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Post by jkr on Aug 7, 2023 6:14:42 GMT -5
I don't have much criticism for Grier. He was publically trying to deal a 33 year old with 4 years left on an 11 million dollar deal - and with very little retention. That's a monumental task.
I've looked at Karlsson's numbers and honestly, I did not see a monster season on the horizon last fall. He's been pretty ordinary with scary plus minus numbers since he got to SJ.
I guess that Dubas is gambling that when Karlsson is teamed up with Crosby and Malkin and Letang they will turn back the clock. It's kind of like what he did in Toronto - trading away high picks to support a core except that in Pitt, the core is much older and has actually won a few times.
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Post by Tankdriver on Aug 7, 2023 7:46:29 GMT -5
Not sure why everyone wants to trade Monahan. He is a solid player and if he has a good year, I wouldn't be surprised to sign him to an extension. The guy could of signed anywhere last summer and he chose to stay here. I can see being dual interest in resigning with the habs.
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Post by Skilly on Aug 7, 2023 8:11:21 GMT -5
Was Petry really that terrible last year? He was +2 and had 31 points in 61 games. He's always been a bit mistake prone, but those numbers aren't bad for a 35 year old. He's an elusive RHD and still skates very well at 6'-3" and 210 lbs. To me, he's very tradeable if we're willing to retain some more of his salary. At the very least, Hughes has balanced out the lineup very nicely. This is what I was wondering. The other point to consider is that I think he and whoever his partner was, were matched against the toughest opposition lines, much as he was in Montreal. It could simply be that at his age he is no longer a top pair shut down type, but will be perfectly good on the 2nd pair. After Savard, we have no natural RHD. Maybe Matheson can play that spot and I sure hope so. Let's say Matheson does that and maintains his level of play equal to that of last season. Guhle - Matheson Harris - Petry Xhekaj - Savard/Kovacevic Depth - Barron, Struble, Wideman. Arriving in 2024 - Hutson, Engstrom Arriving in 2025 - Reinbacher, Mailloux, Trudeau That is one scenario, namely that Petry is not flipped by training camp. If he is, we'll have a hole at that second RHD spot. There's no way Denis Savard should be on the top pair. He really shouldn't be on the 2nd pair either, but needs must, and if Petry is traded and Barron hasn't taken another step, that hole shows up again. But this is an excellent move by Hughes and one that I'm sure he has been on the lookout for, namely being a catalyst for 2 other teams and in the process exacting a price that moves his plan along. That benefit to the Habs helping out is ridding ourselves of two players we did not need and were taking up money and ice time, while adding a player who fills an immediate need at RHD while still being a trade chip. Freeing up 2 spots does not guarantee any youngster a spot, but it at least opens up the possibility two young forwards being on the roster instead of in Laval, where space is also at a premium. An ancillary benefit we should not take lightly is that Pittsburgh 2nd rounder. Draft 2025 is shaping up as a good one and it never hurts to have another 1st or 2nd round pick in those years. That complicated Sean Monahan deal looks a little less complicated to me now (if I'm reading it right, which may not be the case). It is unlikely Florida will finish in the bottom 10 this coming year, which means their 2024 first rounder will go to Philly and their 2025 pick will become Calgary's property. In turn, that removes some of the possibilities and means that if both Calgary and Panthers finish out of the top 10 picks, Habs will get the better of the two picks. If Calgary and Florida finish 22nd or better, we could possibly end up with the 11th overall pick, as long as one of those teams has a bad year, but not too bad a year. If Calgay finishes with one of the top 10 picks, we get Florida's pick, as long as it too isn't in the top 10. Did I say it was less complicated? Silly me. Anyone read this differently? We could get the #1 overall pick in 2026 under the right scenario ....  |
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Post by PTH on Aug 7, 2023 10:57:40 GMT -5
Anyone read this differently? We could get the #1 overall pick in 2026 under the right scenario .... It's possible but highly unlikely. It's also why I wondered if Hughes considered flipping the conditional '25 pick for this years. |
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Post by Andrew on Aug 7, 2023 11:15:59 GMT -5
That does seem like a pretty horrible return for San Jose. Top 10 protected pick and a couple of players that teams couldn’t give away without sweetening the pot. I guess the benefit is freeing up cap space, but to what end. It’s not like they’re competitive any time soon and need the space to add that final piece.
