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Post by Douper on May 23, 2017 10:03:23 GMT -5
Weber or PK on that team and they are in the finals.
MB failed in bringing in scoring, talent... PK for Weber, that's not the issue because PK doesn't get us by the Rangers. Because he wouldn't have played any better than weber did.
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 10:10:02 GMT -5
PK Subban....trusted by the coach to shut down the other team's top players. Just adds more fuel to the fire. I always thought PK was underappreciated as a defender. Not only does he play defense by controlling the puck, he's also excellent in the D zone, using his strong lower body and quick feet to get to loose pucks and keep things in control. The presumption was Weber was a better defender than PK, and that was a big basis for the trade.... PK is showing that not only is he a more dynamic offensive player, he's also showing his chops as an elite defender every bit as good if not better than Weber. Oh, and how about being a team player? PK was a selfish, undisciplined, me-first player, right? Sorry, I never bought that either. The game plan in Nashville has been to use PK/Eckholm pair as the shutdown pair and it has worked to perfection. Subban isn't racking up points but he doesn't care and they love him in Nashville. As if we needed more evidence that the trade silly, petulant, small-minded move by Bergevin... PK is shoving it right down the throat of Bergevin and the entire old-school Montreal Canadiens organization. Go Preds! Not to nitpick, but wasn't Subban shutting down the other team's top players when he played for Mtl? When Ottawa fans boasted about how much better Karlsson was, didn't we respond by saying Subban brings it both offensively AND defensively every night while playing tougher matchups? Asides from a few benchings (unwarranted imo), PK was usually "The Guy" on our D-line. Truthfully, I see the same PK. I don't think he has changed one bit and I don't give Laviolette much credit for anything regarding PK's game. Ditto for Phil Housley. When you have the best top 4 in the league, you can't really go wrong with your lineup choices. If they still had Weber, I think NSH would still have the best top 4 and would still have made the finals. The emergence of Ellis and Ekholm has been the difference imo - 4 D's that can play 25 min a game... that's rare and precious. Add in a goalie who has been the best in the playoffs, and your chances of reaching the finals are pretty good. Imo, PK had a bigger role when he played for us. So much of our offensive and defensive success revolved around PK. The same now applies with Weber. What we really needed was the addition of a stud #2 or 3 defenseman, but instead we just swapped #1D's and hoped Beaulieu would emerge as #2, which he didn't. |
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Post by Boston_Habs on May 23, 2017 10:36:07 GMT -5
For sure, PK is the same player he was with us. It just wasn't good enough for Bergevin. My point there was a sarcastic did at the detractors who thought PK was too much of a hot dog and not the "tough as nails" defender Weber is.
The Josi-Ellis-Subban-Ekholm quartet is to die for and shows that there are multiple ways to build a winner. I think what cost Nashville this season more than anything was shaky goaltending from Rinne, but that's been solved in the playoffs.
Not having Johansen is a tough blow... it will be interesting to see if a stud back end, excellent goaltending, but not a ton of offense will be enough to win a Cup.
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2017 10:44:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the trade can't be reversed and the question that remains is whether or not Marc Bergevin can be trusted to improve the team. The facts to date suggest not. But that's a topic for another thread.
Full props to Nashville for getting to the SC final. It also confirms that you don't need an elite goalie to do so. Rinne's history has been inconsistent and his stats don't suggest an elite goalie. A decent one? For sure. You need a decent goalie to get hot at the right time. I'm not all that confident Nashville can go through to win the Cup. With Johansen I'd give them good odds, but it's really difficult to succeed without a top centre and not likely to happen. They managed to win 2 games in that state but can they win 4 more? Laviolette won the cup with a bunch of journeymen defensemen in 2006, so it's possible if your goalie is hot enough, but I don't like the odds.
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Post by mikeg on May 23, 2017 10:56:28 GMT -5
I can only now dream of a Boucher lead Sens team making a magical comeback and making to the SCF. Imagine that... player we traded away vs. coach we could have had... if that does not put the final nail in Bergevin's coffin for Molson then I give up.
