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Post by seventeen on Feb 1, 2016 15:34:19 GMT -5
If there is a consensus that this organization, including the gm and coach, cannot draft and/or develop young players, then it seems to me our draft choices are useless. We should be offering them up, those selected the past few years and those in the future, for a top 6 forward, perhaps 2, who we know can play and score. Carey, PK, and Max, cannot wait for this year's or next year's draft picks to develop. Aside form being in their prime now, we will not have the cap space when Carey and Max need to be extended. Now is the time to make a bold move. Too bad we have the navel gazer who says it's too had to make a deal Hey! You've made the full leap to my side of the fence ... it was getting lonely over here!! See my signature for my thoughts on saving draft picks. Three years now since what I deemed was a wasted opportunity to go for it, and not one has contributed anything meaningful to the big club. Skilly, can you provide any examples of Stanley Cup winners, or heck even finalists, without key contributions from guys that they've drafted? I haven't done a thorough search, so I can't be unequivocal, but I think you'll have a difficult time finding any examples like that. You simply can't win without doing a good job of drafting and then doing a good job of developing those guys. I think we've fallen down hugely in that latter area. Through all of Bergevin's tenure the two key development guys have been Lefebvre and Therrien. The players who have developed best are guys who have a lot of confidence and drive within themselves, namely Pacioretty, PK and Gallagher. They would have been successful with fire hydrants as coaches. It's all those other pieces who need some teaching and guidance, who haven't gotten any or enough. You know what I think of Therrien's system and from what we've heard lately about the Habs practices, they're hardly useful. Not to mention refusing to play guys where we need them the most. Having said that, it's also important to acquire pieces through trades or free agency. I'd say 3/4 of a team's success, though comes from players they have drafted themselves. You can't just trade away choices (who are cheap to pay) and hope your expensive traded players and UFA's can make it up. The CAP handcuffs those teams who can't develop their own talent.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 1, 2016 15:44:11 GMT -5
I keep going back to one thing, I started to follow the team from a young age and the aura of "must prevail, must win" permeated my genetic code. Now it seems that the team and management abandoned that into recycled mediocrity. They changed, I haven't. I don't care for the current version and most certainly........I will never let my expectations of them go....... This organization went into the gutter when it became a language issue for anything administrative. I was but a little baby during the late 70s and only became a fan because of Steve Penny (I thought his name was funny). Can anyone confirm if the french media was this powerful in regards to the administration speaking french back in dynasty times? Did Bowman or Pollack speak French, did they care? Did the media care? I'm not sure about Pollock, but Bowman certainly spoke French. We're not going to be able to get around the fact that in 95% of the cases, our coach will have to speak French or at least learn to speak French. It's important to include those many fans who don't have a good grasp of English. We do have 2 official languages in Canada and I'm proud of it. I doubt the GM needs to speak French, though it too would help. It can't be that hard to learn, no? All it requires is the need and the will. If Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville were hired by Bergevin, I doubt few in Quebec would complain. And I bet they'd all learn French in short order. So we need to get past that hurdle. It's a fact of life. Having said that, it's not like being a French Canadian coach automatically means you have second tier ability. Hartley, Vigneault and Julien have proved that, as did many others in the past. Start with Scotty Bowman who was born in Verdun, was fluently bilingual and needs no props from me. Our problem is not that we have a French speaking coach, it's that we have a coach who isn't a winner and has not shown any ability to deal with skilled players. He's a grinding coach, without grinding players. He doesn't have the skill level the Habs need to succeed. I've never complained about the fact Therrien is French Canadian because it's irrelevant. He could be Martian and I'd treat him the same way, not because he's Martian but because he's not a good enough coach. So let's find a good one.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 1, 2016 16:10:56 GMT -5
Would an English-speaking coach consider taking the job knowing that learning French would be mandatory, though?
I learned French from Grades 5 to 13...but it would still take me quite a while to not only understand the reporters' questions, but also to formulate responses. I can't imagine starting from scratch.
Maybe it's time to think about an interpreter for PCs/scrums until the coach becomes comfortable conversing in French....
Marc Denis is very good in that role when interviewing English-speaking players on RDS....
