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Post by Cranky on Jun 11, 2013 0:28:47 GMT -5
Too many teams saying that they need to get bigger and tougher. Too much cr*p being allowed in the playoffs now. Too much waffleness coming from Brendan Shanahan's office now (remember the first few days of his reign, when suspensions were being handed out like crazy?). Given the evidence of the league, they know what we know and we know what we know. So if there are known knowns, is the team management still going to draft based on changing the known knowns or hoping the known knows change? Are those who are drafting based on known knowns more knowledgeable? Is our teams management less concerned about the know knowns and simply drafting on expectation of self fabricated knowns? Rather then known knowns? I don't know. Do you know? |
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Post by frozone on Jun 11, 2013 16:55:38 GMT -5
Sure, absolutely, no doubt...and the Hens beat us like rented mules. Boston just mauled the far superior talented Pens like rented mules too. Accident? This is a massive case of cognitive dissonance. Epic level. If one player has a bit less talent then the next player but has 6" 50 pounds on him, I'm taking the bigger player. EVERY TIME. If no other reason then I believe in physics. The kind of physics that says that a bigger player has a better chance of competing with players his own size playing a rough game. Sure, if you compare one player that has off the chart compete level with just an average BillyBob Gagne, then I pick the off the charter (although it begs the question, how do I find him if he's not in the charts?). If Timmins can't see the REAL NHL in front of him, then we have another 5 year plan awaiting after this five year plan ends, just like the previous five year plan which got followed the previous five year failure. I believe in physics too and I want the team to get bigger. But height doesn't do much other than improve one's reach. Weight is where you get the more important physical advantage imo. If i'm drafting players for "size", I would sooner draft Max Domi at 5'9" 195lbs than Mantha at 6'4" 190lbs. When its all said and done, I think weight generally trumps height in contact sports. I would even argue that having a lower center of gravity is an advantage (leverage). There's a reason why there are so many running backs hovering around 5'10" and 220 lbs. Even though they are obese according to the body mass index, they are still among the most explosive athletes in the world. This is how I see Domi. He'll be small enough to get into the tight areas, heavy enough to assert himself physically and still quick enough to get to the puck first. I realize Mantha is still pretty heavy so maybe he isn't the best example, but my point is that we can't draft a tall stringbean and pass him off as a big player in hope that one day he fills out. If we draft a 6'3" 175lbs player, I won't be fooled into thinking that we landed a potential power forward. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 11, 2013 17:26:22 GMT -5
Sure, absolutely, no doubt...and the Hens beat us like rented mules. Boston just mauled the far superior talented Pens like rented mules too. Accident? This is a massive case of cognitive dissonance. Epic level. If one player has a bit less talent then the next player but has 6" 50 pounds on him, I'm taking the bigger player. EVERY TIME. If no other reason then I believe in physics. The kind of physics that says that a bigger player has a better chance of competing with players his own size playing a rough game. Sure, if you compare one player that has off the chart compete level with just an average BillyBob Gagne, then I pick the off the charter (although it begs the question, how do I find him if he's not in the charts?). If Timmins can't see the REAL NHL in front of him, then we have another 5 year plan awaiting after this five year plan ends, just like the previous five year plan which got followed the previous five year failure. I believe in physics too and I want the team to get bigger. But height doesn't do much other than improve one's reach. Weight is where you get the more important physical advantage imo. If i'm drafting players for "size", I would sooner draft Max Domi at 5'9" 195lbs than Mantha at 6'4" 190lbs. When its all said and done, I think weight generally trumps height in contact sports. I would even argue that having a lower center of gravity is an advantage (leverage). There's a reason why there are so many running backs hovering around 5'10" and 220 lbs. Even though they are obese according to the body mass index, they are still among the most explosive athletes in the world. This is how I see Domi. He'll be small enough to get into the tight areas, heavy enough to assert himself physically and still quick enough to get to the puck first. I realize Mantha is still pretty heavy so maybe he isn't the best example, but my point is that we can't draft a tall stringbean and pass him off as a big player in hope that one day he fills out. If we draft a 6'3" 175lbs player, I won't be fooled into thinking that we landed a potential power forward. I agree with you on this one. |
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 12, 2013 1:04:45 GMT -5
I believe in physics too and I want the team to get bigger. But height doesn't do much other than improve one's reach. Weight is where you get the more important physical advantage imo. If i'm drafting players for "size", I would sooner draft Max Domi at 5'9" 195lbs than Mantha at 6'4" 190lbs. When its all said and done, I think weight generally trumps height in contact sports. I would even argue that having a lower center of gravity is an advantage (leverage). There's a reason why there are so many running backs hovering around 5'10" and 220 lbs. Even though they are obese according to the body mass index, they are still among the most explosive athletes in the world. This is how I see Domi. He'll be small enough to get into the tight areas, heavy enough to assert himself physically and still quick enough to get to the puck first. I realize Mantha is still pretty heavy so maybe he isn't the best example, but my point is that we can't draft a tall stringbean and pass him off as a big player in hope that one day he fills out. If we draft a 6'3" 175lbs player, I won't be fooled into thinking that we landed a potential power forward. I agree with you on this one. Not. Out to contradict and agree that a low cg like PK has enables him to get under and drive up BUT a 6'3 175 guy can grow into 6'4 220 whereas a 5'9 195 won't grow taller and will max out at 200. People do tend to gain weight as they age and players mature in strength to age 28. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 12, 2013 6:03:35 GMT -5
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Post by Patty Roy on Jun 12, 2013 7:46:48 GMT -5
Coughlin - There is just no way Timmins is going to come out weeks before the draft and call a kid "his sleeper" if he had true intentions to draft him right?
