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Post by Willie Dog on Oct 22, 2014 14:53:44 GMT -5
They just lifted the lockout... I get to go home....
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Post by franko on Oct 22, 2014 14:55:34 GMT -5
Simply put, if you leave this country to train with a paramilitary group with terrorist ties, then you don't come back. Your citizenship is void. Your Canadian passport is no longer valid, and if you attempt to travel using it you're arrested. as soon as parliament passes the law, and the Supreme Court OKs it. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 15:04:53 GMT -5
I'm not going to contribute to spiraling into a religious debate. This is where I sit. If it comes out that the perpetrators of today's acts in Ottawa turn out to be on the list of people the Canadian Government knew had gone to the Middle East for paramilitary training - and then were allowed back into Canada - our government should be ashamed of itself. Harper came out last week acknowledging being aware of a list of people residing in Canada who had gone overseas to be trained and had been allowed to return to Canada. Simply put, if you leave this country to train with a paramilitary group with terrorist ties, then you don't come back. Your citizenship is void. Your Canadian passport is no longer valid, and if you attempt to travel using it you're arrested. I agree with you and go further..... If you join a criminal terrorist organization, you should be charged. Is there a doubt that training overseas terrorist group is joining a criminal organization? But here is the problem. As you heard from our little Justin and passports, there WAS little appetite to criminally charge these people......until something like this happens. There should be no doubt that without cause, anything Harper did to go after them was going to be "charging them with thought crimes" and "no proof of a crime". With todays event, it clears the path to not only revoking citizenship but also making the "joining a criminal terrorist organization and participating in criminal activities" legislation stick. Look at the piece of crap that ran down two people yesterday. They knew for a long time he was dangerous but they could not charge with with anything. Never underestimate how a crisis like this can change society outlook.....and make things that we thought were out of the question acceptable. The libertarian midget on my shoulder asks....how far are we prepared to go with this? |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 15:06:38 GMT -5
Simply put, if you leave this country to train with a paramilitary group with terrorist ties, then you don't come back. Your citizenship is void. Your Canadian passport is no longer valid, and if you attempt to travel using it you're arrested. as soon as parliament passes the law, and the Supreme Court OKs it. With a Harper majority, parliament passing it is easy....Supreme Court? good luck.... |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 22, 2014 15:09:10 GMT -5
They just lifted the lockout... I get to go home.... Life MUST go on.....or the garbage won. |
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Post by Skilly on Oct 22, 2014 16:08:14 GMT -5
American media are identifying the gunman as Michael Zihaf-Bibeau
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Post by Doc Holliday on Oct 22, 2014 16:59:00 GMT -5
...a guy from Montreal... Linked in some way apparently to Martin Couture...
...just food for thoughts: I don't want to demonize Islam, I really don't... but this morning on the radio there was guy who wrote a book on how Montreal is getting to be a very fertile soil for Islam... in his opinion almost THE North American capital of Islam... The interviewer than said "...ok but obviously not all Islamic people are radical or violent..."... and he replied "...you are absolutely correct, but then again how do you feel about people, as peaceful as they can be, who absolutely do not share your basic values of equality between men and women, freedom of speech, etc.."
again just food for thoughts.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 22, 2014 17:53:30 GMT -5
There's an important distinction to be made here.
We're criticizing the IDEAS…because, as we've seen for centuries….ideas foster beliefs…and beliefs lead to actions. BAD ideas lead to BAD behaviours.
For centuries the Catholic Church was just fine with burning witches. Why? Exodus 22:18. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
A divine commandment to believe in and kill witches is a BAD idea. Burning them is a BAD behaviour. There were no doubt Christians in that era who thought it was all nonsense….but they had little power to stop it.
But it DID stop. "Reason" prevailed.
Fast-forward a few hundred years, and we're still saddled with BAD ideas and people with little power to stop them.
The Qur'an CAN'T be criticized. It's perfect…and any interpretation, other than by a cleric using the original Arabic, is mistaken.
Well, isn't that convenient? (Research this info, folks….I implore you.)
BC posted that many Islamic leaders and institutions have denounced these types of actions.
Then they should be willing to declare that the doctrines of jihad and martyrdom are BAD ideas which should be ignored/removed from all Islamic teachings….then actually ignore/remove them.
I'm sure moderate Muslims would all be in favour of such an amendment. But, again, the scriptures are perfect….and criticism can and does bring severe consequences. See the problem?
