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Post by CrocRob on Jan 12, 2009 17:59:46 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about this.
First, you're rewarding a team (again!) for signing a player to an extension and trading him before that extension kicks in. Lecavalier should have been on the market for free come July, and since the contract is signed part of me feels that TB (and Vinny, for that matter) should be stuck with it, or at least we shouldn't bail them out for much different than a rental package.
Second, Lecavalier's shoulder injury worries me. I would hope that Montreal would be doing it's due diligence to ensure they aren't trading for a dud.
Third, Lecavalier's never wanted to play in Montreal. Why the change of heart? All of a sudden it's not so nice in TB because they're losing and he wants to jump ship? Not much character in that.
I've got a bunch more. I'm really split down the middle on this one. Montreal needs to consolidate talent sooner than later. Though I think it should wait until next season or the offseason to see how this team building methodology serves us, Lecavalier won't be available past July 1. I'd still wait until the offseason, and certainly wouldn't get into a bidding war over him.
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 12, 2009 18:03:39 GMT -5
How come this isn't on the main BB for habs stuff instead of on the Non- Habs "Around the League" section ? Geez, no wonder I got scooped....I never look at anything besides the main board. Was wondering why it hadn't yet appeared. Miffed is what I am...embarraserd too....harumph...  Can an Administrator put this thread back where it belongs  Surely this qualifies as Montreal Canadiens Stuff ? If it doesn't I really don't know what does. It wasn't really Habs-specific until yesterday, and it's a trade rumour. Wouldn't that belong in the Trade Rumours area? I don't think "Around the League" discludes the Habs, but that's just me. This is really a Tampa Bay rumour, anyway. |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 12, 2009 18:58:46 GMT -5
I'm a huge Lecavalier fan and would be ecstatic if they ever landed him, but sources close to him say that he has never had any interest in playing in Montreal because he doesn't like being in the spotlight and because he doesn't want the pressure.
Having said that, do we want to give up the farm for a guy who doesn't really want to be on the Habs?
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Post by habsask on Jan 12, 2009 19:49:32 GMT -5
How come this isn't on the main BB for habs stuff instead of on the Non- Habs "Around the League" section ? Geez, no wonder I got scooped....I never look at anything besides the main board. Was wondering why it hadn't yet appeared. Miffed is what I am...embarraserd too....harumph... Can an Administrator put this thread back where it belongs Surely this qualifies as Montreal Canadiens Stuff ? If it doesn't I really don't know what does. , and it's a trade rumour. Wouldn't that belong in the Trade Rumours area? I don't think "Around the League" discludes the Habs, but that's just me. This is really a Tampa Bay rumour, anyway. Well RS, ya got me there. |
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Post by habsask on Jan 12, 2009 20:09:24 GMT -5
As far as the trade itself if the package on the table is what McKenzie says I'd do it.
- Two solid NHL players in Plecks & Gorges;
- an oft injured Higgins who on this Habs team really should be a 3rd line player and who them seem to be doing fine w/o;
- prospect in Subban;
- package of draft picks including m ore than one #1.
For a true game changer in Lecavalier. Big, highly skilled center. Just coming into his prime at 28, will be 29 this March.
Only reservations I have are:
1) Gorges is arguably the best puck moving dman now on the roster or at least one of the two best and they don't appear to have anybody to replace that right now. Or are they ready to gamble on Weber ?
2) the length of Lecavalier's contract, 11 years.