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 10:58:04 GMT -5
Truthfully, I see the same PK. I don't think he has changed one bit and I don't give Laviolette much credit for anything regarding PK's game. Ditto for Phil Housley. What's changed for PK is the support/due he's getting from his bosses. Coming to the rink every day knowing that you're appreciated and valued for what you bring to the table. That's huge for a player/team. I agree...PK on the Habs doesn't get us to the Finals. We're not as well-built...(who's fault is that?).....and he would likely still be facing some degree of animosity from Bergevin. Not the same atmosphere as Nashville, that would be certain. |
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2017 11:06:58 GMT -5
Truthfully, I see the same PK. I don't think he has changed one bit and I don't give Laviolette much credit for anything regarding PK's game. Ditto for Phil Housley. When you have the best top 4 in the league, you can't really go wrong with your lineup choices. If they still had Weber, I think NSH would still have the best top 4 and would still have made the finals. The emergence of Ellis and Ekholm has been the difference imo - 4 D's that can play 25 min a game... that's rare and precious. Add in a goalie who has been the best in the playoffs, and your chances of reaching the finals are pretty good. Imo, PK had a bigger role when he played for us. So much of our offensive and defensive success revolved around PK. The same now applies with Weber. What we really needed was the addition of a stud #2 or 3 defenseman, but instead we just swapped #1D's and hoped Beaulieu would emerge as #2, which he didn't. I can't agree with you in one aspect, though you are right overall. I think PK is different. He isn't rushing as much, probably because he doesn't have to. The other D, especially Josi, are able to do that, so the pressure on PK to provide offense isn't the same. I also think he's still not 100% but maybe that's because I see him playing differently and attribute that to an injury rather than Laviolette's system or PK adjusting to a new team. I might also question if Nashville would have the same top 4 with Weber rather than PK. Frankly, I don't think they'd be any better defensively, as PK has proven. But PK's offensive numbers at even strength are better than Weber's. His possession numbers are better and his transition game is much better. I suspect we will see more of Weber's shortcomings as the league gets even faster. Anaheim and Nashville get it. Their defense corps are quick, mobile and great at transition. They're not big (mostly) but all their D can skate really well. Bieksa is the worst skater on the Ducks and he'll be replaced by Theodore next season. IN any case, your point is on point. Weber for Subban did nothing for the Habs. It was frankly a stupid move motivated by personal issues held by Therrien and Bergevin which pushed back the team's path to the Cup. Bergevin hasn't changed. I suspect the executive office pushed him to fire Therrien rather than him truly coming to that decision himself. Why do I think that? He's offered perhaps the worst minor league coach around, another contract. Did Berg graduate from Trump University? From every perspective that's another dumb decision. And again, it has nothing to do with hockey. When will that get through to Molson? |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on May 23, 2017 11:43:53 GMT -5
IN any case, your point is on point. Weber for Subban did nothing for the Habs. It was frankly a stupid move motivated by personal issues held by Therrien and Bergevin which pushed back the team's path to the Cup. Bergevin hasn't changed. I suspect the executive office pushed him to fire Therrien rather than him truly coming to that decision himself. Why do I think that? He's offered perhaps the worst minor league coach around, another contract. Did Berg graduate from Trump University? From every perspective that's another dumb decision. And again, it has nothing to do with hockey. When will that get through to Molson? When? Later this summer if the Preds win and PK brings back the Cup to the Children's Hospital. All the kids and the Hospital are sending congratulatory tweets and messages cheering on PK and the Preds. If PK was ever to win and bring that Cup back, there would be thousands more showing up to be part of that experience. Certain parts of the media and tons and tons of fans would make a field day of it. That would be a nightmare for Molson and Bergevin. They don't make foxholes that deep. For some this would be about the trade, but for so many more it would be about the player they adored. A lot will eventually stop caring and cheering him on as time passes, but this was a player who was a hero for a current generation of Habs fans. That does not turn off easily, especially since it is still so fresh. I am cheering for PK, not against Shea Weber. If it just so happens that it makes Molson and Bergevin squirm a bit and realize that continued mediocrity is not acceptable with this fan base, that would be icing on the cake. I am grasping at straws here a bit because I am not sure what else will prompt some positive change. I want the 25th Cup. I want it while I can still remember it, darn it!! For now, Go Preds. Quite a Cinderella run so far. |
