Duchene

[folatre]

Would Bergevin be tarred and feathered for turning Pacioretty into Duchene, assuming the only other meaningful asset given up is Habs first rounder next June?

[seventeen]

Yes I'd tar and feather him. Duchene is not worth more than Patches even up.

[folatre]

The reaction of all of us when we heard this one was "come on that proposal stinks for all three clubs." It's funny, I remember when I was a kid my father told me "that's human nature, if no one is elated about a deal then it's probably a fair one." But this seems to be case where fans of all three clubs dislike it because it could turn out bad even though at least in theory everyone is getting something they need.

Montreal gives up Pacioretty and a first rounder for Duchene. To say goodbye to 35 goals is a big issue, though if you assume Duchene can score 23-26 with good linemates on an above average Montreal team and perhaps make the guys playing with him a few goals better then the deal may not harm the Habs offensively. To give up 2018 first rounder to Colorado should not be acutely painful unless Price is injured. So what is wrong for Montreal? Duchene's future is the issue, if you are going to trade your captain then you expect the asset in return is controllable for more seasons than the departing captain.

What is wrong for Philadelphia? They are giving up a nice defense prospect for a first line sniper they can only count on for a couple of seasons. I suppose the main issue for the Flyers besides whether Sanheim develops into stud top pair d-man is whether Flyers actually care about making the playoffs in 2017-18 or the following season. Hextall seems to be zen master of managing a once upon time demanding fan base through massively reduced expectations. But come on, he is basically spending to the cap every season and he has Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds in their prime, so you would think at some point ownership may wonder what the heck are we doing keeping so many expensive veterans if this is a rebuild that takes like five seasons to come to fruition.

Well, what is positive here for Sakic? He receives a very highly rated d-man prospect who looks ready play in the NHL this season. He receives a first round pick from Montreal. But what is wrong for Colorado? The kid is not proven at all in NHL so it is hard to say he is future star. Also, Sakic is now prisoner of expectations. He turned down an offer from Islanders that seems somewhat superior to this so how the heck does he accept this without looking like a fool?

[BadCompany]

Unless its a "picks and prospects" type of deal at this point I'm willing to roll the dice on Galchenyuk/Plekanec/Danault/Drouin/Shaw down the middle. May the best two win.

Pacioretty has outscored Duchene the last three years in a row. Last year by a wide margin. Duchene outpointed him by 10 in 2013-14, but that was the year Pacioretty had 39 goals. Duchene also outpointed Pacioretty during the lockout year, but by a mere four points. By and large Pacioretty has been as good, if not better, than Duchene.

And WE are the ones throwing in the extra pick? No thanks. I'll pay a lot in future capital, but I'm not giving up our top goal scorer and captain. That's just filling one hole by creating another.

[Tankdriver]

Aug 14, 2017 8:17:53 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

Unless its a "picks and prospects" type of deal at this point I'm willing to roll the dice on Galchenyuk/Plekanec/Danault/Drouin/Shaw down the middle. May the best two win.

Pacioretty has outscored Duchene the last three years in a row. Last year by a wide margin. Duchene outpointed him by 10 in 2013-14, but that was the year Pacioretty had 39 goals. Duchene also outpointed Pacioretty during the lockout year, but by a mere four points. By and large Pacioretty has been as good, if not better, than Duchene.

And WE are the ones throwing in the extra pick? No thanks. I'll pay a lot in future capital, but I'm not giving up our top goal scorer and captain. That's just filling one hole by creating another.

But that is the MB way of doing things!

[blny]

Eklund pulled that Pacioretty for Sanheim deal out of thin air a couple of weeks ago. At one time, he did actually have a source or two within the Flyers organization. Now that Hextall is there, that's no longer the case.

I've suggested moving Max for lhd, but it would be for a Cam Fowler type. Forget the center aspect. It's not getting addressed this summer imo.

[seventeen]

When did Travis Sanheim turn into the second coming of Erik Karlsson? Hextall would be yelling, "Start the car" if that deal ever went through. Sanheim scored about .5 PPG in the AHL, which isn't bad, but it's hardly likely to propel him into Pacioretty and Duchene territory. Would you trade Patches for a 2nd pairing dman? Course not, and that's likely where Sanheim projects. Nice prospect but not that good.

[folatre]

I don't know what it is, but most Flyers fans dislike the idea.

[seventeen]

Aug 14, 2017 13:16:55 GMT -5 folatre said:

I don't know what it is, but most Flyers fans dislike the idea.

Don't hire them on your scouting staff.

[blny]

Aug 14, 2017 13:16:55 GMT -5 folatre said:

I don't know what it is, but most Flyers fans dislike the idea.

IMO, the reason most dislike it is because they believe Pacioretty is outside their window. Max's contract is up when they are of the opinion they'll be in a prime position to contend. He'll be 30, in need of a big raise, and years older than their core group (that young D core, Konecny, etc).