In every other area of human discourse, it's okay to be critical to get to the truth. In fact, progress and human well-being depend upon it.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 4:02:20 GMT -5
A couple of posts I wrote elsewhere....
Tp someone who said Muslims are supporting terrorism and looking the other way......
The libertarian midget on my right shoulder..
To Muslims are not the problem....(and a video linked supplied by a friend)
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 4:07:17 GMT -5
Again somewhere else....
Who is the enemy?
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 4:44:27 GMT -5
Are there moderate Muslim leaders who can preach that the doctrines of jihad and martyrdom (the chief two) are to be phased out? There are, they just don't get a lot of press here in the West. For reasons I will let others debate. But there have been many, many Islamic leaders who have stood up and denounced ISIS. The Prime Minister of Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, has called ISIS "an embarrassment to Islam." Egypt's top Islamic authority has said that ISIS extremists are “far from the correct understanding of Islam.” The majority of Kurds, much to the amazement of most, are Muslim. Shuja Shafi, of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: “Violence has no place in religion, violence has no religion." 100 Sunni and Shiite religious leaders from the U.K. produced a video denouncing the Islamic State, saying they wanted to “come together to emphasise the importance of unity in the UK and to decree ISIS as an illegitimate, vicious group who do not represent Islam in any way.” The Arab League Chief denounced acts committed by the Islamic State in Iraq as “crimes against humanity,” demanding that they be brought to justice, and he "strongly denounced the crimes, killings, dispossession carried out by the terrorist (ISIS) against civilians and minorities in Iraq that have affected Christians in Mosul and Yazidis." The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) – the largest Muslim group in the U.S. – called ISIS un-Islamic and morally repugnant. The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) – the largest Muslim organization on the continent - released a statement denouncing the Islamic State “for its attacks on Iraq’s religious minorities and the destruction of their places of worship.” ISNA President Imam Mohamed Magid said, “ISIS actions against religious minorities in Iraq violate the Quranic teaching, ‘Let there be no compulsion in religion’ … ” adding, “Their actions are to be denounced and are in no way representative of what Islam actually teaches.” Saudi Arabia’s highest religious authority has condemned the armed groups Islamic State and al-Qaeda as apostates and labelled them the “number one enemy of Islam”. (this one seems dubious)Turkey's highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State's declaration of a "caliphate" and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters: "Such declarations have no legitimacy whatsoever," Mehmet Gormez, head of the Religious Affairs Directorate, the highest religious authority in Turkey, which, although a majority Muslim country, has been a secular state since the 1920s. "Since the caliphate was abolished ... there have been movements that think they can pull together the Muslim world by re-establishing a caliphate, but they have nothing to do with reality, whether from a political or legal perspective." Gormez said death threats against non-Muslims made by the group, formerly known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), were hugely damaging. "The statement made against Christians is truly awful. Islamic scholars need to focus on this (because) an inability to peacefully sustain other faiths and cultures heralds the collapse of a civilization," he told Reuters in an interview. The last post of the late night..... First a distinction... ....quoting ISIS and political Islam denouncers living in West has little or no impact on those who practice it in their own Islamic states. In fact, if they did not denounce it while living in the West, they are part of the problem. ....denouncement made by religious leaders that ISIS are evil outliers of Islam while they are the very power of subjugating people to the political control of Islam is at the very least, hypocritical. Reality is that the social practice and control of political Islam through Sharia Law is widespread and accepted. There are currently 71 countries that are from entirely to partially ruled buy Sharia Law. Yes, 71 countries. I was surprised too. One can argue that living under Sharia Law and political Islam is not by itself violent. While true, we can't overlook that it also means that you have people immersed in completely different core social and political values that are foreign or hostile to Western social and political core values. As is normal for humans, those core values become deep identifier of tribalism and they are not easily or willingly abandoned by either side. So conflict is and will be inevitable. Seven hundred years of proof. Is there even a remote acceptable argument that the West should appease and co-exist or subjugate with or under Sharia Law and political Islam within it's borders? Or allow states within states like some of the current 71 countries? Given the above, how do you separate the ubiquitous and subjugation power of Sharia Law from political Islam? Do you think that all these 71 countries will convert and accept the foundational Western ideology of the separation of church and state? Next few generations? If ever? I do not see "peace" in the sense that we are use to from formerly aggressive Western nations. I see continuous multi generational conflict between states and proto-states that will ebb and flow. Worse still, I foresee civil war outbreaks as some Western countries Muslim population explode within their borders. it's already happening in Africa. What can we do about it? How does it resolve? I'm still too angry to answer acceptably...... |