3) the size of Lecav's contract. If the Cap goes down next season and for the foreseeable future then his contract will be taking up a greater proportion with less money to spend on other players. If this deal goes down I would guess that Kovalev's days with the team may be numbered.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 12, 2009 20:23:45 GMT -5
Third, Lecavalier's never wanted to play in Montreal. Why the change of heart? All of a sudden it's not so nice in TB because they're losing and he wants to jump ship? Not much character in that. To my knowledge Lecavalier never said he did not want to play in Montreal or would avoid it like the pest. What he did is sign with the team that drafted him, develloped him and that he won with. Vinny loves TB, is happy there and wanted to retire a Bolt. By signing with Tampa he said no to 29 other teams. If our main criteria is to never acquire a player that once signed elsewhere than we wouldn't have signed Hammer, Kovy, Tanguay, Lang, Georges, Kosto, Begin, BGL, etc... As for his character it should be outlined that it is not Vinny who requested a trade but the rumor always hints that it is Tampa who would now be ready to entertain offers since Lecavalier does not have an NTC before July next year... |
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 12, 2009 20:39:34 GMT -5
Third, Lecavalier's never wanted to play in Montreal. Why the change of heart? All of a sudden it's not so nice in TB because they're losing and he wants to jump ship? Not much character in that. To my knowledge Lecavalier never said he did not want to play in Montreal or would avoid it like the pest. What he did is sign with the team that drafted him, develloped him and that he won with. Vinny loves TB, is happy there and wanted to retire a Bolt. By signing with Tampa he said no to 29 other teams. If our main criteria is to never acquire a player that once signed elsewhere than we wouldn't have signed Hammer, Kovy, Tanguay, Lang, Georges, Kosto, Begin, BGL, etc... As for his character it should be outlined that it is not Vinny who requested a trade but the rumor always hints that it is Tampa who would now be ready to entertain offers since Lecavalier does not have an NTC before July next year... To quote Bob McKenzie (not that it's the first such mention of this) In the past, those who know him best, say he's never wanted anything to do with the notion of returning to his home province and being the Francophone star of the Montreal Canadiens. Without a doubt the character of Tampa's management is.. *ahem* questionable. I just want to know why the change of heart, is all. It has nothing to do with him re-signing in Tampa Bay. I understand that and don't care. It has to do with the printed rumours about him, as Bob put it, "never wanting anything to do with the notion of returning to his home province." I don't want a guy who thinks that. Do you? |
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Post by seventeen on Jan 12, 2009 20:41:30 GMT -5
Sorry, HabSask, it's a trade thread, but still only a mouseclick away for everyone!
I would hate, absolutely hate to give up Gorges. I can live without Higgins, though it may come back to bite us if he takes one more step up, and Plekanec is a given, since he wouldn't beat out either of Vinny or Saku and the other centres are in their rightful spots. Subban would be necessary because of talent/potential reasons to the trade. I was suprised at the possibility of someone else coming back from Tampa. I'd also hate to give up our #1, in the 09 draft, which is also pegged to be a strong one. I'd rather give up another prospect, of which we have many.
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 12, 2009 20:52:35 GMT -5
I just want to know why the change of heart, is all. ...Dunno. Maybe Tampa realized that the team is really not that good (even with Vinny) and nothing really interesting is about to come up from the farm... In other words, years and years of rebuilding solely through drafts ahead of them... Instead they take a shortcut, trade their star for multiple quality young players and ice a better team right away. Kinda like what Philly did with Forsberg. Vinny is the prime lamb they sacrifice to feed the whole team. as Bob put it, "never wanting anything to do with the notion of returning to his home province." I don't want a guy who thinks that. Do you? I don't buy that. I know Bob isn't a wind bag but I'm hearing contradicting versions... In Montreal Vinny participates in local events, shows, movies, publicity, etc... He really does not act like a guy who wants to avoid public contact at all cost. Could be denial on my part mind you... |
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Post by jkr on Jan 12, 2009 21:32:15 GMT -5
Sorry, HabSask, it's a trade thread, but still only a mouseclick away for everyone! I would hate, absolutely hate to give up Gorges. I can live without Higgins, though it may come back to bite us if he takes one more step up, and Plekanec is a given, since he wouldn't beat out either of Vinny or Saku and the other centres are in their rightful spots. Subban would be necessary because of talent/potential reasons to the trade. I was suprised at the possibility of someone else coming back from Tampa. I'd also hate to give up our #1, in the 09 draft, which is also pegged to be a strong one. I'd rather give up another prospect, of which we have many. I really share your reservations about Gorges, It would leave the team too thin on D. |
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Post by Doc Holliday on Jan 12, 2009 21:57:00 GMT -5
Sorry, HabSask, it's a trade thread, but still only a mouseclick away for everyone! I would hate, absolutely hate to give up Gorges. I can live without Higgins, though it may come back to bite us if he takes one more step up, and Plekanec is a given, since he wouldn't beat out either of Vinny or Saku and the other centres are in their rightful spots. Subban would be necessary because of talent/potential reasons to the trade. I was suprised at the possibility of someone else coming back from Tampa. I'd also hate to give up our #1, in the 09 draft, which is also pegged to be a strong one. I'd rather give up another prospect, of which we have many. I really share your reservations about Gorges, It would leave the team too thin on D. Players you'd hate losig are those other team would love to have and vice versa. ...if Vinny becomes a HABS via transaction though, you can bet that many player we'd rather not lose will go the other way. |
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Post by Douper on Jan 12, 2009 22:25:38 GMT -5
I really share your reservations about Gorges, It would leave the team too thin on D. Players you'd hate losig are those other team would love to have and vice versa. ...if Vinny becomes a HABS via transaction though, you can bet that many player we'd rather not lose will go the other way. I think the only untouchable is Carey Price. You don't trade a future 40 Win - 5 to 10 SO man. We did once and fell in a 13 year dulldrum. Higgins, Plekanec, O'Byrne, McDonaugh or PK, Kristo, 1st 09... Really doesn't bother me except Carey followed by a close second by Pacioretty and our 6 starting Dmen. LeCavalier - Kovalev - Paciorrety would be one scary line to play against! |
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Post by Forum Ghost on Jan 12, 2009 22:39:24 GMT -5
This isn't the first time Vinny's thought about becoming a Hab. Read it here. |
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Post by Marvin on Jan 12, 2009 23:00:47 GMT -5
Is Lecavalier married, and if so, where is his wife from? Something tells me he's married to someone from Tampa.