Clearly this management team values size. Lots of big boys at that evaluation camp. While i agree with BC that Morin and Gauthier are likely to be gone if this team doesn't draft until #25, i do believe that McCarron should be there for our 1st pick and Diaby there for our early 2nds if we so choose to go that route.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 12, 2013 9:52:31 GMT -5
Coughlin - There is just no way Timmins is going to come out weeks before the draft and call a kid "his sleeper" if he had true intentions to draft him right? Clearly this management team values size. Lots of big boys at that evaluation camp. While i agree with BC that Morin and Gauthier are likely to be gone if this team doesn't draft until #25, i do believe that McCarron should be there for our 1st pick and Diaby there for our early 2nds if we so choose to go that route. I think McCarron will go earlier than he should just based on his size and possible potential. Those really big boys always seem to get drafted early, and most don't turn into the next Lucic. He is ideally suited for one of our two early second round picks, but I don't think he gets out of the first round. If they really want him and he is still available at 25, they likely will pick him. But, there should be some interesting decisions at 25 depending on who else is on the table. Some players will drop this year for sure due to the large group of good players from picks 16-40 or so. Teams will have them ranked all over the place. I am still trying to narrow my wish list for those picks to under five guys, and it is tough. Diaby with one of our early second round picks would be leaving about 30 BPAs on the table. I don't see it happening. There could be some real gems at 34/36, and many have decent size to them. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 12, 2013 10:11:00 GMT -5
Coughlin - There is just no way Timmins is going to come out weeks before the draft and call a kid "his sleeper" if he had true intentions to draft him right? Clearly this management team values size. Lots of big boys at that evaluation camp. While i agree with BC that Morin and Gauthier are likely to be gone if this team doesn't draft until #25, i do believe that McCarron should be there for our 1st pick and Diaby there for our early 2nds if we so choose to go that route. I find it odd Timmins would make this comment at all? Unless he slipped up |
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Post by blny on Jun 19, 2013 6:11:25 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards.
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Post by Tankdriver on Jun 19, 2013 11:02:27 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards. They should, but they won't After watching the finals, MacKinnon owned Jones. I just don't see Jones obtaining superstar status. He'll be a good player, I just think the Avs are trying to trade down a spot or two and try to get another first or second round pick and still draft Jones with the thought that Florida will draft MacKinnon. |
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Post by blny on Jun 19, 2013 12:31:30 GMT -5
As I've said elswhere, MacKinnon is to Crosby as Jones is to Bouwmeester. No one would pass up Crosby for Bouwmeester. Sure, Jones will eat minutes and be a big smooth skater. Yippeee. He doesn't have much of a shot from the point. He's got zero mean streak, or real physical dimension to his play. When Jay was drafted, they thought the physical play and mean streak would come. It didn't. Either you have it, or you don't.
