT -5
I for one can't wait for July 1st to arrive and end all this nonsense. Sure I'd like very much to finally have the big #1 centre on the roster. I just am a little antsy of the likely overpayment necessary to get him here. Plus he might be damaged goods to boot! Wrist injuries are tricky, especially for talented hockey players. Somehow, like most French superstars from other teams, as soon as they come to Montreal they crash and burn. I wonder how long we'd ask Lecavalier to be traded if he goes through an extended rough patch... |
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Post by Skilly on Apr 4, 2009 20:45:28 GMT -5
I for one can't wait for July 1st to arrive and end all this nonsense. Sure I'd like very much to finally have the big #1 centre on the roster. I just am a little antsy of the likely overpayment necessary to get him here. Plus he might be damaged goods to boot! Wrist injuries are tricky, especially for talented hockey players. If we get him, we send him to Souray's doctor |
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Post by seventeen on Apr 5, 2009 1:35:18 GMT -5
Didn't it take that doctor 3 seasons to finally get it right?
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