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 12, 2009 23:09:24 GMT -5
Is Lecavalier married, and if so, where is his wife from? Something tells me he's married to someone from Tampa. Girlfriend from Tampa. |
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Post by roke on Jan 12, 2009 23:36:03 GMT -5
I really share your reservations about Gorges, It would leave the team too thin on D. Players you'd hate losig are those other team would love to have and vice versa. ...if Vinny becomes a HABS via transaction though, you can bet that many player we'd rather not lose will go the other way. My problem with trading Gorges not only has to do with the fact that I'd hate to lose him, but our defense would be woefully thin, almost Ottawa like, with a better top 3. Boullion, and 2 of Boullion/Dandeneault/Brisebois/Weber on the bottom 3 is not something I would feel comfortable with going into the playoffs this year. |
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Post by Tankdriver on Jan 13, 2009 0:15:17 GMT -5
Another thing of interest is, Josh is Carey's best friend and roomate on the team. It's not business essentiel but it does keep the #1 goalie happy and one more reason to sign cheaper next year once that contract comes up.
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Post by CrocRob on Jan 13, 2009 1:32:49 GMT -5
Another thing of interest is, Josh is Carey's best friend and roomate on the team. It's not business essentiel but it does keep the #1 goalie happy and one more reason to sign cheaper next year once that contract comes up. That's something that doesn't get a lot of play. I fully expect Carey to be getting a raise north of $4M and possibly as much as $6M depending on how the next 16-18 months go |
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Post by habsask on Jan 13, 2009 3:05:09 GMT -5
Sorry, HabSask, it's a trade thread, but still only a mouseclick away for everyone! I would hate, absolutely hate to give up Gorges. I can live without Higgins, though it may come back to bite us if he takes one more step up, and Plekanec is a given, since he wouldn't beat out either of Vinny or Saku and the other centres are in their rightful spots. Subban would be necessary because of talent/potential reasons to the trade. I was suprised at the possibility of someone else coming back from Tampa. I'd also hate to give up our #1, in the 09 draft, which is also pegged to be a strong one. I'd rather give up another prospect, of which we have many. Right you are 17 about the click- I'll just have to start paying more attention to other parts of the site.  Losing Gorges would be my main concern as well. He's become important to this team and I doubt if he can be easily replaced (or replaced at all) this season. The number #1 pick or picks (2 but I'd go no higher) don't concern me so much as these would be at the bottom end of the 1st round and I think the Habs would have to be more than lucky to get a player of Lecav's stature with these and they're already well stocked with prospects/young players for the next few years. It all boils down to how often do you get a chance at a Lecavalier so you have to give up some serious assets to get him. With Lecav a fixture for the next 7 or 8 years one would hope that the Habs would be able to bring along Weber next season and then their other prospects (McDonough) soon after. |
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Post by habsask on Jan 13, 2009 3:14:19 GMT -5
Players you'd hate losig are those other team would love to have and vice versa. ...if Vinny becomes a HABS via transaction though, you can bet that many player we'd rather not lose will go the other way. My problem with trading Gorges not only has to do with the fact that I'd hate to lose him, but our defense would be woefully thin, almost Ottawa like, with a better top 3. Boullion, and 2 of Boullion/Dandeneault/Brisebois/Weber on the bottom 3 is not something I would feel comfortable with going into the playoffs this year. I agree it certainly wouldn't be ideal and I'd rather not trade Gorges. But there are very few teams (none?) that don't have a soft spot somewhere. That's the nature of a "Capped" NHL. Same thing with the NFL. So the question becomes would you rather take your chances with the current line-up, which doesn't have a top go-to guy / leader, or with one that features Lecavalier but has a weak spot on defence? Tough choice but if McKenzie is right BG may have already made his choice. It would be a bold move with some risk but there's also a risk in standing pat. I've criticized Gainey in the past for not making bold moves so if he does so here I'll support him. Which of course isn't worth a hill of beans. Cheers.  PS As an aside, I'm not thrilled to read in McKenzie's piece that Lecav may have a shoulder that hasn't yet recovered from an operation. A star with a bum shoulder isn't exactly what the team needs. |
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Post by franko on Jan 13, 2009 7:06:12 GMT -5
Reading some Bruin talk, someone mentioned Fernandez, Ferrence, and draft pick or minor players.