Or is the preferred connection a total one: i.e. Is it best that the coach has roots in French culture, as well?
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Post by Skilly on Feb 1, 2016 16:13:34 GMT -5
Hey! You've made the full leap to my side of the fence ... it was getting lonely over here!! See my signature for my thoughts on saving draft picks. Three years now since what I deemed was a wasted opportunity to go for it, and not one has contributed anything meaningful to the big club. Skilly, can you provide any examples of Stanley Cup winners, or heck even finalists, without key contributions from guys that they've drafted? I haven't done a thorough search, so I can't be unequivocal, but I think you'll have a difficult time finding any examples like that. You simply can't win without doing a good job of drafting and then doing a good job of developing those guys. I think we've fallen down hugely in that latter area. Through all of Bergevin's tenure the two key development guys have been Lefebvre and Therrien. The players who have developed best are guys who have a lot of confidence and drive within themselves, namely Pacioretty, PK and Gallagher. They would have been successful with fire hydrants as coaches. It's all those other pieces who need some teaching and guidance, who haven't gotten any or enough. You know what I think of Therrien's system and from what we've heard lately about the Habs practices, they're hardly useful. Not to mention refusing to play guys where we need them the most. Having said that, it's also important to acquire pieces through trades or free agency. I'd say 3/4 of a team's success, though comes from players they have drafted themselves. You can't just trade away choices (who are cheap to pay) and hope your expensive traded players and UFA's can make it up. The CAP handcuffs those teams who can't develop their own talent. You are missing the point. You can't hoard picks EVERY year. Eventually there comes a time when you have to go for it .... And I bet you can't find a team where EVERY key contribution came from draft picks. Right now we have, through the draft, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Markov, Subban, Beaulieu, Emelin and Price. A 30 goal scorer, a Norris winner, and a Hart /Vezina winner. And yet we still find ourselves clinging to those draft picks. Eventually you need to get the missing piece you keep failing to get through the draft.
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Post by UberCranky on Feb 1, 2016 16:33:51 GMT -5
This organization went into the gutter when it became a language issue for anything administrative. I was but a little baby during the late 70s and only became a fan because of Steve Penny (I thought his name was funny). Can anyone confirm if the french media was this powerful in regards to the administration speaking french back in dynasty times? Did Bowman or Pollack speak French, did they care? Did the media care? I'm not sure about Pollock, but Bowman certainly spoke French. We're not going to be able to get around the fact that in 95% of the cases, our coach will have to speak French or at least learn to speak French. It's important to include those many fans who don't have a good grasp of English. We do have 2 official languages in Canada and I'm proud of it. I doubt the GM needs to speak French, though it too would help. It can't be that hard to learn, no? All it requires is the need and the will. If Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville were hired by Bergevin, I doubt few in Quebec would complain. And I bet they'd all learn French in short order. So we need to get past that hurdle. It's a fact of life. Having said that, it's not like being a French Canadian coach automatically means you have second tier ability. Hartley, Vigneault and Julien have proved that, as did many others in the past. Start with Scotty Bowman who was born in Verdun, was fluently bilingual and needs no props from me. Our problem is not that we have a French speaking coach, it's that we have a coach who isn't a winner and has not shown any ability to deal with skilled players. He's a grinding coach, without grinding players. He doesn't have the skill level the Habs need to succeed. I've never complained about the fact Therrien is French Canadian because it's irrelevant. He could be Martian and I'd treat him the same way, not because he's Martian but because he's not a good enough coach. So let's find a good one. Would an English-speaking coach consider taking the job knowing that learning French would be mandatory, though? I learned French from Grades 5 to 13...but it would still take me quite a while to not only understand the reporters' questions, but also to formulate responses. I can't imagine starting from scratch. Maybe it's time to think about an interpreter for PCs/scrums until the coach becomes comfortable conversing in French.... Marc Denis is very good in that role when interviewing English-speaking players on RDS.... Or is the preferred connection a total one: i.e. Is it best that the coach has roots in French culture, as well? it's been a while since I gave a damn about Quebec language law.....but I seem to remember something that by law, the working environment "must" be in French. If so, then any coach hired must speak French even if he never actually speaks French at work. Like I said, it's been a while... Regardless, there will be lot's of backlash from the politically motivated to make a big deal out of it. If some effstick can sue Air Canada for not being able to order his 7up in French, I'm sure there are many, many more like him just frothing to make a really big deal out of it. Plus this.... www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/habs-owner-geoff-molson-says-speaking-french-very-important-1.998863
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Post by jkr on Feb 1, 2016 20:00:38 GMT -5
Was listening to Farber this aft. He feels that Bergevin has boxed himself by backing his coaches publicly. But he doesn't agree with tank idea. He feels that MB should have gone after one of the free agent goalies (Reimer, Ward) in order to get into the playoffs. Seems that he is puzzled, like most of us, that nothing has been done to stop the slide.
