Subban

[Gogie]

	GP	G	A	PTS	PIM	PPG	PPP	+/-	ATOI	HIT	BLK	TK	GV
Weber	5	1	4	5	8	1	1	+8	26:16	15	9	1	8
Subban	5	2	3	5	8	2	4	-4	24:38	6	14	3	6

Legend:
GP - Games Played
G - Goals
A - Assists
PTS - Points
PIM - Penalties in Minutes
PPG - Power Play Goals
PPP - Power Play Points
ATOI - Average Time on Ice
HIT - Hits
BLK - Blocked Shots
TK - Take-aways
GV - Give-aways

UPDATED THROUGH GAMES OF OCTOBER 22

[Disgruntled70sHab]

... a new start with new friends ...

[Deleted]

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

[PTH]

Oct 24, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

La Presse had an article about this as well.

Weise also mentionned getting a call from the Habs on July 1st, he was a bit miffed that he got a call while he wasn't worth calling during the initial feeling-out period.... which to me sounds like he was a plan B or C.

[franko]

Oct 24, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

naw, PK was traded because MT (and MB) didn't like him from day 1.

we'll probably never know the "true" or "real" reason(s), but it's fodder for the sports pages.

[Gogie]

Oct 25, 2016 5:59:08 GMT -5 franko said:

Oct 24, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

naw, PK was traded because MT (and MB) didn't like him from day 1.

we'll probably never know the "true" or "real" reason(s), but it's fodder for the sports pages.

Maybe it was simply a case of the Habs getting an opportunity to get a better all around player that improved their chances of making a run at the Cup now. I've liked what I've seen so far and in my opinion the Habs are a better TEAM with Weber than they would be with Subban. That might not be the case 3 or 4 years from now, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Too many people trying to read too much into what probably was simply a hockey trade.

[Gogie]

	GP	G	A	PTS	PIM	PPG	PPP	+/-	ATOI	HIT	BLK	TK	GV
Weber	6	2	5	7	10	1	2	+10	26:15	17	11	1	8
Subban	5	2	3	5	8	2	4	-4	24:38	6	14	3	6

Legend:
GP - Games Played
G - Goals
A - Assists
PTS - Points
PIM - Penalties in Minutes
PPG - Power Play Goals
PPP - Power Play Points
ATOI - Average Time on Ice
HIT - Hits
BLK - Blocked Shots
TK - Take-aways
GV - Give-aways

UPDATED THROUGH GAMES OF OCTOBER 24

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Oct 24, 2016 22:37:29 GMT -5 PTH said:

Oct 24, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

La Presse had an article about this as well.

Weise also mentionned getting a call from the Habs on July 1st, he was a bit miffed that he got a call while he wasn't worth calling during the initial feeling-out period.... which to me sounds like he was a plan B or C.

I'm not sure if he was the scapegoat ... edit: unlike some other players who made game-deciding gaffs and they weren't thrown under the bus ... there was plenty of blame to go around last year ... I think Subban's contract was probably a consideration, too ... I appreciate what Weise brought to the table during his tenure in Montreal ... I was disappointed when he signed elsewhere, but the team is doing well just the same ... he also had some good things to say about Therrien, which I wasn't expecting ... good on Weise ...

Cheers.

[CentreHice]

Oct 25, 2016 17:32:31 GMT -5 Skilly said:

2). Why was PKs exuberance and bow and arrow antic after scoring frowned upon, but Radulov's exuberance and sword antic after scoring is considered having fun

Yep...lots of players have celebrations and signature moves.

Does Radulov self-brand with a sword-sheathing graphic/silhouette? Does he self-brand at all? I can't find anything online.

I would imagine that would be the difference between the two....other than a flat-out double-standard.

Instead of being viewed as smart business, Subban's branding was viewed by his detractors as an example of a ME-first mindset. That's the vibe I got from the media, and from reading fan boards...

[franko]

Oct 25, 2016 17:32:31 GMT -5 Skilly said:

Why was PKs exuberance and bow and arrow antic after scoring frowned upon, but Radulov's exuberance and sword antic after scoring is considered having fun

either #becausePK or #becauseMT

[Willie Dog]

PK... Titans 12th man

PK as the 12th Man

[NWTHabsFan]

More PK stuff, including some not so veiled shots at the Foxhole Brothers.

www.latimes.com/sports/ducks/la-sp-pk-subban-elliott-20161025-snap-story.html

[jkr]

Oct 25, 2016 7:52:01 GMT -5 Gogie said:

Oct 25, 2016 5:59:08 GMT -5 franko said:

naw, PK was traded because MT (and MB) didn't like him from day 1.

we'll probably never know the "true" or "real" reason(s), but it's fodder for the sports pages.

Maybe it was simply a case of the Habs getting an opportunity to get a better all around player that improved their chances of making a run at the Cup now. I've liked what I've seen so far and in my opinion the Habs are a better TEAM with Weber than they would be with Subban. That might not be the case 3 or 4 years from now, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Too many people trying to read too much into what probably was simply a hockey trade.

I'm holding off a bit. This is where they were last year at this point.

