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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:01:24 GMT -5
Post by seventeen on Nov 5, 2017 20:01:24 GMT -5
Let's update the return:
To Ottawa: C Matt Duchene
To Nashville: C Kyle Turris
To Colorado: OTT 1st-round pick, OTT 3rd-round pick, C Shane Bowers, G Andrew Hammond (from Ottawa); NSH 2nd-round pick, D Samuel Girard, LW Vladislav Kamenev (from Nashville).
Bowers was Ottawa's 1st rounder in 2017. He's a centre and has 6 points in 10 games with Boston University so far. Ok, but not a great start to his year. The Hamburgler is a useless pickup. Nashville doesn't give up their first rounder, but instead gives up a 2nd, along with Sam Girard, who's not a bad pickup for the Avs. Kamenev is a left winger, was Nashville's 2nd round choice in 2014. He's 21 and had 8 points in 9 games with the Milwaukee Admirals. More potential I guess. Girard is a Victor Mete type of defenseman. Smallish, but great skater and always put up points in juniour. When playing, he has 1 goal and 2 assists with Nashville in 5 games. Not bad.
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:08:31 GMT -5
Post by CentreHice on Nov 5, 2017 20:08:31 GMT -5
As far as impact for winning now, I have a feeling Nashville will see the most benefit.
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:09:50 GMT -5
Post by blny on Nov 5, 2017 20:09:50 GMT -5
Hammond was buried in the minors. Bowers is a late first from 2017 playing for BU (and having a nice rookie season). Girard is a pmd out of Nashville (3 points in 5 games this year) picked in the second round. Kamenev is a 2014 2nd round pick that's been brought along slowly in Nashville's system. Then a late first this year, likely a mid second with Nashville and a late third.
I don't know if it's outright quality, but the Avs definitely got a lot of pieces for facilitating the swapping of centers.
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:16:28 GMT -5
Post by folatre on Nov 5, 2017 20:16:28 GMT -5
I concur with what you guys are saying. Poile looks like the guy adding a specific piece as part of plan for a legitimate contender. Ottawa is basically subtracting (Turris) and adding (Duchene) at the exact same position, plus parting with other assets in the process. Colorado is not getting anything great in return. I guess at this point Sakic figures a busy (i.e. plenty of hard to immediately analyze and evaluate assets) looking trade is probably a good smoke screen for his overall incompetence.
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:22:04 GMT -5
Post by blny on Nov 5, 2017 20:22:04 GMT -5
Johansen and Turris give them two solid centers. Neither may be a #1 on a deep team, but they're both vg #2 to 1a types. Kyle's 6x6 extension is a bit less than what the talking heads thought he was looking for. I haven't seen enough of their games to know, but I assume Bonino drops to 3c? Expensive if the case.
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 20:33:17 GMT -5
Post by jkr on Nov 5, 2017 20:33:17 GMT -5
That's what burns me .... Other teams manage to make trades for centers ... While we may not have had a Turris, White , 1st to get Duchene ....we certainly had a first to get Turris. Maybe Turris isn't "good" enough, and yes I wouldn't trade a potential #1 overall for just Turris. But we need to upgrade the offense ... Somehow, someway When I read about a complicated 3 way deal like this I go back to Bergevin & his "trades are hard" comment. Maybe he's not prepared to work hard enough to pull off a deal like this. |
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Duchene
Nov 5, 2017 21:24:53 GMT -5
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 5, 2017 21:24:53 GMT -5
Nashville just replaced a void that was created by Mike Fisher retiring ... Kyle Turris is a very good #2 centre and he may do well by taking some of the offensive burden off Ryan Johansen ... thought the timing for adding a new face in the Predator dressing room was spot-on, too ... I think Ottawa improved themselves in getting Matt Duchene ... I think he gives them a good chance at going deep in the playoffs this year ... also, Ottawa gave up a lot which suggests to me that the Senators may feel this to be their year ... will see how that goes ... Colorado stockpiled a few draft picks ... Shane Bowers a north/south kind of centre with all sorts of character ( or so I've read) ... he may not be a #1 centre, but he should be in the NHL some day ... Cheers. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2017 0:40:13 GMT -5
Averaged out over the last 5 seasons, Turris is about 57 point player in an 82 game schedule. That includes an injured 15/16 season where prorated to 43 points. One could say he's a 60 point guy, which is not amongst the best #1 centres, but not bad at all. Johansen has had a 70 point season, but he too seems to be in that 60 range. Neither can be ignored or given too much space, however. I think Poile did quite well. He gave up prospects and a second rounder for a solid centre. Girard has the best upside of the prospects, but to get a #1B centre and then lock him up for 6 years at $6MM (the tax situation in Carolina had to help), is a win for the franchise. If they had him in last year's playoffs, they would have beaten the Pens. Their scoring just dried up after RyJo was injured. The Preds are definitely in win now mode. And most of the key guys will be there for at least the next couple of years. They didn't have to give up any other (assuming Girard is a Grade A prospect) top prospects. They still have Tolvanen (25 points in 27 games with Jokerit of KHL, and Dane Fabbro from 2016.