BTW - he casually mentioned that Price is at least 3 weeks away. That estimate is a new one on me.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 1, 2016 20:22:17 GMT -5
Was listening to Farber this aft. He feels that Bergevin has boxed himself by backing his coaches publicly. But he doesn't agree with tank idea. He feels that MB should have gone after one of the free agent goalies (Reimer, Ward) in order to get into the playoffs. Seems that he is puzzled, like most of us, that nothing has been done to stop the slide. BTW - he casually mentioned that Price is at least 3 weeks away. That estimate is a new one on me. On Thursday, Jan. 21, Bergevin said, "3 weeks, maybe a month....we don't have an exact date..." This coming Thursday, that'll be 2 weeks. Farber's info adds on another week....bringing it to Feb. 22....3 days shy of 5 weeks. And that's AT LEAST. Might as well figure another week minimum after that....which brings us to trade deadline day, Feb. 29th. Who's working on Price? A contractor??
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Post by seventeen on Feb 1, 2016 21:33:13 GMT -5
Who's working on Price? A contractor?? Therrien's plumber.
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Post by franko on Feb 1, 2016 22:16:35 GMT -5
Was listening to Farber this aft. He feels that Bergevin has boxed himself by backing his coaches publicly. But he doesn't agree with tank idea. He feels that MB should have gone after one of the free agent goalies (Reimer, Ward) in order to get into the playoffs. Seems that he is puzzled, like most of us, that nothing has been done to stop the slide. BTW - he casually mentioned that Price is at least 3 weeks away. That estimate is a new one on me. On Thursday, Jan. 21, Bergevin said, "3 weeks, maybe a month....we don't have an exact date..." This coming Thursday, that'll be 2 weeks. Farber's info adds on another week....bringing it to Feb. 22....3 days shy of 5 weeks. maybe it was "rounding" . . . you can't count last week . . . All Star Week . . . and you can't count this week because today is still the All Star break . . . so Feb 22 is only three weeks.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 1, 2016 23:05:03 GMT -5
The weekends are in there as well.
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Post by del on Feb 2, 2016 0:01:58 GMT -5
I was but a little baby during the late 70s Let me tell you, it wasn't much fun being a big baby during the 70's either.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 2, 2016 1:13:41 GMT -5
While I understand the desire to maintain the French language, it is unreasonable in this day of international social media to require a coach to speak the local language. It was an issue for the captain not too many years ago, but now given we only have one francophone on the team (DD) doesn't seem to be an issue. Why was Saku pilloried for not speaking French yet Max gets a free pass? Is it because people recognize that a captain requires many more important qualities than speaking a certain language. And that the pool becomes very restricted if the captain must speak French, much to the detriment of the team. Seems the same principles apply to the coach.
The fact is that the official language of the NHL is English. Most teams have at least 6 different languages spoken by their various players. So how does everyone communicate and get on the same page? English is the one universal language. The Habs are no different. So who's kidding who here? Markov had a terrible time learning the English language. I suspect his French is still non-existent. If we only have one player on the team who speaks French, and he is marginal at best, why do we require one of the key cogs in the organization to speak French?