[Cranky]

Oct 24, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -5 @mattdhf said:

Weise seems to think that PK was traded because management was looking for a scapegoat after last year's miserable season:
www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/weise-says-subban-was-never-a-distraction-in-montreal~979016

Subban needs a photo of him with his name on the back otherwise the brand recognition moment would be lost.....

I like Subban but he's not bigger then the Habs. I have NO problem with his trade other then that Weber is older and a decent, youngish third line player would of erased that.

[seventeen]

the problem I have with it is that PK has the ability to make that great play to lift a team. Weber does all the basic things very well, but he can't create space and time for his teammates like Subban can. It's why I think that at crunch time, I'd rather have a Subban on my team than a Weber. I also think that PK can get better defensively, because that's something you can teach. Weber will not get better offensively because that's something you're born with.
Not to mention the age difference, which is a given.

[Gogie]

Oct 26, 2016 14:56:19 GMT -5 seventeen said:

the problem I have with it is that PK has the ability to make that great play to lift a team. Weber does all the basic things very well, but he can't create space and time for his teammates like Subban can. It's why I think that at crunch time, I'd rather have a Subban on my team than a Weber. I also think that PK can get better defensively, because that's something you can teach. Weber will not get better offensively because that's something you're born with.
Not to mention the age difference, which is a given.

Let's see
PK has reached 15 goals in a season once in 6 seasons and his goals per game average for his career is 0.14.
Weber has reached or exceeded 15 goals in a season 8 times in 11 seasons (4 times in his first 6 seasons) and his goals per game average is 0.22.

They both have hit 50 or more points in a season 3 times; Weber has averaged 0.59 points per game over his career, PK has averaged 0.64 PPG.

A few other random career stats, all on a per game basis
Take aways - Subban 0.36, Weber 0.36
Give aways - Subban 1.13, Weber 0.50
Hits - Subban 1.38, Weber 1.94
Blocked shots - Subban 1.44, Weber 1.40

In my opinion there's little to choose between the two from an offensive perspective - Weber's a better goal scorer and PK's a better play maker. The big difference is defensively - I think Weber is head and shoulders ahead of PK and at 27 I'm not so sure he will ever be able to "learn" enough to be comparable to Weber. The age difference is a factor (4 years) but as I said in an earlier post, I think Weber gives the Habs a better chance to win "now" than PK.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Skilly]

I see CH deleted his post , I was going to take a crack at it ...

The Ten Commandments
Thou shall have no other coach but MT
Before the game, you better listen to he
Take not the name of GM in vain
Nor dare step on the CH profane
Give other players their honor due
Take heed that thou no fun things do
Abstain from celebrating goals you score
Nor give of time off the ice more
And do not lie, but always say what's true
Unless you talk about the things MT will do

[CentreHice]

I just figured...dead horse.

I'm over it...or at least done ruminating on it.

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2016 18:03:48 GMT -5 Gogie said:

Oct 26, 2016 14:56:19 GMT -5 seventeen said:

the problem I have with it is that PK has the ability to make that great play to lift a team. Weber does all the basic things very well, but he can't create space and time for his teammates like Subban can. It's why I think that at crunch time, I'd rather have a Subban on my team than a Weber. I also think that PK can get better defensively, because that's something you can teach. Weber will not get better offensively because that's something you're born with.
Not to mention the age difference, which is a given.

Let's see
PK has reached 15 goals in a season once in 6 seasons and his goals per game average for his career is 0.14.
Weber has reached or exceeded 15 goals in a season 8 times in 11 seasons (4 times in his first 6 seasons) and his goals per game average is 0.22.

They both have hit 50 or more points in a season 3 times; Weber has averaged 0.59 points per game over his career, PK has averaged 0.64 PPG.

A few other random career stats, all on a per game basis
Take aways - Subban 0.36, Weber 0.36
Give aways - Subban 1.13, Weber 0.50
Hits - Subban 1.38, Weber 1.94
Blocked shots - Subban 1.44, Weber 1.40

In my opinion there's little to choose between the two from an offensive perspective - Weber's a better goal scorer and PK's a better play maker. The big difference is defensively - I think Weber is head and shoulders ahead of PK and at 27 I'm not so sure he will ever be able to "learn" enough to be comparable to Weber. The age difference is a factor (4 years) but as I said in an earlier post, I think Weber gives the Habs a better chance to win "now" than PK.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Yeah but, but, but PK's smiles a lot, loves to hear the sound of his own voice and is more entertaining, isn't that what MB should be focusing on to sell tickets personality and entertainment? 

[Gogie]

	GP	G	A	PTS	PIM	PPG	PPP	+/-	ATOI	HIT	BLK	TK	GV
Weber	7	3	6	9	8	2	3	+12	25:00	20	15	1	9
Subban	6	2	3	5	8	2	4	-5	24:31	7	18	3	8

Legend:
GP - Games Played
G - Goals
A - Assists
PTS - Points
PIM - Penalties in Minutes
PPG - Power Play Goals
PPP - Power Play Points
ATOI - Average Time on Ice
HIT - Hits
BLK - Blocked Shots
TK - Take-aways
GV - Give-aways

UPDATED THROUGH GAMES OF OCTOBER 26

[Tankdriver]

Now that Doughty finally got his Norris trophy win (media driven), if Weber keeps this pace up, you got to figure that there will be a push for him to get his first Norris. It doesn't hinder his chances being in the Eastern Conference where there are more eyeballs watching him.