On the other hand, going back a summer, Karlsson would have fit that profile of an un-tradeable, so maybe they were smart to get out from under that contract while they could.
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 7, 2023 11:55:40 GMT -5
The habs are a media friendly team, the fact they dud not have a press conference means montreal might just be a pit stop for Petry on his way to a team tgat is not on his no trade list... like Detroit?
A 4.7M cap hit is not a lot for top 4 right D.
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Post by habsorbed on Aug 7, 2023 11:58:32 GMT -5
That does seem like a pretty horrible return for San Jose. Top 10 protected pick and a couple of players that teams couldn’t give away without sweetening the pot. I guess the benefit is freeing up cap space, but to what end. It’s not like they’re competitive any time soon and need the space to add that final piece. On the other hand, going back a summer, Karlsson would have fit that profile of an un-tradeable, so maybe they were smart to get out from under that contract while they could. I think it's the latter. Even as the Norris champ, he ain't worth $11.5 and it is likely he is only going to get worse if not fall off considerably. so good to dump him now. But for a Norris champ, you'd think Grier could have got more. Ultimately, the market dictates what the commodity is worth and i guess not too many gms thought it was worth the risk, particularly when most are strapped for cap space. If I were Grier i would have retianed more $$$ to get a better return, especially as SJ ain't contending until after Karlsson's contract ends. |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 7, 2023 13:00:04 GMT -5
Not sure why everyone wants to trade Monahan. He is a solid player and if he has a good year, I wouldn't be surprised to sign him to an extension. The guy could of signed anywhere last summer and he chose to stay here. I can see being dual interest in resigning with the habs. I like him too, a lot. He's a natural goal scorer and those don't grow on trees. The main concern is health, of course and ensuring some injuries don't turn into something worse. He's not of an age that meshes well with the rest of the team, but he is an excellent guy to have around to help in the growth and development of the kids. You need some players of that age (like Matheson) to bring the rest along. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 7, 2023 13:04:55 GMT -5
Not sure why everyone wants to trade Monahan. He is a solid player and if he has a good year, I wouldn't be surprised to sign him to an extension. The guy could of signed anywhere last summer and he chose to stay here. I can see being dual interest in resigning with the habs. I like him too, a lot. He's a natural goal scorer and those don't grow on trees. The main concern is health, of course and ensuring some injuries don't turn into something worse. He's not of an age that meshes well with the rest of the team, but he is an excellent guy to have around to help in the growth and development of the kids. You need some players of that age (like Matheson) to bring the rest along. I want to keep Monahan to help Dach and Slaf .. I want them as our 2nd line... Newhook on the top line with CC and Suze. |
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Post by jkr on Aug 7, 2023 13:11:48 GMT -5
That does seem like a pretty horrible return for San Jose. Top 10 protected pick and a couple of players that teams couldn’t give away without sweetening the pot. I guess the benefit is freeing up cap space, but to what end. It’s not like they’re competitive any time soon and need the space to add that final piece. On the other hand, going back a summer, Karlsson would have fit that profile of an un-tradeable, so maybe they were smart to get out from under that contract while they could. I think it's the latter. Even as the Norris champ, he ain't worth $11.5 and it is likely he is only going to get worse if not fall off considerably. so good to dump him now. But for a Norris champ, you'd think Grier could have got more. Ultimately, the market dictates what the commodity is worth and i guess not too many gms thought it was worth the risk, particularly when most are strapped for cap space. If I were Grier i would have retianed more $$$ to get a better return, especially as SJ ain't contending until after Karlsson's contract ends. He may have won the Norris but IMO he is not the best D man in the league. He was just the highest scoring D man. Jeez, he was a -26. Voters fall for the gaudy point totals but guys like Hedman or Josi are much better at the position. |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 7, 2023 14:20:23 GMT -5
Clearly, Dubas got his job because he sold the owners on going for one last hurrah. There should be no lack of offense on the team, but they were one of the older teams in the NHL last year and don't seem to have added anyone young (probably because their pipeline sucks), so most of the team will be a year older, they will have added Karlsson, but subtracted Petry, who was one of their few reasonable defensively adequate Dmen (plus 2 on a team with a fair number of minuses), they lost Jan Rutta, another defensively adequate dman, and their 3rd and 4th lines are bad. If Jarry doesn't have an outstanding year, the Pens may well miss the playoffs again. There's a lot of bluster around the Karlsson acquisition, but not much substance. Dubas has had a lot of experience with 4 'elite' players leading the charge, while lacking consistent goaltending and depth. It hasn't been a great recipe so far.