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 19, 2013 17:06:46 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards. Not suprised...I have MacKinnon #1 overall also. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Jun 20, 2013 11:20:15 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards. I actually don't blame his thinking, as I think MacKinnon should go #1 anyway. What I question is his logic in using his outside voice on this. If I was him, I would be shopping that #1 pick with the two Florida clubs and see what they are willing to give up to move up. You still get your "forward" especially if you find out they have their sights on Jones anyway. I definitely would not be playing all my cards in the media right now. If Sakic has his eyes set on MacKinnon anyway, he may just want to keep the pick to guarantee he gets his man. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 21, 2013 1:01:06 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards. I actually don't blame his thinking, as I think MacKinnon should go #1 anyway. What I question is his logic in using his outside voice on this. If I was him, I would be shopping that #1 pick with the two Florida clubs and see what they are willing to give up to move up. You still get your "forward" especially if you find out they have their sights on Jones anyway. I definitely would not be playing all my cards in the media right now. If Sakic has his eyes set on MacKinnon anyway, he may just want to keep the pick to guarantee he gets his man. I would keep the pick....gives excitement to team fans having first overall and what if Florida wants MacKinnon also, or re-trades the pick? |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 25, 2013 12:40:05 GMT -5
I would throw an offer on table for MacKinnon. Either at #1 or #3 overall. Not too often have a chance at building block like him. I'd offer a couple of top players, our #1 pick and Kristo plus a top prospect. Keep Subban/Galchenyuk/Pacioretty everybody else is on the table
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Post by BadCompany on Jun 25, 2013 13:33:08 GMT -5
According to a report out of Colorado, which was relayed to me on the radio this morning, Sakic has said they will pass on Jones in favor of one of three forwards. I actually don't blame his thinking, as I think MacKinnon should go #1 anyway. What I question is his logic in using his outside voice on this. If I was him, I would be shopping that #1 pick with the two Florida clubs and see what they are willing to give up to move up. You still get your "forward" especially if you find out they have their sights on Jones anyway. I definitely would not be playing all my cards in the media right now. If Sakic has his eyes set on MacKinnon anyway, he may just want to keep the pick to guarantee he gets his man. I don't mind him coming out and saying it. If Sakic wants to get the reputation of a straight-shooting GM, then so be it. Its not necessarily a bad thing. And what better way to set that tone then by coming out and declaring who you want to pick, and then doing it? On the other hand, given that Patrick Roy is the smartest person in the room (go ahead, ask him), I believe that the only two players the Avs are seriously considering are MacKinnon and Drouin, both Q players that Roy would be very familiar with. So at MOST they will only want to drop down one spot. They can't take the risk that MacKinnon and Drouin go 1-2 and they're "left" with Jones or Barkov. So unless Sakic is playing a long-con on Florida I believe Sakic is just being honest. They're going to take MacKinnon and they don't want to be known as an organization that tries to play mind-games. Now watch Sakic pull a blockbuster trade and or surprise pick just to make me look stupid. Damn you Burnaby Joe!! |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 25, 2013 14:15:40 GMT -5
I actually don't blame his thinking, as I think MacKinnon should go #1 anyway. What I question is his logic in using his outside voice on this. If I was him, I would be shopping that #1 pick with the two Florida clubs and see what they are willing to give up to move up. You still get your "forward" especially if you find out they have their sights on Jones anyway. I definitely would not be playing all my cards in the media right now. If Sakic has his eyes set on MacKinnon anyway, he may just want to keep the pick to guarantee he gets his man. I don't mind him coming out and saying it. If Sakic wants to get the reputation of a straight-shooting GM, then so be it. Its not necessarily a bad thing. And what better way to set that tone then by coming out and declaring who you want to pick, and then doing it? On the other hand, given that Patrick Roy is the smartest person in the room (go ahead, ask him), I believe that the only two players the Avs are seriously considering are MacKinnon and Drouin, both Q players that Roy would be very familiar with. So at MOST they will only want to drop down one spot. They can't take the risk that MacKinnon and Drouin go 1-2 and they're "left" with Jones or Barkov. So unless Sakic is playing a long-con on Florida I believe Sakic is just being honest. They're going to take MacKinnon and they don't want to be known as an organization that tries to play mind-games. Now watch Sakic pull a blockbuster trade and or surprise pick just to make me look stupid. Damn you Burnaby Joe!! I think Sakic is legit. Doubt there is a hoax here. Right now their plans are to draft MacKinnon and break him in as 3rd line center. He did say Avs are open to trading the pick. espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/9419316/patrick-roy-says-colorado-avalanche-nathan-mackinnon-overall-pick |
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Post by seventeen on Jun 26, 2013 0:43:45 GMT -5
What's there to lose by Sakic and Roy playing this game? If they get a terrific proposal to drop one spot because Florida is desperate for Mckinnon or Drouin, then they trade the pick and get their choice of Drouin or Jones (they need a dman more anyway). If they don't get a great offer then, they pick who they want. Besides being 'honest', it's a lure out there for some silly GM to bite on.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 26, 2013 7:22:21 GMT -5
What's there to lose by Sakic and Roy playing this game? If they get a terrific proposal to drop one spot because Florida is desperate for Mckinnon or Drouin, then they trade the pick and get their choice of Drouin or Jones (they need a dman more anyway). If they don't get a great offer then, they pick who they want. Besides being 'honest', it's a lure out there for some silly GM to bite on. When I play poker, I don't tell the other players what I'm holding, and if I do, it might not be true. Then again occasionally it may be true to hide my intentions. Or not? Rewarding incompetence in the draft is like giving the biggest jerk at school first choice of all the girls at the prom. It's like affirmative action out of control. We should do like they do in the Premier league, drop the worst teams to the AHL instead of rewarding them, and bring up the top two in the AHL. It makes the regular season more important to ALL teams and fans and is much more fair. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 26, 2013 7:31:09 GMT -5
Bob McKenzie released his draft rankings last night. In past Bob's rankings been about best barometer how the draft will go. Below is a link to his Top 75 draftees. After watching his show I am hoping for Rychel, Hartman or Poirier to be there at 25. www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9420 |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 27, 2013 11:02:41 GMT -5
Even with Habs emphasize on size...be GM for a minute....if your scouts tell you Mats Naslund is on the board at 25 do you take him?