[Forum Ghost]

Oct 27, 2016 7:49:48 GMT -5 Tankdriver said:

Now that Doughty finally got his Norris trophy win (media driven), if Weber keeps this pace up, you got to figure that there will be a push for him to get his first Norris. It doesn't hinder his chances being in the Eastern Conference where there are more eyeballs watching him.

Agreed. Only 7 games in and it seems that he's already getting a lot more recognition than he had in Nashville.

I think that Weber took all the negative responses to the trade and turned that into motivation for a great start to the season. I remember reading an article in July that called the deal, "the worst trade in Canadiens' history". Stuff like that, I'm sure, has motivated Weber to prove all the naysayers wrong. He may say that he didn't read any articles on the trade, but I don't believe him.

[Forum Ghost]

That's Hockey 2Nite breaks down Weber and Subban's games from last night.

I remember seeing Craig Button bash the trade when it happened, so it's funny to see him change his tone now.



www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/about-last-night~981250

[CentreHice]

They are two different types of player...personalities included.

So far, Weber has been an excellent fit in Montreal. That's really all I care about.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Oct 27, 2016 9:08:00 GMT -5 Forum Ghost said:

That's Hockey 2Nite breaks down Weber and Subban's games from last night.

I remember seeing Craig Button bash the trade when it happened, so it's funny to see him change his tone now.



www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/about-last-night~981250

I bashed it, too ... I think PK Subban will eventually light it up in Nashville, but I'm enjoying the streak the team is on right now ... Shea Weber has been a big part of that ...

Cheers.

[Skilly]

The thing I am noticing is that the forwards are coming back deeper into the zone. My worry was always who will be the puck moving defenseman that the Habs game seemed predicated on. But if the forwards are coming deep, then that jives nicely with Weber's game (and Emelin's) where there is short crisp outlet passes. Hopefully they don't get lazy. That also shows some good coaching to recognize they don't have anyone to skate it out and help is needed.

[Bones]

I know it's only 7 games in. But I can honestly say I can't recall in all the time Subban was here if he was ever as dominant on both ends of the ice as Weber has been in this 7 game stint.

[Bones]

Oct 27, 2016 12:45:14 GMT -5 Skilly said:

The thing I am noticing is that the forwards are coming back deeper into the zone. My worry was always who will be the puck moving defenseman that the Habs game seemed predicated on. But if the forwards are coming deep, then that jives nicely with Weber's game (and Emelin's) where there is short crisp outlet passes. Hopefully they don't get lazy. That also shows some good coaching to recognize they don't have anyone to skate it out and help is needed.

I'm not sure why you're surprised, this has always been Therrien's system. It is what he's always wanted the team to do and also why he at times butted heads with Subban. It's also what Price alluded to when he talked about the trade and why Weber was a better fit for their system.

Subban for all his God given talents, and entertaining play, his individualistic style can actually be a detriment to a teams success, no matter what kind of numbers he put up. I hope he fits better in Nashville or he'll have the same problem there as well, because he's never going to change.

[Tankdriver]

Another complacent player that seems to be forgotten/overlooked is Pacioretty. He doesn't back check that much (Ref game vs. Colorado as proof) and likes to hang out at the blue line waiting for those break away passes.

[CentreHice]

Oct 27, 2016 12:49:09 GMT -5 Bones said:

Oct 27, 2016 12:45:14 GMT -5 Skilly said:

The thing I am noticing is that the forwards are coming back deeper into the zone. My worry was always who will be the puck moving defenseman that the Habs game seemed predicated on. But if the forwards are coming deep, then that jives nicely with Weber's game (and Emelin's) where there is short crisp outlet passes. Hopefully they don't get lazy. That also shows some good coaching to recognize they don't have anyone to skate it out and help is needed.

I'm not sure why you're surprised, this has always been Therrien's system. It is what he's always wanted the team to do and also why he at times butted heads with Subban. It's also what Price alluded to when he talked about the trade and why Weber was a better fit for their system.

Subban for all his God given talents, and entertaining play, his individualistic style can actually be a detriment to a teams success, no matter what kind of numbers he put up. I hope he fits better in Nashville or he'll have the same problem there as well, because he's never going to change.

It's one thing to say Subban and Therrien were at odds. That much was obvious from MT's days on L'Antichambre.

But it's quite another to assert that Subban was the reason the whole team didn't play Therrien's system. It's not as if Subban told the forwards to not come back deep to help out.

Perhaps Muller has had some input as to the overall systems, and not just the PP??? Maybe he learned a thing or two from his time with Hitch...and has made some suggestions.

If that's the case, it means that Therrien is open to ideas...and that would be a really good thing, IMO.