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Post by blny on May 23, 2017 11:50:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the trade can't be reversed and the question that remains is whether or not Marc Bergevin can be trusted to improve the team. The facts to date suggest not. But that's a topic for another thread. Full props to Nashville for getting to the SC final. It also confirms that you don't need an elite goalie to do so. Rinne's history has been inconsistent and his stats don't suggest an elite goalie. A decent one? For sure. You need a decent goalie to get hot at the right time. I'm not all that confident Nashville can go through to win the Cup. With Johansen I'd give them good odds, but it's really difficult to succeed without a top centre and not likely to happen. They managed to win 2 games in that state but can they win 4 more? Laviolette won the cup with a bunch of journeymen defensemen in 2006, so it's possible if your goalie is hot enough, but I don't like the odds. Timing is everything. Elite at the right time. Last time the Hawks won, Crawford's poor play almost cost them the first round. Darling came in and stood on his head. Second round, Crawford gets back in and they go on to win. Quick has had his ups and downs. Murray was good during the season, but didn't have to play to the level he did in the playoffs last year. I think it boils down to having a little of everything. You have to have different players step up at different times. You need a goalie to steal a game now and then. Rinne did that in the first round. You need your defense to shutdown the other team. They've had that. You need different people to score. The defense lead the charge through a round and a half. Johansen and Neal got it going in the second round. Sissons stepped up last night. One player will typically stand out above all, but it's a total effort in most cases. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 12:04:37 GMT -5
Subban came out of the penalty box last night and knew he was a "forward" at that time. He took the puck from his own side of centre, made a move or two, and rushed it deep into the Ducks' zone--making a nice pass out front.
If the Preds suffer another key forward injury in the Finals, I can see Laviolette using Subban up there at times. He still has the offensive instincts, vision, strength/tenacity, and skill to make it a worthwhile coaching decision, IMO.
RE: The opinion that the Preds would've made the Finals with Weber.
All conjecture....but Weber's not as quick as Subban, and might not have been able to contain Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler et al quite as well. Getting to the puck first is key. Engaging them quicker is key. Even a second makes a big difference.
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 12:15:20 GMT -5
Truthfully, I see the same PK. I don't think he has changed one bit and I don't give Laviolette much credit for anything regarding PK's game. Ditto for Phil Housley. What's changed for PK is the support/due he's getting from his bosses. Coming to the rink every day knowing that you're appreciated and valued for what you bring to the table. That's huge for a player/team. I would agree, that certainly is huge for nearly all players/teams, but not for PK. PK is just built of different stuff. He will (and did) overcome all adversity thrown his way. He won a Norris while wearing probably the shortest leash of all time. |
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 12:33:09 GMT -5
Truthfully, I see the same PK. I don't think he has changed one bit and I don't give Laviolette much credit for anything regarding PK's game. Ditto for Phil Housley. When you have the best top 4 in the league, you can't really go wrong with your lineup choices. If they still had Weber, I think NSH would still have the best top 4 and would still have made the finals. The emergence of Ellis and Ekholm has been the difference imo - 4 D's that can play 25 min a game... that's rare and precious. Add in a goalie who has been the best in the playoffs, and your chances of reaching the finals are pretty good. Imo, PK had a bigger role when he played for us. So much of our offensive and defensive success revolved around PK. The same now applies with Weber. What we really needed was the addition of a stud #2 or 3 defenseman, but instead we just swapped #1D's and hoped Beaulieu would emerge as #2, which he didn't. I can't agree with you in one aspect, though you are right overall. I think PK is different. He isn't rushing as much, probably because he doesn't have to. The other D, especially Josi, are able to do that, so the pressure on PK to provide offense isn't the same. I also think he's still not 100% but maybe that's because I see him playing differently and attribute that to an injury rather than Laviolette's system or PK adjusting to a new team. I might also question if Nashville would have the same top 4 with Weber rather than PK. Frankly, I don't think they'd be any better defensively, as PK has proven. But PK's offensive numbers at even strength are better than Weber's. His possession numbers are better and his transition game is much better. I suspect we will see more of Weber's shortcomings as the league gets even faster. Anaheim and Nashville get it. Their defense corps are quick, mobile and great at transition. They're not big (mostly) but all their D can skate really well. Bieksa is the worst skater on the Ducks and he'll be replaced by Theodore next season. IN any case, your point is on point. Weber for Subban did nothing for the Habs. It was frankly a stupid move motivated by personal issues held by Therrien and Bergevin which pushed back the team's path to the Cup. Bergevin hasn't changed. I suspect the executive office pushed him to fire Therrien rather than him truly coming to that decision himself. Why do I think that? He's offered perhaps the worst minor