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Post by folatre on Aug 7, 2023 14:51:53 GMT -5
For me the Penguins are certainly not a lock for the playoffs. Miraculously Malkin and Crosby played in all 82 games last season. The odds of that happening again are not good. And Karlsson himself could get injured again, since it could be argued 2022-23 was an anomaly when held up against the reality of the other seasons in his San Jose tenure. If Karlsson is healthy and Norris quality, then he clearly improves Pittsburgh. Dubas is going all in, which is fine I suppose since that is what ownership and their core guys want. But this is a high risk move.
Regarding Monahan, I appreciate what he brings to the table. But unfortunately the serious injuries have taken a toll and I doubt he would attract much attention on the open market next summer if he is looking for any kind of term.
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 7, 2023 15:32:31 GMT -5
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Post by Cranky on Aug 7, 2023 16:58:32 GMT -5
I love to bug Hughes phone on the conversations with Petry.
With 4 school aged sons, does he stay in Quebec and maybe even be part of management 8n the future? Or just a rest stop on his way to somewhere else?
Like I said earlier, we have 3 high hope candidates and if they work out, we will be set for a decade on the right side...or not.
Petry coming now to "help us" is not really much of a priority, on the other hand another bottom 5 finish and it's going to get old and fustrating for a young team.
All kinds of scenarios, but the best one is to trade him for a high pick or a high quality youngster. Eating 2.3 million and adding one of our "maybe good" youngsters could work for a few teams.
Most definitely a win for this trade and maybe a much bigger win coming.
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Post by jkr on Aug 7, 2023 17:01:35 GMT -5
I read that article. The part that I dont get is where Dubas thinks his top 2 pairs can play 50 minutes a night. That's just not realistic & is not sustainable over an 82 game season.
Both Letang & Karlsson have had their share of injuries & health issues. That's not going to magically disappear.
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Post by folatre on Aug 7, 2023 17:29:53 GMT -5
Yeah, for sure, I would be wary about believing any top-4 in the league can eat 50 minutes night in night out, in particular when that group includes a 36 year old with a million miles and a 33 year old with a history of lower body injuries.
As for Petry, he has to roll with whatever happens. He has his 15 team no trade list, so whether he plays opening night with the Habs or one of the teams not on his list, Petry has to be a good pro. Uncertainty is never ideal for a young family, but that is part of the business. I certainly do not doubt Hughes is looking to trade Petry, though my sense now is that he plays a considerable portion of the season with the Habs.
Among the young players, Hughes flurry of activity yesterday was good news for Harvey-Pinard and Ylonen, while it was not good news for Barron and Kovacevic. But kids have to pick themselves up, compete harder, and refine their game.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 7, 2023 17:44:55 GMT -5
Barron and Kovacevic must be hearing the Jaws theme in their heads. We have 3 prospects that are highly likely to be better (or WAY better) then them and now a elder statesman that will play to be traded.
Competition sucks. It pushes people past their comfort zone so they either rise higher...or get eaten.
Old Spartan proverb i just made up....you don't want to be the last fish swimming on frozen water, because you will be eaten by a mechanical shark.
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Post by Habs_fan_in_LA on Aug 7, 2023 18:13:55 GMT -5
Barron and Kovacevic must be hearing the Jaws theme in their heads. We have 3 prospects that are highly likely to be better (or WAY better) then them and now a elder statesman that will play to be traded. Competition sucks. It pushes people past their comfort zone so they either rise higher...or get eaten. Old Spartan proverb i just made up.... you don't want to be the last fish swimming on frozen water, because you will be eaten by a mechanical shark. We shuffled the deck and rolled the dice. We didn’t get a star. We got good players but Wright and Michkov could be ordinary or perhaps GREAT. I don’t think we will have another shot at great in my lifetime. |
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Post by folatre on Aug 8, 2023 19:32:37 GMT -5
These days training camp is kind and gentle. Maybe Barron and Kovacevic should enroll in a Spartan-like regimen for 30 days before their arrival in Montreal.
