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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 11:41:12 GMT -5
comments are crazy, from "we've got to protect ourselves and go get them" to "It's all Harper's fault" -- like this one (from the NP article):
crazy!
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 11:51:45 GMT -5
aside: Leaf/Sens game will probably be cancelled tonight; fans tweeting Bettman not to dither but just call it off; NHL "monitoring" the situation. Are there moderate Muslim leaders who can preach that the doctrines of jihad and martyrdom (the chief two) are to be phased out? Much like diving authority for stoning and slavery in the Old Testament are no longer condoned by the leaders. The only problem with that approach is that it's taught that the Qur'an is the perfect recitation of the word of Allah. Perfect. Beyond reproach. How can a moderate Imam dance around that without being labelled a heretic and quite possibly putting himself and his family in danger? Gonna be a long evolution toward a brighter future. |
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 11:52:00 GMT -5
2 guards had been shot, one in the leg (the other just through clothing?). both doing well.
the lockdown area increasing.
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 11:54:52 GMT -5
Are there moderate Muslim leaders who can preach that the doctrines of jihad and martyrdom (the chief two) are to be phased out? Much like diving authority for stoning and slavery in the Old Testament are no longer condoned by the leaders. The only problem with that approach is that it's taught that the Qur'an is the perfect recitation of the word of Allah. Perfect. Beyond reproach. How can a moderate Imam dance around that without being labelled a heretic and quite possibly putting himself and his family in danger? some have preached that the doctrine is a misinterpretation. you are right, they become targets as well. how many centuries did it take Christianity? |
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 12:01:56 GMT -5
announcing that the guardsman has died.
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Post by Polarice on Oct 22, 2014 12:02:34 GMT -5
The problem is that the government lets these people back into Canada knowing that they were overseas training with ISIS. They are inviting something like this to happen.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 12:05:25 GMT -5
Islam is about 400 years younger than Christianity. And some areas of our world still have Christian-related problems: Northern Ireland for one.
Hope mainstream moderation doesn't take that long.
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 12:08:42 GMT -5
Islam is about 400 years younger than Christianity. And some areas of our world still have Christian-related problems: Northern Ireland for one. NI is not a religious issue, it is a political issue with a religious excuse. but I'll grant you that there are Christian-related issues everywhere. |
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 12:09:43 GMT -5
The problem is that the government lets these people back into Canada knowing that they were overseas training with ISIS. They are inviting something like this to happen. except, Reap, they don't always "go and come back". some are "stay-at-homers", radicalized here, and attack here. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 12:10:01 GMT -5
comments are crazy, from "we've got to protect ourselves and go get them" to "It's all Harper's fault" -- like this one (from the NP article): crazy! It's not crazy, it's NDP. Wait unti Nice Hair Boy get's in it too. Obviously, it's Harper's fault. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 12:14:02 GMT -5
The problem is that the government lets these people back into Canada knowing that they were overseas training with ISIS. They are inviting something like this to happen. It's not that complicated to charge these people with joining and participating in criminal acts by criminal organization. Good luck with making it stick in courts and duck from the outcry of the "their mommy didn't love them enough". |
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Post by Polarice on Oct 22, 2014 12:20:11 GMT -5
The problem is that the government lets these people back into Canada knowing that they were overseas training with ISIS. They are inviting something like this to happen. It's not that complicated to charge these people with joining and participating in criminal acts by criminal organization. Good luck with making it stick in courts and duck from the outcry of the "their mommy didn't love them enough". It's pretty easy to cancel their passport not allowing them back into the country. That day is coming sooner rather than later!! |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 12:23:56 GMT -5
Zero-tolerance for the intolerant preachments and those who are brainwashed into belief and subsequent action.
There's no other way.
And hope that Islam reforms itself out of these principles. But to do that would mean that their book isn't perfect.
What a nice totalitarian safeguard its put in place...along with "death" to many things that speak/act against it.
=================================================
The other choice is to sit back and do nothing except capitulate under threat, or because our multi-cultural idealists don't want to disrespect a faith, and then we'll see what it's like to live under a theocracy. Everything our ancestors fought for to get and preserve our rights and freedoms will have been for naught. It'll be anything BUT multi-cultural.