[folatre]

blny, I suppose this is what the makes the pursuit of first line centre so difficult. It is rebuilding type clubs that occasionally make one available but to make the deal happen it is far better to have a nice stockpile of high end prospects to satisfy needs of club going through rebuild.

And unfortunately for Montreal, there is a scarcity of genuinely high end prospects in the organisation.

The kind of teams that would place a high value on Pacioretty or even Gallagher are contenders and contenders are not subtracting high end centres. The very few teams that might have a solution for Habs centre problem do not place much value guys like Pacioretty and Gallagher.

[blny]

Aug 14, 2017 19:01:39 GMT -5 folatre said:

blny, I suppose this is what the makes the pursuit of first line centre so difficult. It is rebuilding type clubs that occasionally make one available but to make the deal happen it is far better to have a nice stockpile of high end prospects to satisfy needs of club going through rebuild.

And unfortunately for Montreal, there is a scarcity of genuinely high end prospects in the organisation.

The kind of teams that would place a high value on Pacioretty or even Gallagher are contenders and contenders are not subtracting high end centres. The very few teams that might have a solution for Habs centre problem do not place much value guys like Pacioretty and Gallagher.

Definitely a double-edged sword.

[seventeen]

Instead of Duchene, might one attempt to pry Tyson Jost from Colorado? The problem there is that he may be a force in 3 years (about the time Ryan Poehling can contribute too). Don't we keep coming back to the fact that 'now' is simply not the right time? Price should still be at his best in 3 years, but not Weber.

[folatre]

I liked Jost in his draft year. I don't follow ncaa hockey so I'm not sure if people think he is ahead or behind schedule for a guy drafted in top half of first round. Assuming he is more or less on schedule, it is likely Sakic sees no incentive to move him.

Due to fact that Duchene is basically the only 1C on the trade block right now, it is natural people will continue to monitor the situation as it relates to Montreal. Unfortunately, Colorado is such a mess (likely to be worst in the league again), good to very good NHL players in their mid to late 20s simply do not interest the Avalanche organization even if they are on reasonable contracts.

[folatre]

It looks to be holdout time for Duchene. Sakic mishandled things here since it was not Duchene last season who initiated the process.

Pat Brisson is heavyweight behind the scenes and Sakic is about to feel the pinch. It is almost certain that Sakic is going to sell for less than offers he received in June. Of course, it is shame that Bergevin has so little to offer of interest to Colorado.

[BadCompany]

Eliotte Friedman floated a Subban-for-Duchene rumor the other day.

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-making-sense-matt-duchenes-situation/

Duchene would love to go to Nashville, and the Predators have been a legit pursuer. In fact, a couple of players said they heard this summer about rumours of a Duchene for PK Subban deal.

That's quite the asking price.

[folatre]

Elite #1 d-men (top 10-12 in league) are a lot tougher to find than non-elite 1C (I like Duchene but for me not one of the best 15-20 centres). Sakic would have to add.

[seventeen]

Sept 13, 2017 13:54:10 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

Eliotte Friedman floated a Subban-for-Duchene rumor the other day.

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-making-sense-matt-duchenes-situation/

Duchene would love to go to Nashville, and the Predators have been a legit pursuer. In fact, a couple of players said they heard this summer about rumours of a Duchene for PK Subban deal.

That's quite the asking price.

Silly, IMO. I've also read more than a few scouting assessment of Duchene and guess what? Most guys think he's a winger, not a centre. So, not only are you exchanging a top 5 dman, top 10 at worst, in the NHL for a decent forward, but that forward isn't even at the position that makes sense. It sounds to me very much like a PK hater rumour, just to run him down some more.

Not to mention that PK has a no movement clause in place and I'm sure Denver is at the top of his list of places to be.

[BadCompany]

I think it’s a pretty dumb rumour too, BUT to play devil’s advocate:

* PK’s NMC became void once we traded him before it kicked in. Not sure why, but it did.

* Duchene took the second highest number of faceoffs for the Avs last year, after MacKinnon. A pretty clear indicator that he played most of the season as a center. Whether he should have or not is another debate, but there is no question he has been playing as a center.

* The Predators are in just as big a need for a top 6 center as we are. They have Johansen, who only had 61 points last year, and Bonino, with 37, as their top two centers right now.

* The Predators, as we all know, have outstanding depth on the blueline. If you’re going to deal from a position of strength to address a weakness…

* Speaking of weaknesses, the Avs currently only have three defensemen under contract, and one of those is Mark Barberio.