Who are your three high-ceiling defense prospects, Cranky? I presume you are referring to Reinbacher, Mailloux, and Hutson. I really think all three are locks to be NHLers, though how impactful remains open to question. Montreal is replete with incredible future depth on the blueline, but this does not necessarily mean a guy struggling today (for example, Barron) to gain a foothold at the NHL level will not manage to do so with the Canadien down the road.
Some kids won't quite work out. Other kids will get moved to upgrade the roster in other positions of need or perhaps for futures.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 8, 2023 20:46:22 GMT -5
Who are your three high-ceiling defense prospects, Cranky? I presume you are referring to Reinbacher, Mailloux, and Hutson. I really think all three are locks to be NHLers, though how impactful remains open to question. Montreal is replete with incredible future depth on the blueline, but this does not necessarily mean a guy struggling today (for example, Barron) to gain a foothold at the NHL level will not manage to do so with the Canadien down the road. It use to be late bloomers like BC on left defense, me on the right and CO getting the drinks and picking up bodies, but now, we're closer to adult diapers then teenage dreams.  Yeah, Rein, Hutson and Mail probably have a higher if not much higher ceiling and likely career then Barron/Kovi. If there is a lot more in those two, it better show up fast because the other three are not going to be nice about it. I expect Rein/Mail/Hutson to show up in our lineup next season (2024). |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 8, 2023 21:00:32 GMT -5
Who are your three high-ceiling defense prospects, Cranky? I presume you are referring to Reinbacher, Mailloux, and Hutson. I really think all three are locks to be NHLers, though how impactful remains open to question. Montreal is replete with incredible future depth on the blueline, but this does not necessarily mean a guy struggling today (for example, Barron) to gain a foothold at the NHL level will not manage to do so with the Canadien down the road. It use to be late bloomers like BC on left defense, me on the right and CO getting the drinks and picking up bodies, but now, we're closer to adult diapers then teenage dreams. Yeah, Rein, Hutson and Mail probably have a higher if not much higher ceiling and likely career then Barron/Kovi. If there is a lot more in those two, it better show up fast because the other three are not going to be nice about it. I expect Rein/Mail/Hutson to show up in our lineup next season (2024). We might get to see the Mailman this year, definately Hutson next year and if things go well, Rein next year as well but he'll only be 20, so let's temper expectations, he's got growing to do |
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Post by seventeen on Aug 9, 2023 1:49:21 GMT -5
Ok, I'mm going against the grain (as I have consistently with regard to this prospect) and say that Mailloux is not going to be a Habs Dman. It has nothing to do with off ice anything, and everything to do with my belief he just isn't going to be able to process the NHL game quickly enough. Hutson might be ready for late season antics if his team is eliminated. That might also be the same case for Reinbacher but I'm not sure there either. The guy who is closest to being an NHL ready dman is Adam Engstrom and he's playing in Sweden this coming season, though their seasons may be shorter than ours and if he's able to be available then, I think he joins the team. Struble, too, might make it as a defensive guy to thwart attackers, but because Bergie was really fond of him, he's a mystery (Berg loved Dalton Thrower too).
Mailloux would be a great addition to a trade, though, to elevate the return we get (I can easily see Cranky throwing foodstuffs at me after that comment).
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Post by frozone on Aug 9, 2023 8:11:19 GMT -5
Ok, I'mm going against the grain (as I have consistently with regard to this prospect) and say that Mailloux is not going to be a Habs Dman. It has nothing to do with off ice anything, and everything to do with my belief he just isn't going to be able to process the NHL game quickly enough. Hutson might be ready for late season antics if his team is eliminated. That might also be the same case for Reinbacher but I'm not sure there either. The guy who is closest to being an NHL ready dman is Adam Engstrom and he's playing in Sweden this coming season, though their seasons may be shorter than ours and if he's able to be available then, I think he joins the team. Struble, too, might make it as a defensive guy to thwart attackers, but because Bergie was really fond of him, he's a mystery (Berg loved Dalton Thrower too). Mailloux would be a great addition to a trade, though, to elevate the return we get (I can easily see Cranky throwing foodstuffs at me after that comment). I'm with you on Mailloux. His highlights are impressive, but his lowlights are worrisome. Youtube only really shows us the former. Take Baron as an example... even before he was drafted he had the reputation as a very safe, smart, well-balanced Dman who could take good care of his own end. Well if Baron has trouble keeping up in the NHL, then Mailloux has a LOT of work to do before he makes it to the show. Even at the junior level Mailloux has been a bit of a wild ride defensively. Don't get me wrong, I like Mailloux a lot. But at this stage, I consider him still a project. |
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Aug 9, 2023 13:00:27 GMT -5
Well, we have officially entered the very annoying 2.0 version of “where will Petry end up” and loads of trade proposals/rumours flying around the twitterverse or X-verse now that Musk has mauled that platform. The “which goalie will be moved?” musings are also starting to gain traction, but seem to still be second fiddle to the Petry speculation.