Bottom line: there is no rational to requiring a French speaking coach. The reason we are in this position is we have a GM who is a coward. A coward to make a bold move on the player front, and a coward to stand up and tell the vocal minority that any requirement for a French speaking coach is nonsense and seriously undermines the ability to get the best person for the job on the international market.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 2, 2016 8:20:36 GMT -5
I started the season on a high and actually bought the entire "hope and changed" barrel of bs. Now, I'm actually annoyed bordering on angry when I think of the team. I keep going back to one thing, I started to follow the team from a young age and the aura of "must prevail, must win" permeated my genetic code. Now it seems that the team and management abandoned that into recycled mediocrity. They changed, I haven't. I don't care for the current version and most certainly........I will never let my expectations of them go....... This organization went into the gutter when it became a language issue for anything administrative. I was but a little baby during the late 70s and only became a fan because of Steve Penny (I thought his name was funny). I'm not sure that's entirely true ... the crash eventually came when Ronald Corey promoted a beer salesman to general manager ... Rejean Houle was basically handed a championship team and just within a few years the team hit rock bottom (in retrospect it's hard for me to blame Houle because he was in way over his head) ... it wasn't until Bob Gainey took over that the team started it's way back to respectability ... Scotty Bowman spoke very good French ... however, this link, here, kind of addresses what you're asking ... I haven't heard accusations like this since this incident, but back in the day it was a real issue ... whether the accusations are true or not is moot ... Al McNeil lost his arguments with Henri Richard and lost his job ... but to be fair to all of them, this occurred in a different era when the team was not only hugely successful, but it also identified with the fan base ... there was always a mix of Francophone/Anglophone players that made the team what it was, but there was always a distinct French identity to the Habs ... more specifically, there was always a French Canadian hero the fans could identify with ... I know Marc Bergevin said he wants a roster that identifies with the fan base, but it's easier said than done ... Cheers.
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Post by CentreHice on Feb 2, 2016 10:44:23 GMT -5
I know it's been mentioned before but I can't find it. I think it's time Geoff Molson removes himself as President of the team and puts a real hockey man in that role. He's too close to Bergevin….gave him the lengthy extension…. Perhaps a true hockey president waits to see how a season plays out….instead of rewarding someone after the first 1.5 months. And how ironic that the extension was announced on Nov. 25th…the same night Price took himself out of the Rangers game….and has yet to return.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 2, 2016 11:49:36 GMT -5
This organization went into the gutter when it became a language issue for anything administrative. I was but a little baby during the late 70s and only became a fan because of Steve Penny (I thought his name was funny). I'm not sure that's entirely true ... the crash eventually came when Ronald Corey promoted a beer salesman to general manager ... Rejean Houle was basically handed a championship team and just within a few years the team hit rock bottom (in retrospect it's hard for me to blame Houle because he was in way over his head) ... it wasn't until Bob Gainey took over that the team started it's way back to respectability ... Scotty Bowman spoke very good French ... however, this link, here, kind of addresses what you're asking ... I haven't heard accusations like this since this incident, but back in the day it was a real issue ... whether the accusations are true or not is moot ... Al McNeil lost his arguments with Henri Richard and lost his job ... but to be fair to all of them, this occurred in a different era when the team was not only hugely successful, but it also identified with the fan base ... there was always a mix of Francophone/Anglophone players that made the team what it was, but there was always a distinct French identity to the Habs ... more specifically, there was always a French Canadian hero the fans could identify with ... I know Marc Bergevin said he wants a roster that identifies with the fan base, but it's easier said than done ... Cheers. I guess my frustrations are focused on language because of the whole bringing back MT thing. I feel like it never made sense from the beginning, and I could just cling to the language issue to focus my anger. There is so much blame to go around here, and it can go back decades. And all it proves is that winning is really hard. Finding talent is hard. Developing it even harder. I think you hit the nail on the head with where the fault lines started. The Corey hire, the trading of Roy, and on from there... it all put the team down a path where mediocrity was the new norm. And as a fanbase that is used to winning, it felt like ok, this is what it's like to be normal. But it just feels like collectively the "fans" have a better sense of what to