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Post by blny on Nov 6, 2017 7:32:53 GMT -5
FYI: Ottawa's first is lottery protected. If, somehow, the pick ends up being a top ten pick they reserve the right to keep it.
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Post by GNick99 on Nov 6, 2017 7:55:36 GMT -5
Colorado picked up a lot of assets but nothing that screams cornerstone piece. For me this is nice business by Poile. He gets a 2C, signed and sealed, and does not give up any asset that holds any relevance in chasing the Stanley Cup. It is harder to understand how this works for Ottawa. Subtract and add at the same position. Sure, Duchene at his best probably represents more high end quality than Turris and Duchene is tradeable in 2019 for a late first rounder. I guess as long as the wheels do not fall off the Sens this season, then the assets surrendered are not scary expensive. Poile is in love with center ice position. See my quote from David Poile on Seth Jones trade. Puts Nashville in Cup contention. |
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Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 6, 2017 8:22:06 GMT -5
It looks like Ottawa gave up a lot of assets in terms of prospects and depth to get Duchene who IMO is not a big improvement over Turris so more of a lateral move. Ottawa didn't want to extend Turris contract for $6 million a year but it will cost them that and more with Duchene being a free agent after next year. If Duchene decided to test free agency at the end of his contract this could set Ottawa back years and I don't think it makes them any closer to being a contender now.
Nashville was smart to get a contract with Turris agreed on before the deal was done and not give up any roster players so they know exactly what they are getting.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 10:01:26 GMT -5
Post by blny on Nov 6, 2017 10:01:26 GMT -5
Dorion claims that Turris never came off 7 or 8 years. A six year deal was never an option for the Sens.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 13:48:13 GMT -5
Post by Skilly on Nov 6, 2017 13:48:13 GMT -5
Ottawa paid way too much. Glad we stayed away Nashville didn't ... If Bergevin wanted Kyle Turris he could have matched Nashville's offer pretty easily I think. But trading, especially for centers, is hard ... |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 14:17:24 GMT -5
Post by frozone on Nov 6, 2017 14:17:24 GMT -5
Ottawa paid way too much. Glad we stayed away Nashville didn't ... If Bergevin wanted Kyle Turris he could have matched Nashville's offer pretty easily I think. But trading, especially for centers, is hard ... Are you implying that trading for a top line center isn't hard? Because I bet Ottawa would not have agreed to the deal if it involved Turris solving their division rival's center depth issue. |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 14:32:36 GMT -5
Post by franko on Nov 6, 2017 14:32:36 GMT -5
and they are talking "all in this year" in Ottawa with Duchene . . .
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 14:45:21 GMT -5
Post by blny on Nov 6, 2017 14:45:21 GMT -5
Seriously doubt Sens trade him in-division.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 14:49:27 GMT -5
Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Nov 6, 2017 14:49:27 GMT -5
and they are talking "all in this year" in Ottawa with Duchene . . . Well, it'd better be given what they gave up ... Cheers. |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 15:04:09 GMT -5
Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2017 15:04:09 GMT -5
I agree with the sentiment above that Duchene just isn't enough of an upgrade (if at all) on Turris. The only advantage to Duchene relates to Melnyk's wallet. And to assuage Melnyk's cheapness, the Sens had to give up several picks and prospects...just to stay at their same level. Duchene may be flashier than Turris, but his production has not been as good. I prefer content to packaging. The Avs won't know what they got for Duchene for 4 years. It'll take that long to judge guys like Girard (who I like without seeing him play), Bowers, Kamenev, and then the choices the Avs will have to make in the draft, which is another matter entirely. Can't grade Colorado yet.