league coach around, another contract. Did Berg graduate from Trump University? From every perspective that's another dumb decision. And again, it has nothing to do with hockey. When will that get through to Molson? I dunno, I think Weber would still give them a great looking top 4. Hockey-wise, I don't value PK and Weber very differently: PK: Better mobility, better playmaking and puck distribution Weber: More goals, bigger and stronger, apparently intimidating Pros and cons of each, but they balance out pretty well, at least for now in the current NHL. But where they differ imo is their ability and motivation to defy the odds. I think PK thrives off that challenge and that's really valuable in the playoffs. You just cannot break him. 7 seasons of relative oppression in Montreal and PK was always one of the handful of NHLers who actually visibly enjoyed playing the game. Weber, who is extremely valuable in his own hockey way, has never had to overcome any such oppression. Unless of course being called Man Mountain hurts his feelings. 24/7 I would choose the player who has made a living proving his doubters wrong. We saw him do it to others while he was a Hab, and now he's doing it to the people who traded him away, and I'm not surprised in the least. |
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2017 13:06:17 GMT -5
Last year, after the trade, Bergevin said he hated that Subban didn't hate to lose. He based that on the fact that after a loss, PK was able to go out and live his life as if the loss never happened. Bergevin prefers a guy who gets angy, breaks furniture, starts late game scrums and shows us how childish he is. What a terrible judgment process. I don't believe that's the case, but it was certainly another factor that annoyed Bergevin. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Mind you, I wouldn't mind owning the furniture store near Bergevin's house right now. There's a few sales to be made.
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 13:21:20 GMT -5
What's changed for PK is the support/due he's getting from his bosses. Coming to the rink every day knowing that you're appreciated and valued for what you bring to the table. That's huge for a player/team. I would agree, that certainly is huge for nearly all players/teams, but not for PK. PK is just built of different stuff. He will (and did) overcome all adversity thrown his way. He won a Norris while wearing probably the shortest leash of all time. While Subban has definitely formed a force-field with which to deflect adversity....he still knows that tone-at-the-top makes a difference--even for himself. Recently, he said.... "It’s the feeling, you know?" Subban said. "The chemistry our team has starts with, I believe, ownership and management. I believe that’s where it starts. Based on the atmosphere you create around the work premises and work environment is how guys are going to feel when they come in to the rink. If you’re going to treat guys in a way where they’re going to love coming to the rink every day and love working hard and practicing and getting better, that’s what’s going to happen. If you don’t create that environment, it makes things a little tougher. I think the Preds have done a great, great job of creating an atmosphere that makes guys want to play there, want to be there." |
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 14:08:18 GMT -5
I would agree, that certainly is huge for nearly all players/teams, but not for PK. PK is just built of different stuff. He will (and did) overcome all adversity thrown his way. He won a Norris while wearing probably the shortest leash of all time. While Subban has definitely formed a force-field with which to deflect adversity....he still knows that tone-at-the-top makes a difference--even for himself. Recently, he said.... "It’s the feeling, you know?" Subban said. "The chemistry our team has starts with, I believe, ownership and management. I believe that’s where it starts. Based on the atmosphere you create around the work premises and work environment is how guys are going to feel when they come in to the rink. If you’re going to treat guys in a way where they’re going to love coming to the rink every day and love working hard and practicing and getting better, that’s what’s going to happen. If you don’t create that environment, it makes things a little tougher. I think the Preds have done a great, great job of creating an atmosphere that makes guys want to play there, want to be there."It sounds damning, that's for sure. But I would be weary to look too deep into his comments and infer that there's added meaning. He has provided countless similar soundbites praising Mtl front office, coaches, fans, etc. I'm pretty sure I remember him saying the Habs dressing room was the tightest knit group that he had ever been a part of. When he says that, he's not taking shots at his former Hamilton or Belleville dressing rooms. He's just pumping the tires of the group that he is playing for/with, as a good teammate should. And quite eloquently I might add. But really, after such a trade, what can PK say about his current team that won't sound like a passive aggressive dig? "It all starts with the coach... " "We have the best leadership in the league..." "Every single player on this team believes in one another..." "This dressing room feels like a family..." But the truth is, we'll never know if there's intent behind his words. I just personally don't think there is. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 14:34:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's a direct slam on the Habs....