do, or at least the opinions I read or hear. Tank for a few years and get your depth down the middle, preferably in a year with generational talent available (Matthews...) and hope to God you have hired the best talent evaluaters you can. Bergy has made it clear he can't find these players as UFA's and that trading for them is something he will not do. So maybe this is all part of his master plan. Your only options are to develop through the draft, and the odds are much higher that you land that player with a top 5 pick. Oh wait we got that guy and refused to develop him... Literally half of the first line centers in the league were top 5 picks. Picking between 5 and 10 seems to be the Bermuda triangle of 1st line centers, although Monohan has his moments. I was tempted to make DD our 1st line center, as he would be the only one on the list who was not even drafted... but heck he should be playing above the guy you picked at 3... because you know, he is like one of us. Round 1 <5 Eichel 2015 (He is the defacto number 1 there shortly) Staal 2003 Towes 2006 Duchesne 2009 Seguin 2010 RNH / McDavid 2011 / 2015 Barkov 2013 Johansen 2010 Tavares 2009 Turris 2007 Crosby 2005 Thornton 1997 Stamkos 2008 Sedin 1999 Backstrom 2006 >5 and <10 Monohan 2013 Granlund 2010 BRassard 2006 Kadri 2007 >10 and <20 Getzlaf 2003 Kopitar 2005 Little 2006 >20 and <30 Giroux 2006 Round 2 Vermette 2000 Bergeron 2003 / Kreji 2004 Dubinsky 2004 Backes 2003 Round 3 Plekanec 2001 Henrique 2008 Round 6 Datsyuk 1998 And this post has gone completely off the rails.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 2, 2016 12:19:53 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team.
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Feb 2, 2016 12:42:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure that's entirely true ... the crash eventually came when Ronald Corey promoted a beer salesman to general manager ... Rejean Houle was basically handed a championship team and just within a few years the team hit rock bottom (in retrospect it's hard for me to blame Houle because he was in way over his head) ... it wasn't until Bob Gainey took over that the team started it's way back to respectability ... Scotty Bowman spoke very good French ... however, this link, here, kind of addresses what you're asking ... I haven't heard accusations like this since this incident, but back in the day it was a real issue ... whether the accusations are true or not is moot ... Al McNeil lost his arguments with Henri Richard and lost his job ... but to be fair to all of them, this occurred in a different era when the team was not only hugely successful, but it also identified with the fan base ... there was always a mix of Francophone/Anglophone players that made the team what it was, but there was always a distinct French identity to the Habs ... more specifically, there was always a French Canadian hero the fans could identify with ... I know Marc Bergevin said he wants a roster that identifies with the fan base, but it's easier said than done ... Cheers. I guess my frustrations are focused on language because of the whole bringing back MT thing. I feel like it never made sense from the beginning, and I could just cling to the language issue to focus my anger. There is so much blame to go around here, and it can go back decades. And all it proves is that winning is really hard. Finding talent is hard. Developing it even harder. I think you hit the nail on the head with where the fault lines started. The Corey hire, the trading of Roy, and on from there... it all put the team down a path where mediocrity was the new norm. And as a fanbase that is used to winning, it felt like ok, this is what it's like to be normal. But it just feels like collectively the "fans" have a better sense of what to do, or at least the opinions I read or hear. Tank for a few years and get your depth down the middle, preferably in a year with generational talent available (Matthews...) and hope to God you have hired the best talent evaluaters you can. Bergy has made it clear he can't find these players as UFA's and that trading for them is something he will not do. So maybe this is all part of his master plan. Your only options are to develop through the draft, and the odds are much higher that you land that player with a top 5 pick. Oh wait we got that guy and refused to develop him... Literally half of the first line centers in the league were top 5 picks. Picking between 5 and 10 seems to be the Bermuda triangle of 1st line centers, although Monohan has his moments. I was tempted to make DD our 1st line center, as he would be the only one on the list who was not even drafted... but heck he should be playing above the guy you picked at 3... because you know, he is like one of us. Round 1 <5 Eichel 2015 (He is the defacto number 1 there shortly) Staal 2003 Towes 2006 Duchesne 2009 Seguin 2010 RNH / McDavid 2011 / 2015 Barkov 2013 Johansen 2010 Tavares 2009 Turris 2007 Crosby 2005 Thornton 1997 Stamkos 2008 Sedin 1999 Backstrom 2006 >5 and <10 Monohan 2013 Granlund 2010 BRassard 2006 Kadri 2007 >10 and <20 Getzlaf 2003 Kopitar 2005 Little 2006 >20 and <30 Giroux 2006 Round 2 Vermette 2000 Bergeron 2003 / Kreji 2004 Dubinsky 2004 Backes 2003 Round 3 Plekanec 2001 Henrique 2008 Round 6 Datsyuk 1998 And this post has gone completely off the rails. Appreciate the effort, though, MikeG ... Cheers.