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2013 Draft
Jun 27, 2013 12:56:41 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Andrew on Jun 27, 2013 12:56:41 GMT -5
Even with Habs emphasize on size...be GM for a minute....if your scouts tell you Mats Naslund is on the board at 25 do you take him? If he's the best player available then you have to. If we were to have a second Gallagher in our system, it's not a bad problem to have, as he'd have trade value with no shortage of interest around the league. It's Timmins' job to acquire the best talent available. From there it's up to Bergevin to ice the best team that he can, using commodities to fill holes and address areas of weakness. |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 28, 2013 9:06:53 GMT -5
I'd love Petan at 25 because I feel he is another Naslund type. But I can understand the size thing also with Gallagher, Plekanec firmly in place here. Getting a physical player like Rychel gives the team offense along with physical size. But I would take Petan ahead of Hartman or Erne, Zykov, Poirie. All those have issues also.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Jun 28, 2013 10:46:25 GMT -5
I'd love Petan at 25 because I feel he is another Naslund type. But I can understand the size thing also with Gallagher, Plekanec firmly in place here. Getting a physical player like Rychel gives the team offense along with physical size. But I would take Petan ahead of Hartman or Erne, Zykov, Poirie. All those have issues also. By the time #25 is called, Pétan may be the best choice available. |
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Post by Skilly on Jun 30, 2013 13:14:08 GMT -5
If I'm Florida or Tampa , I wouldn't take Seth Jones. Florida has Gubranson, Kulikov, Petrovic ....they need offense, and Huberdeau'-Drouin is a nice way to start building it.
Tampa? By buying out Vinny, they should select Barkov.
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Post by blny on Jun 30, 2013 13:23:40 GMT -5
No doubt the debate of BPA vs. need comes up for teams today. Carolina is on record saying they need D. Is Jones ready enough to be the player Carolina wants right now? Do they trade up to get him?
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 30, 2013 16:45:39 GMT -5
Some draft questions asked to Grant McCagg. Former Habs scout and now co-editor of ISS and Bob McKenzie right hand man. Who do you see most likely drafted by Montreal at 25?