But, after what happened during the latter part of 2015-16, I'd venture a guess that Subban's mind might've changed about Montreal's management/coaching. He knew he was being scapegoated, even though he was our leading scorer at the time of his injury.
At his exit interview that season, he was very evasive about the question, "Michel Therrien will be back next year. What are your thoughts?" I can't find the quote, but I'm sure he skirted the question altogether. The answer certainly wasn't, "Great! Glad to hear it! I love playing for Michel!"
Then they got rid of the analytics guy whose report said that Subban should not be traded for Weber.
He knows Bergevin and Therrien wanted him out....no matter what.
He also knows that Poile and Laviolette want him IN....no matter what.
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Post by seventeen on May 23, 2017 14:45:06 GMT -5
All hockey players praise their current team, because it's what is needed and expected. You'd have to approach them after a case of beer and a half dozen shooters to get them to say what they really think.
You can usually feel their comments are truer when they don't have to search for words and when it's immediate. That's the guiding point for me.
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 14:58:34 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's a direct slam on the Habs.... But, after what happened during the latter part of 2015-16, I'd venture a guess that Subban's mind might've changed about Montreal's management/coaching. He knew he was being scapegoated, even though he was our leading scorer at the time of his injury. At his exit interview that season, he was very evasive about the question, "Michel Therrien will be back next year. What are your thoughts?" I can't find the quote, but I'm sure he skirted the question altogether. The answer certainly wasn't, "Great! Glad to hear it! I love playing for Michel!" Then they got rid of the analytics guy whose report said that Subban should not be traded for Weber. He knows Bergevin and Therrien wanted him out....no matter what. He also knows that Poile and Laviolette want him IN....no matter what. I agree with respect to Therien. That relationship coach was clearly an issue and I don't think PK did much to hide that. But the organization and front office as a whole? PK was always calling it first class, and I think he meant it. |
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Post by Skilly on May 23, 2017 15:15:23 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the trade can't be reversed and the question that remains is whether or not Marc Bergevin can be trusted to improve the team. The facts to date suggest not. But that's a topic for another thread. Full props to Nashville for getting to the SC final. It also confirms that you don't need an elite goalie to do so. Rinne's history has been inconsistent and his stats don't suggest an elite goalie. A decent one? For sure. You need a decent goalie to get hot at the right time. I'm not all that confident Nashville can go through to win the Cup. With Johansen I'd give them good odds, but it's really difficult to succeed without a top centre and not likely to happen. They managed to win 2 games in that state but can they win 4 more? Laviolette won the cup with a bunch of journeymen defensemen in 2006, so it's possible if your goalie is hot enough, but I don't like the odds. If I posted Price's and Rinne's stats, I bet you would not be able to tell which ones belong to which goalie |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 15:16:42 GMT -5
From a player's perspective....IMO....
Your head coach is the main atmosphere control centre.
If he stays, it means that your GM approves of what he's doing.
If the GM stays, it means your ownership/board approves of what he's doing.
A player has to keep a positive spin on things....so positive things are said.....and negative things are avoided/skirted.
Once removed, though....
Kudos to Subban for playing at a high level through 4 years of Therrien's miasma--winning a Norris in spite of it.
He's a winner.