Value-wise, on a player-for-player basis, the Avs make out like bandits. But as we all know getting that top 2 center isn’t all that easy. Who else is on the market? Tavares? Not yet. The Islanders are desperate to keep him (as they should be). Giroux? Perhaps, but that contract… Who else? Again, I don’t think it’s a reasonable trade, but IF the Preds were to do it, with that loaded blueline (even with Ellis out and Subban gone), wouldn’t they be considered favorites to once again come out of the West?

Nashville isn’t negotiating, per se, with Sakic. They’re negotiating AGAINST Montreal, Columbus, Carolina, the Rangers, and so on. None of those teams can beat a Subban offer.

[blny]

Preds go into the season with just over $6 million in cap space. They're very fortunate to have Josi, Ekholm and Ellis signed to very, very, affordable deals. Hartnell, McLeod, Emelin, Weber, Irwin and Bitetto are all UFA-to-be. Those players add up to just under $7 million. What am I getting at? They're in good shape to make a compelling push for Tavares.

IMO, if they wanted to trade for him during the season they're in a better position to do so. If they chose to wait until July, they can make a very compelling argument about their roster and their ability to compete.

In no way would I be looking to move any of those top 4 d for Duchene.

[seventeen]

Sept 13, 2017 16:12:50 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

I think it’s a pretty dumb rumour too, BUT to play devil’s advocate:

* PK’s NMC became void once we traded him before it kicked in. Not sure why, but it did.

* Duchene took the second highest number of faceoffs for the Avs last year, after MacKinnon. A pretty clear indicator that he played most of the season as a center. Whether he should have or not is another debate, but there is no question he has been playing as a center.

* The Predators are in just as big a need for a top 6 center as we are. They have Johansen, who only had 61 points last year, and Bonino, with 37, as their top two centers right now.

* The Predators, as we all know, have outstanding depth on the blueline. If you’re going to deal from a position of strength to address a weakness…

* Speaking of weaknesses, the Avs currently only have three defensemen under contract, and one of those is Mark Barberio.

Value-wise, on a player-for-player basis, the Avs make out like bandits. But as we all know getting that top 2 center isn’t all that easy. Who else is on the market? Tavares? Not yet. The Islanders are desperate to keep him (as they should be). Giroux? Perhaps, but that contract… Who else? Again, I don’t think it’s a reasonable trade, but IF the Preds were to do it, with that loaded blueline (even with Ellis out and Subban gone), wouldn’t they be considered favorites to once again come out of the West?

Nashville isn’t negotiating, per se, with Sakic. They’re negotiating AGAINST Montreal, Columbus, Carolina, the Rangers, and so on. None of those teams can beat a Subban offer.

I wasn't sure if it was just Subban, but I understood that the Avs wanted one of Nashville's 4 top dmen. Weird that a NMC would not take effect if traded. While Im not discounting it, it seems really weird. Contracts usually carry over as is. Having said that, even NMC don't keep players on a team, as we've seen I suspect PK is pleased to be rid of Bergevin.

[The Habitual Fan]

Silly, IMO. I've also read more than a few scouting assessment of Duchene and guess what? Most guys think he's a winger, not a centre.

How ironic would it be that the Habs trade for Duchene and by the end of the season he is playing wing and Galchenyuk is his center.

[Disgruntled70sHab]

Silly if we find out that the players were playing Elliot Friedman ... not so silly if Nashville sheds a $9-million annual cap hit and improves their team in the process ... they'd miss PK Subban, for sure ... he played against the oppositions' top players for most of the playoffs and Nashville went to the final ... it took more than a good shutdown d-man, granted, but that was his role and he was pretty good at it ... if you let him loose he'll get you some points, too ... Matt Duchene would follow Ryan Johansen down the middle ... he'd be a lot cheaper than Subban and he'd fill an important need for Nashville ... all that said, I think the Predators will be better than they were last year whether they have Duchene or not ... for all we know some players have the same rumour mills we do ... #bogus

Cheers.

[seventeen]

I still have trouble understanding how a NMC written into a contract, suddenly disappears. It seems that when players accept a trade while having a NMC or NTC in their contracts, they still apply toward the team trading for them. Which is it?

[seventeen]

Sept 13, 2017 20:12:11 GMT -5 Disgruntled70sHab said:

. for all we know some players have the same rumour mills we do ... #bogus

Cheers.

After all, every player in the NHL is totally honest and with nothing but scruples.

[blny]

Sept 13, 2017 23:46:43 GMT -5 seventeen said:

I still have trouble understanding how a NMC written into a contract, suddenly disappears. It seems that when players accept a trade while having a NMC or NTC in their contracts, they still apply toward the team trading for them. Which is it?

I think it's one of two things:

1. You waive it once, it's waived forever.

2. When you waive it for a trade you negotiate with the new team whether or not it's retained as part of the contract.

[BadCompany]

Sept 13, 2017 23:46:43 GMT -5 seventeen said:

I still have trouble understanding how a NMC written into a contract, suddenly disappears. It seems that when players accept a trade while having a NMC or NTC in their contracts, they still apply toward the team trading for them. Which is it?