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Post by mikeg on Feb 2, 2016 12:51:46 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team. I just hope that that is what Bergy's game is here now. Take the blame, shield the coach and not make any panic moves because your plan is to get your team into a good position for one of those top 3 picks... I hope that's what this is all about. And that all goes to hell if MT is back next year, which honestly seems like it will be the case. Stamkos would be a dream but the reality is that he will never sign here, not in a million jillion years. The media, the language, the pressure, the coach... it won't work. If I could get in a room and give him my pitch it would be: "Hey man, here is a blank cheque. Here is a blank piece of paper. Fill out the cheque with whatever amount you want. Write down on the paper how many years you want, and who you want as a coach. I'll have Geoff Mol$on sign it and get'er done. Do you like Poutine? Because we can have one named after you. Just put it all down on the paper brother".
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Post by BadCompany on Feb 2, 2016 13:21:55 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team. My target would be Ryan Nugent Hopkins. With McDavid and the emergence of Draisaitl the Oilers have an abundance of offensive depth down the middle. Now they can always move Nugent-Hopkins (or Draisaitl) to the wing, but we know they've been shopping him. They were looking for a stud defenseman, and they look weak on right-wing depth. IF we have a high pick this summer something along the lines of Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov for Beaulieu, our 1st and say Scherbak might get it done.
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Post by seventeen on Feb 2, 2016 13:25:51 GMT -5
[ Stamkos would be a dream but the reality is that he will never sign here, not in a million jillion years. The media, the language, the pressure, the coach... it won't work. If I could get in a room and give him my pitch it would be: "Hey man, here is a blank cheque. Here is a blank piece of paper. Fill out the cheque with whatever amount you want. Write down on the paper how many years you want, and who you want as a coach. I'll have Geoff Mol$on sign it and get'er done. Do you like Poutine? Because we can have one named after you. Just put it all down on the paper brother". Unfortunately you can't do that either. Stamkos and a bunch of AHL'rs won't win you the Cup. You sign Stamkos for whatever he wants and you'd have to fill the rest of the roster with mediocre players. I'd think, as you allude, that there are better options for Stamkos. The tax situation in Quebec means we have to pay at least 20% more than a Florida or Texas team to give him the equivalent dollars in his pocket. The rules in those states are set up by rich people for rich people. Tampa has a better chance of winning the Cup right now than Montreal. If he enjoys attention and fame, then Montreal is the place, and he can probably make up the difference in salary with endorsements. His inclusion would make us as good a bet or better to win the Cup than Tampa. It's a tough sell, for sure.
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Post by Skilly on Feb 2, 2016 15:13:53 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team. I just hope that that is what Bergy's game is here now. Take the blame, shield the coach and not make any panic moves because your plan is to get your team into a good position for one of those top 3 picks... I hope that's what this is all about. And that all goes to hell if MT is back next year, which honestly seems like it will be the case. Stamkos would be a dream but the reality is that he will never sign here, not in a million jillion years. The media, the language, the pressure, the coach... it won't work. If I could get in a room and give him my pitch it would be: "Hey man, here is a blank cheque. Here is a blank piece of paper. Fill out the cheque with whatever amount you want. Write down on the paper how many years you want, and who you want as a coach. I'll have Geoff Mol$on sign it and get'er done. Do you like Poutine? Because we can have one named after you. Just put it all down on the paper brother". The NHL now has rules on contract lengths. Montreal , and other teams, can only offer him a max of 7 years .... Tampa is the only team that can offer him 8 years ...