And I thought we were dreamers! cue the music
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Post by Polarice on Jan 13, 2009 7:15:08 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that our defence is off limits, including most of out kids playing in the minors!!
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Post by Skilly on Jan 13, 2009 7:56:30 GMT -5
I love Josh Gorges, but I am not sure why everyone all of a sudden gets cold feet at the prospect of losing him .... we have had scenario after scenario of what it would cost to land a player like Lecavalier and 95% of them involved a roster playing defenseman going the other way. BUT this rumour has something that NONE of the others had that I can remember.... a roster playing defensman coming this way.
Paul Ranger is a good NHL defenseman. He sticks up for his teammates (like Josh), and is a great character guy (like Josh). And they are both 24 ....
Statistically, there is not much to choose between the two either:
Ranger = 2G , 9A, 11pts , -1 (that -1 is pretty impressive on a poor Tamps Bay team that is 5th worst in the entire NHL in goals against ... the leading defensman on TB is +2)
Gorges = 1G, 7A, 8pts, +16 (impressively leads his team in plus-minus)
I don't know .... it just seems to me, that we are losing Josh Gorges and gaining a Josh Gorges clone, so the trade, to me, boils down to Lecavalier for Higgins+Pleky+prospects/picks .... That is a steal IMO, for us!! I'd advice Gainey to sign, sign quickly, and try not to smirk and giggle too much before the ink dries ...
But the bubble bursting item that will cost us hope that this rumour is true is the salary cap .... I don't think it is workable ... well, it may be, but it means players are going to be sent to Hamilton, and we better hope the injury bug doesn't bite again...
Lecavalier (6.875) + Ranger (0.933) = 7.808
Thats another thing that bugs me, everyone talks of Vinny's huge contract being a problem. It's only the salary cap hit thats gonna count. Yes he has years of 10 million, but the cap hit is only 6.875 this year, and 7.727 for his entire 11 year extension.
Higgins (1.7) + Pleky (1.6) + Gorges (1.1) = 4.400
We'd have to demote Pacioretty, Weber, D'Agostini, Chipchura which would only account for about (it is approximate because I haven't actually calculated from when they were all called up) 1 million. If we demote Halak (and he may have to clear waivers) and brought up Denis, that could save about 0.500. This 1.5 million is actuallly 3 million since only half the year is left .... so now we are close, but not quite there to finding that 3.408 million difference in the contracts ....
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Post by blny on Jan 13, 2009 8:05:40 GMT -5
Reading some Bruin talk, someone mentioned Fernandez, Ferrence, and draft pick or minor players. And I thought we were dreamers! cue the musicLOL ... a 30 something back-up, a 5-6 defender on many teams and a draft pick that wouldn't be very high this year? Nice. How about starting at Wheeler, Lucic, picks/prospects? |
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Post by Disp on Jan 13, 2009 8:15:34 GMT -5
Fly under the radar in Tampa, or be a god in Montreal? Just say yes Vinny. The habs could pay his salary with the extra jersey sales . I'd be surprised if it included Gorges since Bob is trying to get another puck mover. Higgins, Pleks, PK and a couple picks? No problem. |
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Post by Marvin on Jan 13, 2009 8:18:00 GMT -5
The rumor out of Calgary is Matthew Lombardi and Dion Phaneuf (who is having a very Dion-unlike year, thus far) to TB for Vinny.