But Poile gets an A. He gave up a second rounder, a decent prospect in Girard and lesser prospects after that for a genuine 1b centre who just turned 28 and is in his prime. Six years might be a tad too long if Turris loses a step, but if not it will be good value. It will certainly be good value for 3 years at least and that gives Nashville some good shots at a Cup. They can't afford injuries at the back end as their depth has suffered a bit. Mind you, I would not be surprised to see Dante Fabbro sign with the Preds this spring after the college season is over. He'll be approaching 20 years of age and will probably slot into the 3rd pairing quite easily.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 15:05:46 GMT -5
Post by The Habitual Fan on Nov 6, 2017 15:05:46 GMT -5
Ottawa paid way too much. Glad we stayed away Nashville didn't ... If Bergevin wanted Kyle Turris he could have matched Nashville's offer pretty easily I think. But trading, especially for centers, is hard ... I wouldn't classify Turris as a #1 center and he won't be in Nashville. While Sackic is in selling mode though Bergevin should inquire about Tyson Barrie and add a puck moving defenseman. |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 15:41:22 GMT -5
Post by Skilly on Nov 6, 2017 15:41:22 GMT -5
Nashville didn't ... If Bergevin wanted Kyle Turris he could have matched Nashville's offer pretty easily I think. But trading, especially for centers, is hard ... I wouldn't classify Turris as a #1 center and he won't be in Nashville. While Sackic is in selling mode though Bergevin should inquire about Tyson Barrie and add a puck moving defenseman. He wouldn't be in Montreal either ... Galchenyuk Drouin However, my point is, there are trades out there. I'm not lamenting that we should have moved mountains to land Kyle Turris ... Just that a second line center costs a 2nd rounder, a project forward, and a low pairing type dman. Plus, we have 8 million in cap space . Our GM keeps inferring that the cost of centers would scare us ... Remember we are no longer looking for a first line center. |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 16:23:28 GMT -5
Post by folatre on Nov 6, 2017 16:23:28 GMT -5
Dorion seems a little defensive about Turris signing six year deal. Time will say, but I have a feeling Ottawa will not find Duchene receptive to leaving money on the table to stay there.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 18:17:29 GMT -5
Post by seventeen on Nov 6, 2017 18:17:29 GMT -5
When asked about Dorion's comment that the Turris camp never offered a 6 year deal, Turris said that Ottawa never offered a 6 year deal either. In any case, I don't think Turris was going to stay in Ottawa, so it's a moot point.
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 18:48:49 GMT -5
Post by PTH on Nov 6, 2017 18:48:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't classify Turris as a #1 center and he won't be in Nashville. While Sackic is in selling mode though Bergevin should inquire about Tyson Barrie and add a puck moving defenseman. He wouldn't be in Montreal either ... Galchenyuk Drouin However, my point is, there are trades out there. I'm not lamenting that we should have moved mountains to land Kyle Turris ... Just that a second line center costs a 2nd rounder, a project forward, and a low pairing type dman. Plus, we have 8 million in cap space . Our GM keeps inferring that the cost of centers would scare us ... Remember we are no longer looking for a first line center. A 2nd rounder, McCarron and Schlemko would be a fit for what you described IMO. Is that roughly the value that Nashville gave up ? Keeping in mind that they got to negotiate an extension, which is valuable as well. |
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Duchene
Nov 6, 2017 19:10:22 GMT -5
Post by PTH on Nov 6, 2017 19:10:22 GMT -5
Colorado picked up a lot of assets but nothing that screams cornerstone piece. For me this is nice business by Poile. He gets a 2C, signed and sealed, and does not give up any asset that holds any relevance in chasing the Stanley Cup. It is harder to understand how this works for Ottawa. Subtract and add at the same position. Sure, Duchene at his best probably represents more high end quality than Turris and Duchene is tradeable in 2019 for a late first rounder. I guess as long as the wheels do not fall off the Sens this season, then the assets surrendered are not scary expensive. I think part of the return is the message to Karlsson that they want to win and will pay the price to do so. |