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Post by Skilly on May 23, 2017 15:17:24 GMT -5
For sure, PK is the same player he was with us. It just wasn't good enough for Bergevin. My point there was a sarcastic did at the detractors who thought PK was too much of a hot dog and not the "tough as nails" defender Weber is. The Josi-Ellis-Subban-Ekholm quartet is to die for and shows that there are multiple ways to build a winner. I think what cost Nashville this season more than anything was shaky goaltending from Rinne, but that's been solved in the playoffs. Not having Johansen is a tough blow... it will be interesting to see if a stud back end, excellent goaltending, but not a ton of offense will be enough to win a Cup. Not a ton of offense? They are the second highest scoring team in the playoffs. 2.94 goals per game, Pittsburgh is first at 3.18. If Montreal had 2.94 goals , we'd still be playing |
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Post by Boston_Habs on May 23, 2017 15:19:42 GMT -5
I think Weber would still give them a great looking top 4. Hockey-wise, I don't value PK and Weber very differently: You lost me there.... unless you are talking about the value to Nashville. In that case, I suppose if you put Weber back on the Preds then that's still a great top 4 because you still have Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm. But given our blueline, you could argue that PK was far more valuable to us than he is to Nashville. He doesn't need to do it all there like he did here. But that's yet another argument against the trade. The fact that Markov, pushing 40, is STILL our best possession dman is a sad statement. Beaulieu was supposed to emerge as a top 4 guy and he ended up as a healthy scratch in the playoffs. Weber is a nice piece IF you have other pieces around him, but we don't. Throw in the difference in age and the contracts....you could argue there is quality in the pipeline with Sergachev but he didn't exactly have a dominant season (or WJC for that matter) and by the time he's a top 4 guy, Markov will be gone, Weber will be 34, and we'll still be plugging holes while PK will still be in his prime in Nashville. |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 16:06:12 GMT -5
Weber or PK on that team and they are in the finals. Could be....but our analytics report strongly recommended to not trade Subban for Weber. Which means (if you're a believer in those rubrics) better D analytics went to Nashville, and weaker D analytics came to Montreal. Weber, it was claimed, made our team better. Out in Round 1. Two steps below where we went with Subban. Subban, it appears, made the Preds better. Stanley Cup Finals. Two steps beyond where they went with Weber--the very next year. While I know it can't be reduced solely to Weber/Subban.....I'm just going by our club's claim made at the time of the trade. |
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Post by Skilly on May 23, 2017 16:25:16 GMT -5
Last year, after the trade, Bergevin said he hated that Subban didn't hate to lose. He based that on the fact that after a loss, PK was able to go out and live his life as if the loss never happened. Bergevin prefers a guy who gets angy, breaks furniture, starts late game scrums and shows us how childish he is. What a terrible judgment process. I don't believe that's the case, but it was certainly another factor that annoyed Bergevin. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Mind you, I wouldn't mind owning the furniture store near Bergevin's house right now. There's a few sales to be made. We all blame Bergevin and Therrien for the Subban trade. But you know, there are some that are suggesting it was his teammates that wanted him traded. And I recall hearing (or reading), that when PK first arrived in Nashville that his line dancing, and football jersey waving was frowned upon by some of his team mates. Now it might be a case of location and less exposure, but I don't see PK being PK as much this year. And I'm not talking about the playoffs, everyone gets excited there, I'm talking about throughout the year. Could it be, the Nashville dressing room nipped it in the bud from the start? There is no more tunnel vision with the slap slot, no more looking for cameras. I dunno, I'm just tossing out ideas. I've read stuff on here where he is including teammates in his interviews, in Montreal he was jumping in on team mates being interviewed. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a slight change I noticed. I still hate the trade, because of the return. The idea to trade Subban or Price was right, if they actually had an idea of what we need, and it appears they don't. |
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Post by frozone on May 23, 2017 17:31:58 GMT -5
I think Weber would still give them a great looking top 4. Hockey-wise, I don't value PK and Weber very differently: You lost me there.... unless you are talking about the value to Nashville. In that case, I suppose if you put Weber back on the Preds then that's still a great top 4 because you still have Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm. But given our blueline, you could argue that PK was far more valuable to us than he is to Nashville. He doesn't need to do it all there like he did here. But that's yet another argument against the trade. The fact that Markov, pushing 40, is STILL our best possession dman is a sad statement. Beaulieu was supposed to emerge as a top 4 guy and he ended up as a healthy scratch in the playoffs. Weber is a nice piece IF you have other pieces around him, but we don't. Throw in the difference in age and the contracts....you could argue there is quality in the pipeline with Sergachev but he didn't exactly have a dominant season (or WJC for that matter) and by the time he's a top 4 guy, Markov will be gone, Weber will be 34, and we'll still be plugging holes while PK will still be in his prime in Nashville. I'm not talking about NSH or MTL. I'm talking about in a vacuum, the pros and cons of each player balance out pretty equally. A Norris winning puck mover with serious defensive chops... or a feared stay at home d-man