It's apparently in the CBA:

“if a player is traded or claimed on waivers prior to the no-trade or no-move clause taking effect, the clause does not bind the acquiring club. An acquiring club may agree to continue to be bound by the no-trade or no-move clause, which agreement shall be evidenced in writing to the player, central registry and the NHLPA.”

Which, apparently, the Predators declined to do:

CONFIRMED: #Preds will not honour PK Subban's NMC. It was their choice since clause not in effect at time of trade.

Predators Won’t Honour P.K. Subban’s No-Movement Clause

[Boston_Habs]

I'd trade Shea Weber for Matt Duchene and bring Markov back.

[frozone]

Sept 13, 2017 16:12:50 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

I think it’s a pretty dumb rumour too, BUT to play devil’s advocate:

* PK’s NMC became void once we traded him before it kicked in. Not sure why, but it did.

* Duchene took the second highest number of faceoffs for the Avs last year, after MacKinnon. A pretty clear indicator that he played most of the season as a center. Whether he should have or not is another debate, but there is no question he has been playing as a center.

* The Predators are in just as big a need for a top 6 center as we are. They have Johansen, who only had 61 points last year, and Bonino, with 37, as their top two centers right now.

* The Predators, as we all know, have outstanding depth on the blueline. If you’re going to deal from a position of strength to address a weakness…

* Speaking of weaknesses, the Avs currently only have three defensemen under contract, and one of those is Mark Barberio.

Value-wise, on a player-for-player basis, the Avs make out like bandits. But as we all know getting that top 2 center isn’t all that easy. Who else is on the market? Tavares? Not yet. The Islanders are desperate to keep him (as they should be). Giroux? Perhaps, but that contract… Who else? Again, I don’t think it’s a reasonable trade, but IF the Preds were to do it, with that loaded blueline (even with Ellis out and Subban gone), wouldn’t they be considered favorites to once again come out of the West?

Nashville isn’t negotiating, per se, with Sakic. They’re negotiating AGAINST Montreal, Columbus, Carolina, the Rangers, and so on. None of those teams can beat a Subban offer.

I don't know... value-wise I'd have to say it would be a pretty even trade as long as Duchene's contract remains in the 6M dollar range. Is Duchene 2/3 the player that Subban is? Yea, I'd say that's about right. Bang for the buck makes this trade a real possibility. It's the reason why a player like Taylor Hall can be traded for a player like Adam Larsson straight up.

I think Colorado would have to add considering Duchene is coming off a terrible season. The trade, as is, definitely looks one sided today. But when both players are playing well, I could see this trade happening in today's NHL.

[seventeen]

Sept 14, 2017 8:47:39 GMT -5 frozone said:

Sept 13, 2017 16:12:50 GMT -5 BadCompany said:

I think it’s a pretty dumb rumour too, BUT to play devil’s advocate:

* PK’s NMC became void once we traded him before it kicked in. Not sure why, but it did.

* Duchene took the second highest number of faceoffs for the Avs last year, after MacKinnon. A pretty clear indicator that he played most of the season as a center. Whether he should have or not is another debate, but there is no question he has been playing as a center.

* The Predators are in just as big a need for a top 6 center as we are. They have Johansen, who only had 61 points last year, and Bonino, with 37, as their top two centers right now.

* The Predators, as we all know, have outstanding depth on the blueline. If you’re going to deal from a position of strength to address a weakness…

* Speaking of weaknesses, the Avs currently only have three defensemen under contract, and one of those is Mark Barberio.

Value-wise, on a player-for-player basis, the Avs make out like bandits. But as we all know getting that top 2 center isn’t all that easy. Who else is on the market? Tavares? Not yet. The Islanders are desperate to keep him (as they should be). Giroux? Perhaps, but that contract… Who else? Again, I don’t think it’s a reasonable trade, but IF the Preds were to do it, with that loaded blueline (even with Ellis out and Subban gone), wouldn’t they be considered favorites to once again come out of the West?

Nashville isn’t negotiating, per se, with Sakic. They’re negotiating AGAINST Montreal, Columbus, Carolina, the Rangers, and so on. None of those teams can beat a Subban offer.

I don't know... value-wise I'd have to say it would be a pretty even trade as long as Duchene's contract remains in the 6M dollar range. Is Duchene 2/3 the player that Subban is? Yea, I'd say that's about right. Bang for the buck makes this trade a real possibility. It's the reason why a player like Taylor Hall can be traded for a player like Adam Larsson straight up.

I think Colorado would have to add considering Duchene is coming off a terrible season. The trade, as is, definitely looks one sided today. But when both players are playing well, I could see this trade happening in today's NHL.

Colorado's first pick the next two years? Tyson Jost?