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Post by Skilly on Feb 2, 2016 15:16:54 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team. My target would be Ryan Nugent Hopkins. With McDavid and the emergence of Draisaitl the Oilers have an abundance of offensive depth down the middle. Now they can always move Nugent-Hopkins (or Draisaitl) to the wing, but we know they've been shopping him. They were looking for a stud defenseman, and they look weak on right-wing depth. IF we have a high pick this summer something along the lines of Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov for Beaulieu, our 1st and say Scherbak might get it done. Nugent Hopkins has never lived up to his hype. And he certainly isn't worth a top two defenseman, our only offensive potential prospect, AND a first. Yakupov or no Yakupov this trade makes us weaker on the puck, and doesn't address our scoring. 56 points is RNH's max, we have those players already. We need a game breaker
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Post by mikeg on Feb 2, 2016 15:35:11 GMT -5
You made a point, that if you eliminate really deep draft years (which aren't common) and luck, you're left with the fact you have to draft in the top 5, preferably top 3 to get an elite centre. The hard part is suffering through the pains of getting to that spot. This team has a decent group. Best goalie in the world, a much better than average defense. The weaknesses are all up front. One very good scorer, one decent scorer with huge leadership skills, and one potential very good centre. The farm team doesn't have any potentially great scorers, but there are two possibles in Europe, who are 20 and 21 years old..not too young in other words. If one could draft a centre who can step in next year, there are enough other possibilities to take this team from crappy to pretty darn good, providing they have a good leader at the helm. We don't need to score 3 goals a game, but we do need to be much better than we are now at putting the puck in the net. The league's pretty even, so it doesn't take much to make that kind of swing. I bet every move you see from now to the end of the year is aimed at next season. If, somehow, Tampa lets Stamkos get away and we can get him, who cares if we have to dump $10MM in other salaries. Those 'talents' would be easily replaced by the kids, with little if any drop off in production. Then....we have a team. My target would be Ryan Nugent Hopkins. With McDavid and the emergence of Draisaitl the Oilers have an abundance of offensive depth down the middle. Now they can always move Nugent-Hopkins (or Draisaitl) to the wing, but we know they've been shopping him. They were looking for a stud defenseman, and they look weak on right-wing depth. IF we have a high pick this summer something along the lines of Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov for Beaulieu, our 1st and say Scherbak might get it done. The 3 trades below are all very different and they revolve around the same type of player, each at pretty much the same point in their career, except for Seguin who was still a bit unproven. I think the return is something you need to account for in any trade. Those thinking that Chiarelli or Yzerman will get a massive haul in return are not really clear on the history of these things. Seguin (Elite Prospect), Peverly (Utility Player), and Ryan Button (Low End Prospect) for Loui Erikson (Young Vet/Proven Scorer), Joe MOrrow (B Level Prospect), Reilly SMith (B Level Prospect with Upside), Matt Fraser (B Level Prospect with Grit/Upside) Ryan Johanssen for Seth Jones Joe Thornton (1st line player at this point) for Marco Sturm (top 9 player), Wayne Primeau (depth, veteran) and Brad Stuart (in the prime of his career top 4 d) The reality is that any player made available is done so because the team either does not want them or the player has requested a trade. Their value is low at this point and I think the other GMs know it. RNH could probably fetch any of the above hauls, depending on what the Oilers want/need and want teams are willing to pay. Realistically EDM needs help in nets and on the blue line so any deal will need to address that. When it comes to defense, unless the kid going back is someone like Seth Jones, then no one wants unproven rookies, especially ones like Beaulieu who already have a bad reputation. And goalies... well that's just too hard. And again, Edmonton does not need picks. For the Habs to land RNH they will need to give up veteran top 3 depth on Defense, a potential A list goalie prospect and probably another defenceman, either a young vet with bottom 4-6 potential. Looking at what they have to deal that is something hard to do. They won't give up Subban, Markov has no value to a team like Edmonton (unless he is a toss in), Emelin (nope), Beaulieu (not as a centerpiece), Gilbert/PErty (Edm knows them), Pateryn (nope). So from that standpoint for the type of a player that can step in right away