Most likely one of the four M's - McCarron, Morin, McCoshen, Mueller. Maybe Gauthier, maybe Rychel, perhaps even Hartman. Everything depends on what happens in front of them. I know the Habs are high on Lazar, but can't see him dropping that far. Who knows..if someone like Lazar or Morin drops to 20..maybe the Habs dangle a second to move up. At least this year they have the ammo to do so. The thing about Morin is upside...he oozes it. The improvement he made from season's start to finish was perhaps greater than any other prospect. McCoshen who has drawn comparisons to McDonagh. They like another big US dman also who made strides as the season went on was Downing. But not first round like, he's bit of a wild card. Burakowsky is a possibility I suppose too. I have a definite issue with his vision...doesn't use his linemates very effectively from what I've seen. Lots of dipsy, but no doodle Whats your take on Zykov? Very strong, but not tough, you won't see him drop the gloves. PF potential, but lacks vision I think. Skating needs some work. They like him, but slim chance picked by the Habs in the first. What do you think of Mantha? you never draft players based solely on their stats......you have to watch them. The thing is..he's playing in a league where Steve Bernier scored 50 goals in his draft year too. People looked at his stats and size and thought "wow", he must be great. He has NHL speed and shot..that's going to make you productive in the Q, but will it translate seamlessly to the NHL? That's where there are questions. He reminds me quite a bit of Joe Colborne..big lanky kid with tons of skill who can skate very well for his size...but had a definite aversion to contact. Boston found that out too late. He's still struggling to find an NHL role. Mantha disappeared down the stretch and in the playoffs. Montreal is looking for players who will help them win playoff games, especially with their first pick. You can't risk it on a player who is chicken bleep. Nobody's saying Mantha will never figure it out..perhaps he does. But do you take that chance with a first round pick when there are so many other solid options available? I think it's in part a question of him falling victim to a deep draft. If this was a weak draft someone would take him in the top 20 for sure and hope he can go from a skinny kid who really dislikes contact to a relatively brave sniper. Looks like Grant called it...first name he gave me McCarron. He said they like Hartman and McCoshen...see if they are still there in 2nd round. Make it bit more interesting |
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 30, 2013 17:01:18 GMT -5
He's got McCarron going to London play with Horvat and Domi next year.
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Post by GNick99 on Jun 30, 2013 17:18:16 GMT -5
Damn, next 2 on Timmins list just went...Hartman and McCoshen. He had them both high.
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Post by GNick99 on Jul 10, 2013 14:51:52 GMT -5
Got some tidbits on why the picks. Been a week+ since the draft. McCagg on some of the picks. He said he talked to Trevor Timmins on Monday:
On McCarron...Trevor told me a couple months ago that McCarron is "tough as nails". A new regime in Montreal, and they are tired of being pushed around. The team has never won a Cup without toughness. There's no lack of skill on this team and never will be...but you need a mix ideally, especially on your top lines. Like he is going to London. Mac not going to learn how to fight playing college hockey as well as you will playing in the OHL. If he goes to London the Hunters don't throw their prospects to the wolves. Was Tinordi asked by the Hunters to fight all the time? Mac will be asked to play an important role with the Knights, likely play with Horvat and Domi on a scoring line. Similar to what Montreal will want from him someday.
Jaco De La Rose: Picking a versatile 6-2 Swede who skates better than most draftees. He really wants to play in Windsor next year, thinks best for his development. Not up to him, up to Leksand. However, Windsor will try to get him to come over the next year. I thought both Lehkonen and DLR disappointed somewhat at the U-18's, and lowered their stock. Teams have a tendency to go for the flavour of the month..Habs may have been fortunate to have them drop..time will tell. On a lot of lists going into the season Fucale, Lehkonen and DLR were considered candidates for the top 15. A lot of potential there.
Why Fucale....Timmins was at 2012 playoff game between QC and Halifax. Halifax lost Game 3 and went down 3-0 in the series. They had blown a lead in the third. He went downstairs to speak to Roy after the game...on the way he saw Fucale outside his dressing room, and he was livid. Yelling and cursing, broke his stick, etc. He was the only player in the hallway. He thought at the time...now there's a competitor. All Halifax did was come back and win the next four games.
Why Crisp.... spent the last year in the gym, changed him. He is ripped compared to other draftees. A crossover scout told him Crisp is one tough SOB. Obviously he was flying under teams' radars as Erie ended up not having any other guys to scout at year's end with Harper and Betz falling off the map. Habs had Crisp at their mini combine, and according to Trevor he "really surprised us" in the skating department. I guess he's come a long way in that regard. It should also be noted that the Habs put an emphasis on skating in the offseason, and have one of the best skating teachers in the business in Paul Lawson.
Why Sven Andrighetto? He talked to Andre Tourigny before the draft. The past two years he couldn't stop talking about this kid..thinks it was a travesty he was passed over last season, and swears he will play in the NHL. He is a very similar player to Gallagher..very gritty and determined, quite skilled, smart, great hands.
Why Remay....Timmins saw Reway play more than 20 times live..said there were games when he never passed the puck. Too his credit, and Ben Groulx, by the playoffs he was starting to figure that out..that it's easier to get scoring chances from the give and go than it is by trying to deke five players. You were amazed by his hockey sense, no doubt he has talent though - more than once he DID deke through every player on the other team...he has some moves and quickness that few junior players have, and he'll only get better playing under Groulx. He came a long way this past season. Just last summer he was a chain smoking orphan with bad habits and a bad attitude - but Groulx is getting him turned around, and he thinks Reway will be playing in the NHL by age 21.
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