who scores 15-20+ goals per season. If I have to pick one, I choose PK because puck possession is more important right now in today's game, and PK's character is tops. We're all aware of Weber's shortcomings. But let's not forget that Subban has his warts too. For such a great skater, he's not that fast and I think his PP game is a bit overrated. Also, I worry about his back injuries and how that might take away from his prime years and career longevity. They each have their pros and cons, and they more or less balance out imo. If we're talking about Montreal specifically, yes we needed more puck possession players. In that sense, it was idiotic to trade Subban. And Eller for that matter. But we also needed more goals. Weber helped provide more goals, but hurt us on puck possession. He made our team different, not worse and certainly not better. Now that we have Weber, we need a legit puck moving D. Round and round we go. |
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Post by Willie Dog on May 23, 2017 18:04:04 GMT -5
Last year, after the trade, Bergevin said he hated that Subban didn't hate to lose. He based that on the fact that after a loss, PK was able to go out and live his life as if the loss never happened. Bergevin prefers a guy who gets angy, breaks furniture, starts late game scrums and shows us how childish he is. What a terrible judgment process. I don't believe that's the case, but it was certainly another factor that annoyed Bergevin. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Mind you, I wouldn't mind owning the furniture store near Bergevin's house right now. There's a few sales to be made. We all blame Bergevin and Therrien for the Subban trade. But you know, there are some that are suggesting it was his teammates that wanted him traded. And I recall hearing (or reading), that when PK first arrived in Nashville that his line dancing, and football jersey waving was frowned upon by some of his team mates. Now it might be a case of location and less exposure, but I don't see PK being PK as much this year. And I'm not talking about the playoffs, everyone gets excited there, I'm talking about throughout the year. Could it be, the Nashville dressing room nipped it in the bud from the start? There is no more tunnel vision with the slap slot, no more looking for cameras. I dunno, I'm just tossing out ideas. I've read stuff on here where he is including teammates in his interviews, in Montreal he was jumping in on team mates being interviewed. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a slight change I noticed. Could that be Phil Housley influence... a star D man that deserves respect? |
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Post by Willie Dog on May 23, 2017 18:06:04 GMT -5
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Post by Skilly on May 23, 2017 18:18:40 GMT -5
You lost me there.... unless you are talking about the value to Nashville. In that case, I suppose if you put Weber back on the Preds then that's still a great top 4 because you still have Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm. But given our blueline, you could argue that PK was far more valuable to us than he is to Nashville. He doesn't need to do it all there like he did here. But that's yet another argument against the trade. The fact that Markov, pushing 40, is STILL our best possession dman is a sad statement. Beaulieu was supposed to emerge as a top 4 guy and he ended up as a healthy scratch in the playoffs. Weber is a nice piece IF you have other pieces around him, but we don't. Throw in the difference in age and the contracts....you could argue there is quality in the pipeline with Sergachev but he didn't exactly have a dominant season (or WJC for that matter) and by the time he's a top 4 guy, Markov will be gone, Weber will be 34, and we'll still be plugging holes while PK will still be in his prime in Nashville. I'm not talking about NSH or MTL. I'm talking about in a vacuum, the pros and cons of each player balance out pretty equally. A Norris winning puck mover with serious defensive chops... or a feared stay at home d-man who scores 15-20+ goals per season. If I have to pick one, I choose PK because puck possession is more important right now in today's game, and PK's character is tops. We're all aware of Weber's shortcomings. But let's not forget that Subban has his warts too. For such a great skater, he's not that fast and I think his PP game is a bit overrated. Also, I worry about his back injuries and how that might take away from his prime years and career longevity. They each have their pros and cons, and they more or less balance out imo. If we're talking about Montreal specifically, yes we needed more puck possession players. In that sense, it was idiotic to trade Subban. And Eller for that matter. But we also needed more goals. Weber helped provide more goals, but hurt us on puck possession. He made our team different, not worse and certainly not better. Now that we have Weber, we need a legit puck moving D. Round and round we go. I don't think Weber provided more goals. We had 5 more goals on the season, and it was solely due to OT goals where Weber hardly played. That's not even getting into the Subban providing more space for his team mates and his assists ... I don't think we beat New York if we had Subban, for the very fact that we didn't add more goals |
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Post by CentreHice on May 23, 2017 19:23:11 GMT -5
From the article WD posted above. Andrew Berkshire...but nonetheless, he's using data. Perhaps our former analytics guy, Matt Pfeffer, was...ummm...correct....
It’s high time that Subban gets some of the respect he deserves as not only an offensive defenceman, but an all-around powerhouse at the position. The data has been saying he’s among the top-three defenders in the world for the past six or seven years. Perception needs to catch up with that reality.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 20:38:13 GMT -5
Ice tilted in Pittsburgh's favour. Spent all of the 2nd period thus far entirely in Ottawa's zone.
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