into their top pairing and be a big minute eater... well we don't have it/will not give Subban up, which makes any trade with Edmonton very difficult and almost a non-starter. I don't think they want prospects or picks, they want NHL bodies for their blue line and goal, and we simply don't match up well for that. Having said that, the guy I would target is Malkin. He is signed until he is 35, and his contract is large, but I think you can make an offer to Pittsburgh that would get him. He is 30 next year, and if Pittsburgh were smart they would sell now and get pieces for the short and long term. It is something I think we can help them with. So Malkin, Pascal Dupuis (Salary Dump), Chris Kunitz (Vetran Roster player) for Plekanec (Short term depth, great compliment to Crosby), Gallagher (You gotta give up something), Greg Pateryn (Depth for a group that needs it) and Beaulieu (top 4 d) In this trade Pittsburgh gets better in the short and long term in all areas except for center lol. But they haven't won anything in a while, and the 1-2 Crosby/Malkin punch is not working when the playoffs roll around. We are giving them guys that will do things they need and can help them and we are getting a player who can energize our roster. Will it happen? NEVER. But it's the only thing that makes sense to me lol
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Post by franko on Feb 2, 2016 16:14:55 GMT -5
Malkin, Pascal Dupuis (Salary Dump), Chris Kunitz (Vetran Roster player) for Plekanec (Short term depth, great compliment to Crosby), Gallagher (You gotta give up something), Greg Pateryn (Depth for a group that needs it) and Beaulieu (top 4 d) I know I'm not suggesting any alternatives, but didn't Dupuis retire because of the blood clot issue? and oh, trading Gally away would hurt . . . we'd only be left with perimeter players.
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Post by PTH on Feb 2, 2016 19:58:33 GMT -5
Malkin, Pascal Dupuis (Salary Dump), Chris Kunitz (Vetran Roster player) for Plekanec (Short term depth, great compliment to Crosby), Gallagher (You gotta give up something), Greg Pateryn (Depth for a group that needs it) and Beaulieu (top 4 d) I know I'm not suggesting any alternatives, but didn't Dupuis retire because of the blood clot issue? and oh, trading Gally away would hurt . . . we'd only be left with perimeter players. Frankly, I'd trade Pacioretty before trading Gallagher. To me he's the most untouchable forward we have at this point.
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Post by franko on Feb 2, 2016 21:16:53 GMT -5
I know I'm not suggesting any alternatives, but didn't Dupuis retire because of the blood clot issue? and oh, trading Gally away would hurt . . . we'd only be left with perimeter players. Frankly, I'd trade Pacioretty before trading Gallagher. To me he's the most untouchable forward we have at this point. my thoughts exactly. but with Max just voted captain it won't happen. we only trade our captains after a couple of years
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Post by folatre on Feb 2, 2016 21:47:23 GMT -5
Bergevin and Therrien should start hoping the team has quit.
If they have not, then it is question for ages how one can construct and the other can coach anything that reaches a level of abject futility like this.
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Post by habsorbed on Feb 3, 2016 2:41:49 GMT -5
Bergevin and Therrien should start hoping the team has quit. If they have not, then it is question for ages how one can construct and the other can coach anything that reaches a level of abject futility like this. But if they have quit then doesn't that lie with the gm and the coach. Anyway you slice it MB and MT are responsible. But hold on, MB has taken full responsibility. Silly me for even raising the issue. All's good now that someone has taken responsibility.
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Post by stoat on Feb 3, 2016 3:34:23 GMT -5
I watched the Australian Open on TV and saw how efficiently Novak Djokovic disposed of formidable opponents. In the past few years he's hired a high-priced coach, Boris Becker, who'd helped him mow down formidable opponents. Yet the Habs stick with a coach who hasn't achieved anything and has been fired several times. In his previous turn as coach Therrien cost the Habs a series against Carolina with a bad decision. He foundered with the Penguins when they were better than they are now. How can management pay someone who should be in the Québec league a lot of money to mismanage the Montréal Canadiens?
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Post by stoat on Feb 3, 2016 3:36:49 GMT -5
The coach is not the problem the fact that the forward group on this team is mostly comprised of 3rd and 4th liners is the issue. I don't buy that. The Canadiens rolled up 110 points the previous season with much the same key forwards.
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