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Post by seventeen on Nov 7, 2017 0:20:51 GMT -5
He wouldn't be in Montreal either ... Galchenyuk Drouin However, my point is, there are trades out there. I'm not lamenting that we should have moved mountains to land Kyle Turris ... Just that a second line center costs a 2nd rounder, a project forward, and a low pairing type dman. Plus, we have 8 million in cap space . Our GM keeps inferring that the cost of centers would scare us ... Remember we are no longer looking for a first line center. A 2nd rounder, McCarron and Schlemko would be a fit for what you described IMO. Is that roughly the value that Nashville gave up ? Keeping in mind that they got to negotiate an extension, which is valuable as well. I think Girard is considered a much more valuable prospect than McCarron. Avs wanted prospects who will be ready in 2 or 3 years, not now, so I doubt Schlemko would be of interest to them. |
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Post by GNick99 on Nov 7, 2017 5:23:36 GMT -5
As far as impact for winning now, I have a feeling Nashville will see the most benefit. Everybody got something back but Nashville, strong down the middle like they are now, has to be Cup favorite. |
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Post by GNick99 on Nov 7, 2017 5:25:39 GMT -5
Dorion seems a little defensive about Turris signing six year deal. Time will say, but I have a feeling Ottawa will not find Duchene receptive to leaving money on the table to stay there. Different tax situation in Nashville. How we lost Radulov..they don't have to pay state tax in those cities. Really unfair advantage |
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Duchene
Nov 7, 2017 13:57:33 GMT -5
Post by Skilly on Nov 7, 2017 13:57:33 GMT -5
He wouldn't be in Montreal either ... Galchenyuk Drouin However, my point is, there are trades out there. I'm not lamenting that we should have moved mountains to land Kyle Turris ... Just that a second line center costs a 2nd rounder, a project forward, and a low pairing type dman. Plus, we have 8 million in cap space . Our GM keeps inferring that the cost of centers would scare us ... Remember we are no longer looking for a first line center. A 2nd rounder, McCarron and Schlemko would be a fit for what you described IMO. Is that roughly the value that Nashville gave up ? Keeping in mind that they got to negotiate an extension, which is valuable as well. Depending on how much you value Girard and Kamenev, I don't know enough about either ... the Maximum we would give up would be 2nd rounder, Mete, Scherbak Keeping in mind, our second rounder is projected to be a better pick than Nashville's at the time of the trade. Would you do that for Turris? I got to say, I'd have to think long and hard, to not do it. And I believe that is the maximum. Since I believe Scherbak is better than Kamenev, and our second rounder is better, we probably could have gotten away with keeping Mete, but then we would be looking at trading Bourque or Juulsen It's not an overly steep price to pay to address an obvious need. But is there another deal out there like that for a second line center? |
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Duchene
Nov 7, 2017 14:00:44 GMT -5
Post by Skilly on Nov 7, 2017 14:00:44 GMT -5
Nashville didn't ... If Bergevin wanted Kyle Turris he could have matched Nashville's offer pretty easily I think. But trading, especially for centers, is hard ... Are you implying that trading for a top line center isn't hard? Because I bet Ottawa would not have agreed to the deal if it involved Turris solving their division rival's center depth issue. You mean like trading a young first line center like Drouin to a division rival? The divisional rival argument no longer holds that much water with 8 teams in the division |
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Duchene
Nov 7, 2017 14:53:26 GMT -5
Post by CentreHice on Nov 7, 2017 14:53:26 GMT -5
Are you implying that trading for a top line center isn't hard? Because I bet Ottawa would not have agreed to the deal if it involved Turris solving their division rival's center depth issue. You mean like trading a young first line center like Drouin to a division rival? The divisional rival argument no longer holds that much water with 8 teams in the division You mean a winger...  and was he even on the first line in Tampa? Drouin might just be a young, converted first line centre. |
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and was he even on the first line in Tampa?