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Post by franko on Jan 13, 2009 8:19:34 GMT -5
Reading some Bruin talk, someone mentioned Fernandez, Ferrence, and draft pick or minor players. And I thought we were dreamers! cue the musicLOL ... a 30 something back-up, a 5-6 defender on many teams and a draft pick that wouldn't be very high this year? Nice. How about starting at Wheeler, Lucic, picks/prospects? That's a 30 something injured] [and injury-prone] back-up . . . though, of course, "he'd be a starter on any other team in the league [oh, really? well, maybe Ottawa -- they have a penchant for signing back-ups as starters]. It is one thing to over-estimate the value of your players . . . but sheesh! |
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Post by franko on Jan 13, 2009 8:25:23 GMT -5
I But the bubble bursting item that will cost us hope that this rumour is true is the salary cap .... I don't think it is workable ... well, it may be, but it means players are going to be sent to Hamilton, and we better hope the injury bug doesn't bite again... The cap hit that bothers me is next year's . . . and the year after . . . and the . . . Already we have a bunch of guys who are in for raises next year [sure we don't have to worry about Higgins and Pleks] . . . who else will we have to let go? Koivu, Kovy, Lang, and Tanguay are all UFAs. [Price and Halak are locked up cheaply for another year] .Maybe we'll be able to pick someone else up on the cheap to fill in for two of the four mentioned; maybe D'Ags and Pacs will be ready . . . but who are the minor leaguers that will be thrown in? Do we wind up "rebuilding" around Vinny? Just wondering the long-term ramifications, that's all. |
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Post by CentreHice on Jan 13, 2009 8:27:09 GMT -5
Every time I've seen Vinnie play in Montreal, he certainly seems to like it.  Imagine if he could bring that to every game in a Habs' jersey...... It would be worth the packages presented here....with the exception of Gorges. |
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Post by jkr on Jan 13, 2009 8:42:17 GMT -5
I love Josh Gorges, but I am not sure why everyone all of a sudden gets cold feet at the prospect of losing him .... we have had scenario after scenario of what it would cost to land a player like Lecavalier and 95% of them involved a roster playing defenseman going the other way. BUT this rumour has something that NONE of the others had that I can remember.... a roster playing defensman coming this way. Paul Ranger is a good NHL defenseman. He sticks up for his teammates (like Josh), and is a great character guy (like Josh). And they are both 24 .... Statistically, there is not much to choose between the two either: Ranger = 2G , 9A, 11pts , -1 (that -1 is pretty impressive on a poor Tamps Bay team that is 5th worst in the entire NHL in goals against ... the leading defensman on TB is +2) Gorges = 1G, 7A, 8pts, +16 (impressively leads his team in plus-minus) I don't know .... it just seems to me, that we are losing Josh Gorges and gaining a Josh Gorges clone, so the trade, to me, boils down to Lecavalier for Higgins+Pleky+prospects/picks .... That is a steal IMO, for us!! I'd advice Gainey to sign, sign quickly, and try not to smirk and giggle too much before the ink dries ... But the bubble bursting item that will cost us hope that this rumour is true is the salary cap .... I don't think it is workable ... well, it may be, but it means players are going to be sent to Hamilton, and we better hope the injury bug doesn't bite again... Lecavalier (6.875) + Ranger (0.933) = 7.808 Thats another thing that bugs me, everyone talks of Vinny's huge contract being a problem. It's only the salary cap hit thats gonna count. Yes he has years of 10 million, but the cap hit is only 6.875 this year, and 7.727 for his entire 11 year extension. Higgins (1.7) + Pleky (1.6) + Gorges (1.1) = 4.400 We'd have to demote Pacioretty, Weber, D'Agostini, Chipchura which would only account for about (it is approximate because I haven't actually calculated from when they were all called up) 1 million. If we demote Halak (and he may have to clear waivers) and brought up Denis, that could save about 0.500. This 1.5 million is actuallly 3 million since only half the year is left .... so now we are close, but not quite there to finding that 3.408 million difference in the contracts .... I fully understand your point about Gorges vs. Ranger. If it's a wash in most respects, why trade them at all. It's not just Gorges that concerns me Skilly, it's losing depth on defense. |
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