I truly believe that will not be allowed to happen in this country. There are enough people in power who are ON to that game.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 12:27:13 GMT -5
It's not that complicated to charge these people with joining and participating in criminal acts by criminal organization. Good luck with making it stick in courts and duck from the outcry of the "their mommy didn't love them enough". It's pretty easy to cancel their passport not allowing them back into the country. That day is coming sooner rather than later!! What wannabe moron said this? "I think that a lot of Canadians, including very conservative Canadians, should be worried about the state willing to, and taking the power to, arbitrarily remove citizenship from people," he said. "That's a slippery slope that I don't think we want to go on."Any wonder why I think that he's the lap dog petting airhead of politics? |
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 22, 2014 12:30:08 GMT -5
I tend to believe all "Books" are perfect, it is the unperfect way in which people choose to manipulate these books for their own desires that is the issue. No religion teaches hatred, people teach religion and thus they teach hatred.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 12:38:49 GMT -5
Can we PLEASE agree Islam is a violent political movement as much as it is a religion. PLEASE.
We all agree that freedom of religion is a fundamental right.....and it is....but political Islam is NOT a religion and we MUST STOP treating it as a religion.
Those that adhere to any part of political Islam should be immediately suspect as one who has joined a criminal organization. Period.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 12:43:36 GMT -5
Can we PLEASE agree Islam is a violent political movement as much as it is a religion. PLEASE. We all agree that freedom of religion is a fundamental right.....and it is....but political Islam is NOT a religion and we MUST STOP treating it as a religion. Those that adhere to any part of political Islam should be immediately suspect as one who has joined a criminal organization. Period. Yessir! |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 12:53:49 GMT -5
The HUGE upside is that these pieces of garbage are DEAD. Bullet ridden dead.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 13:03:48 GMT -5
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 22, 2014 13:11:39 GMT -5
Can we PLEASE agree Islam is a violent political movement as much as it is a religion. That would be like saying Catholicism is a violent political movement because of Siin Fein as much as it is a religion, and that is nonsense imo.... there are almost 2 billion muslims in the world and imo, over 99.99% of those are not involved in any way with the crazies that hurt people in the name of Islam. These people are not part of Political Islam, imo, they are just trying to do everything they can to build a better life for themselves and their families. Political Islam is about control and fear, whether it is Qatari or Saudi financed (Sunni insurgents, ISIL), Iranian financed (Shiite insurgents/Hezbollah) or western financed or created (Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas). Further to this, the innocents hurt today should be prayed for regardless of your beliefs or opinions because there is no place for these horrific actions in our society. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 13:18:41 GMT -5
And the extremists' beliefs are indoctrinated using actual words in their holy books, WD. Nothing is misinterpreted or twisted. Just like slavery and genocide (among other things) are divinely warranted in the Old Testament. The slave trade used those passages in defense of what they were doing. It's called religious fundamentalism because it takes its teaching from the fundamentals of the religion. If religion becomes more moderate, it's because rational thought about the well-being of fellow creatures has triumphed. Jews no longer stone people who work on the Sabbath, even though Yahweh told Moses it was mandatory to do so. There are around 603 commandments that follow the classic 10 in Exodus, which spell out a lot of things we no longer deem rational. I really don't want to get into this debate on this forum, though.....so I'm done on that front here. We can go elsewhere if you wish.  |
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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 22, 2014 13:35:00 GMT -5
And the extremists' beliefs are indoctrinated using actual words in their holy books, WD. Nothing is misinterpreted or twisted. Just like slavery and genocide (among other things) are divinely warranted in the Old Testament. The slave trade used those passages in defense of what they were doing. It's called religious fundamentalism because it takes its teaching from the fundamentals of the religion. If religion becomes more moderate, it's because rational thought about the well-being of fellow creatures has triumphed. Jews no longer stone people who work on the Sabbath, even though Yahweh told Moses it was mandatory to do so. There are around 603 commandments that follow the classic 10 in Exodus, which spell out a lot of things we no longer deem rational. I really don't want to get into this debate on this forum, though.....so I'm done on that front here. We can go elsewhere if you wish. No worries bud. I am still under lockdown and have no idea when we will be allowed to leave. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 13:44:03 GMT -5