If past history tells us anything, Hughes likely has a set price for both guys and will patiently wait teams out until he gets his price. He has been patient moving guys in the past based on this premise. Ideally, he moves before the trade deadline as the team has too many defense and goalies now.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 9, 2023 13:02:47 GMT -5
All thee of little faith, may your bowels be constipated!!
Young defenseman suffer from too'much'ites. Particularly if they have or want to create a level/reputation/dependancy as offensive defenseman. They are looking and make it their priority to make a play instead of snuffing out a play and letting their teamates carry on. Mandatory in the NHL.
Weber was a prime example of snuffing out plays. X isn't Weber but he quickly learned that doing less is more. Guhle was born with the snuff-out gene.
This is important particularly if you don't have elite skating to get yourself out of mistakes. Weber was no ice dancing queen.
The Mailman has lost two years of develoment AND he thinks he has Bobby Orr genes. Mostly because he could get away with it at lower levels. He's going to need some heavy duty coaching in the AHL to focus on defence and go/no-go situations. He has the tools and the size...and hopefully the will.
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Post by Cranky on Aug 9, 2023 13:32:39 GMT -5
Well, we have officially entered the very annoying 2.0 version of “where will Petry end up” and loads of trade proposals/rumours flying around the twitterverse or X-verse now that Musk has mauled that platform. The “which goalie will be moved?” musings are also starting to gain traction, but seem to still be second fiddle to the Petry speculation. If past history tells us anything, Hughes likely has a set price for both guys and will patiently wait teams out until he gets his price. He has been patient moving guys in the past based on this premise. Ideally, he moves before the trade deadline as the team has too many defense and goalies now. If remember correctly, i think there rumours for Allen. Waiting is the best option. There will be RHDs that will go down and they are not as easily replaced as LHDs. That will bring the highest value. On the other hand, he's got the 16 team list that cuts the opportunities in half. Given that there was no fanfare and public welcome back, my first impression of him staying here long term looks unlikely. This silence screams of a deal in the works. May not happen, but it's getting cooked. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Aug 9, 2023 15:12:01 GMT -5
Some of the rumors I've heard for Petry are buffalo, Detroit, Dallas and Edmonton... I would assume Edmonton might be on Petry's no trade list
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Post by folatre on Aug 9, 2023 19:32:24 GMT -5
I know the Detroit and Michigan roots angle, but looking at the Wings roster for better or worse they are kind of locked in on the blueline. Plus, they are not a contender for anything so the next guys up will be kids rather than outside help.
Willie, honestly I think Dallas is the team to watch. The Stars have a need because their d-corps is thin, Suter will be 39 this season and he looked over-matched a lot last spring, and they already graduated the only kid (Harley) ready to play, the others are way too green for a Cup contender to roll the dice on.
Dallas has a stud in net, a good coach, an elite 1D, a good top six and a lot of quality depth up front. So they obviously want to do what it takes to win. The Stars need to add on defense.
Regarding Edmonton, I know Petry may not have enjoyed his time there but times change and the Oilers are a playoff lock and a Cup contender so he would be sort of crazy to refuse to go if Hughes approached him about it.
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Post by Tankdriver on Aug 9, 2023 21:00:13 GMT -5
Agree. The lack of a press conference says this looks to be a short stay for Petry. Too bad, as I think he could contribute to this team.
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Post by folatre on Aug 10, 2023 17:21:41 GMT -5
It is hard to know. I think management just wants to play it cool and let Petry enjoy his summer in Michigan or wherever. Even in the midst of lazy August, no doubt Hughes is talking to teams who express a serious interest. That said, if no one meets the asking price, then I am sure Petry will hold forth with media when the boys hit the links at Laval-sur-le-Lac.
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