Can we PLEASE agree Islam is a violent political movement as much as it is a religion. That would be like saying Catholicism is a violent political movement because of Siin Fein as much as it is a religion, and that is nonsense imo.... there are almost 2 billion muslims in the world and imo, over 99.99% of those are not involved in any way with the crazies that hurt people in the name of Islam. These people are not part of Political Islam, imo, they are just trying to do everything they can to build a better life for themselves and their families. Political Islam is about control and fear, whether it is Qatari or Saudi financed (Sunni insurgents, ISIL), Iranian financed (Shiite insurgents/Hezbollah) or western financed or created (Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas). I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing....or simply misunderstanding. I have no issue with Islam practiced as a religion. I have issue with POLITICAL ISLAM. What we may or may not have a disagreement and you may or may not take issue is that Islam is as much inherently political as it is a faith. What we don't disagree with is how people interpret and practice it. By all means, those who practice it's faith should be respected, but those who step over the line and join Islam's political aspects should be seen with suspicious eye. As for your example.....Sinn Fein, it was a political movement that had a religious identifier. No Irishman was fighting to create a religious state. On the other hand, people are fighting to create a state in Islam's name and power. Massive difference and it goes back to my argument that Islam is inherently political...as much as it is about faith. Edit: Yes, one can argue that Christianity was, the operative word here WAS also about political power and control, but we have separated and willfully collapsed it's political power (mostly). The separation of Church and state is the foundation of MODERN Western society. Something that has not happened to Islam. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 13:47:06 GMT -5
I am still under lockdown and have no idea when we will be allowed to leave. WD...you're killing me with curiosity. IF you want, pm me what or where you are. IF you want..... |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 22, 2014 14:05:22 GMT -5
Are there moderate Muslim leaders who can preach that the doctrines of jihad and martyrdom (the chief two) are to be phased out? There are, they just don't get a lot of press here in the West. For reasons I will let others debate. But there have been many, many Islamic leaders who have stood up and denounced ISIS. The Prime Minister of Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, has called ISIS "an embarrassment to Islam." Egypt's top Islamic authority has said that ISIS extremists are “far from the correct understanding of Islam.” The majority of Kurds, much to the amazement of most, are Muslim. Shuja Shafi, of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: “Violence has no place in religion, violence has no religion." 100 Sunni and Shiite religious leaders from the U.K. produced a video denouncing the Islamic State, saying they wanted to “come together to emphasise the importance of unity in the UK and to decree ISIS as an illegitimate, vicious group who do not represent Islam in any way.” The Arab League Chief denounced acts committed by the Islamic State in Iraq as “crimes against humanity,” demanding that they be brought to justice, and he "strongly denounced the crimes, killings, dispossession carried out by the terrorist (ISIS) against civilians and minorities in Iraq that have affected Christians in Mosul and Yazidis." The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) – the largest Muslim group in the U.S. – called ISIS un-Islamic and morally repugnant. The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) – the largest Muslim organization on the continent - released a statement denouncing the Islamic State “for its attacks on Iraq’s religious minorities and the destruction of their places of worship.” ISNA President Imam Mohamed Magid said, “ISIS actions against religious minorities in Iraq violate the Quranic teaching, ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’ … ” adding, “Their actions are to be denounced and are in no way representative of what Islam actually teaches.” Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority has condemned the armed groups Islamic State and al-Qaeda as apostates and labelled them the “number one enemy of Islam”. (this one seems dubious)Turkey's highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State's declaration of a "caliphate" and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters: "Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever," Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920s. "Since the caliphate was abolished ... there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective." Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging. "The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this (because) an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization," he told Reuters in an interview. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 14:23:48 GMT -5
Thanks, BC. I'm aware of that...
Having those doctrines expunged should be the focus...so are they ready to say their holy scriptures and/or hadith are imperfect?
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 14:33:42 GMT -5
Thanks, BC. I'm aware of that... Having those doctrines expunged should be the focus...so are they ready to say their holy scriptures and/or hadith are imperfect? they'd say it's an imperfect interpretation; an interpretation based on wrong motives. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 14:42:20 GMT -5
That's a start BC....they are offsetting all too many "religious scholars" that preach the opposite. Particularly on the internet.
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Post by blny on Oct 22, 2014 14:49:02 GMT -5
I'm not going to contribute to spiraling into a religious debate.
This is where I sit. If it comes out that the perpetrators of today's acts in Ottawa turn out to be on the list of people the Canadian Government knew had gone to the Middle East for paramilitary training - and then were allowed back into Canada - our government should be ashamed of itself. Harper came out last week acknowledging being aware of a list of people residing in Canada who had gone overseas to be trained and had been allowed to return to Canada.
Simply put, if you leave this country to train with a paramilitary group with terrorist ties, then you don't come back. Your citizenship is void. Your Canadian passport is no longer valid, and if you attempt to travel using it you're arrested.
It's likely the events in Quebec yesterday and in Ottawa today are related. If they are, you can bet it won't be the last. I certainly hope that police in Ottawa are able to capture those involved alive. Then, do whatever it takes to get intel out of them.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 14:52:38 GMT -5
Agree, blny.
That's a great starting point.
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