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Post by BadCompany on Oct 23, 2014 8:23:49 GMT -5
as soon as parliament passes the law, and the Supreme Court OKs it. With a Harper majority, parliament passing it is easy....Supreme Court? good luck.... There are already similar laws in Canada. Bill C-95 for example, which was Quebec's stab at ending the deadly Biker Wars that plagued the province two decades ago, states the following: "Every one who participates in or substantially contributes to the activities of a criminal organization knowing that any or all of the members of the organization engage in or have, within the preceding five years, engaged in the commission of a series of indictable offences… of which the maximum punishment is imprisonment for five years or more… is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years."That's an existing law. As are Bills C-24 and C-25, which could also be implied. The US has the RICO law. There are limitations of course, but they already go much further then many people think they do. The problem is that not all of these people are part of organizations. I'm looking at the last two incidents, in St. Jean and at the parliament, and without knowing the full details, or the full results of the investigations, it looks like in both cases we're talking about Lone Wolfs. Or, perhaps more appropriately, Lone Losers. You see I can't help but wonder if Jihadists are the new "Cool Kids" for the basement masturbators. Competing with the Hell's Angels, Crips, Aryan Nation and the Trenchcoat Mafia. If it wasn't Islam, would it have been something else? Hatred of bullies? Hatred of cops? Hatred of women? This isn't to dismiss what is happening in the world. Radical Islam is most certainly a world-wide and growing problem. But when I see losers like these two I can't help but think they were just ticking time-bombs to begin with, and were it not for Islam they would be shooting up a McDonald's for some other reason. |
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Post by franko on Oct 23, 2014 8:40:12 GMT -5
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Post by Polarice on Oct 23, 2014 8:52:27 GMT -5
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 14:43:10 GMT -5
Either Gabriel has formulated and given that answer a few times prior….or she's got what Hitchens had.
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 15:26:55 GMT -5
Wow......a baseball bat answer..... Here is what I think.... The West needs to separate and discredit political Islam, which fundamentally is attacking Sharia Law. Give it no quarters in ANY Western country. Even a hint of "religious tolerance" on a political ideology is appeasement. Promote and push it in any peaceful manner possible on those countries who are now under Sharia Law and shun those those countries who wont move forward. Cries from some quarters that we "let them live their lives as they want" sounds reasonable, but it goes against our fundamental ideology. I do not propose that we invade those who don't conform to our ideology, but neither do we have to recognize or support them. The Muslim Brotherhood taking over Egypt should have been a Western tragedy and an onslaught of rejection rather then "it's their right to choose". Basically, condemning an entire society to religious intolerance and hate........so we can feed our political correctness disease. The Western ideology of "co-existing" and "tolerance" has no place on a political ideology built on subjugation. Nor excusing the violence as "radical" or "fundamentalist" action. The implication of those words is that it's the outlier narrative rather then seeing it in it's overall subjugative form. Divide, deny and demonize political Islam.......just like we did with the political power of religion in our society........and there will be progress and peace. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 15:37:26 GMT -5
With a Harper majority, parliament passing it is easy....Supreme Court? good luck.... There are already similar laws in Canada. Bill C-95 for example, which was Quebec's stab at ending the deadly Biker Wars that plagued the province two decades ago, states the following: "Every one who participates in or substantially contributes to the activities of a criminal organization knowing that any or all of the members of the organization engage in or have, within the preceding five years, engaged in the commission of a series of indictable offences… of which the maximum punishment is imprisonment for five years or more… is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years."That's an existing law. As are Bills C-24 and C-25, which could also be implied. The US has the RICO law. There are limitations of course, but they already go much further then many people think they do. The problem is that not all of these people are part of organizations. I'm looking at the last two incidents, in St. Jean and at the parliament, and without knowing the full details, or the full results of the investigations, it looks like in both cases we're talking about Lone Wolfs. Or, perhaps more appropriately, Lone Losers. You see I can't help but wonder if Jihadists are the new "Cool Kids" for the basement masturbators. Competing with the Hell's Angels, Crips, Aryan Nation and the Trenchcoat Mafia. If it wasn't Islam, would it have been something else? Hatred of bullies? Hatred of cops? Hatred of women? This isn't to dismiss what is happening in the world. Radical Islam is most certainly a world-wide and growing problem. But when I see losers like these two I can't help but think they were just ticking time-bombs to begin with, and were it not for Islam they would be shooting up a McDonald's for some other reason. Even though I played a lawyer on tv.....I'm only superficially aware of those laws. I will read more about them. Law have a secondary and even more important component. Are the courts going to enforce them and is there a public will to accept the results. I'll put forth that before Monday, the majority of Canadians were susceptible to Evil Harper going after the innocent rhetoric. Today, it's reversed. Last week, any charges on those who had intent to join ISIS was going to be a losing political and social battle. Today, it's probably seen by most as a cautious approach to mitigate domestic terrorism. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 16:15:37 GMT -5
[ Even a hint of "religious tolerance" on a political ideology is appeasement. Promote and push it in any peaceful manner possible on those countries who are now under Sharia Law and shun those those countries who wont move forward. Cries from some quarters that we "let them live their lives as they want" sounds reasonable, but it goes against our fundamental ideology. I do not propose that we invade those who don't conform to our ideology, but neither do we have to recognize or support them. Fully agree, HA. "Religious tolerance" is what it tries to hide under...and the politically-correct and/or multi-cultural proponents somehow fall for it. As Salman Rushdie says in his video above, it doesn't mean you're "right wing" if you recognize and declare an enemy. And when it comes to Sharia, we cannot give any toe-hold to the barbaric practices of that law. Honour/shame killings, the intolerance of homosexuality, the inequality of women, etc. If someone wants to practice it privately--as did the Shafia husband-wife-son who murdered their three daughters/sisters and the husband's first wife near KIngston in 2009--they must continue to be charged, convicted, and sentenced according to our secular law. Here's what happens when sitting back so as "not to offend" becomes 100% shameful. Anybody heard about this town in jolly old England? Rotherham |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 23, 2014 16:31:38 GMT -5
One of the most poignant moments in Canadian parliamentary history. With gratitude and respect, thank you Mr Vickers.
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Post by franko on Oct 23, 2014 17:01:29 GMT -5
I'll put forth that before Monday, the majority of Canadians were susceptible to Evil Harper going after the innocent rhetoric. Today, it's reversed. Last week, any charges on those who had intent to join ISIS was going to be a losing political and social battle. Today, it's probably seen by most as a cautious approach to mitigate domestic terrorism. I disagree, the 30-34% that back Harper and/or are "protectionists" may have gone up a few percentage points. within a few days -- OK, I'll give it weeks -- it will start to decline. the "Harper-is-evilists" are already saying that "this just gives the fascist more opportunity to take away our rights and swing his big war-mongering club" and that (yup, you've got it) "we need to understand that if North American politicians hadn't been so keen to involve ourselves in affairs that aren't ours (and Harper weren't so pro-Israel) this never would have happened. next up: "peace in our time"  |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 17:07:02 GMT -5
 Bruce MacKinnon, Halifax Chronicle Herald. Viral. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 23, 2014 17:56:21 GMT -5
A cut and paste from Sun News " ... we must stand proud": ... Nor has murderous, psychotic rage against Canadians been limited to those with Islamist inclinations.
In recent decades this country has witnessed several distinct gun massacres at Quebec schools, a Vancouver passenger plane bombing that killed 331, a madman shooting up the Quebec parliament, a disgruntled former employee of an Ottawa bus company murdering four ex-coworkers, failed assassination attempts against Prime Minister Chretien and Quebec Premier Marois, the successful assassination of deputy Quebec premier Pierre Laporte, and dozens of bombings launched by the French-Canadian extremist group the Front de libération du Québec. |
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Post by franko on Oct 23, 2014 17:57:23 GMT -5
Bruce MacKinnon, Halifax Chronicle Herald. Viral. deservedly so |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 18:16:10 GMT -5
I'll put forth that before Monday, the majority of Canadians were susceptible to Evil Harper going after the innocent rhetoric. Today, it's reversed. Last week, any charges on those who had intent to join ISIS was going to be a losing political and social battle. Today, it's probably seen by most as a cautious approach to mitigate domestic terrorism. I disagree, the 30-34% that back Harper and/or are "protectionists" may have gone up a few percentage points. within a few days -- OK, I'll give it weeks -- it will start to decline. the "Harper-is-evilists" are already saying that "this just gives the fascist more opportunity to take away our rights and swing his big war-mongering club" and that (yup, you've got it) "we need to understand that if North American politicians hadn't been so keen to involve ourselves in affairs that aren't ours (and Harper weren't so pro-Israel) this never would have happened. next up: "peace in our time" There was and alwaus be appeasers......and gross hypocrites. Ask them about what they value the most and they will give you a litany of answers, including wanting others to have the same....yet see no contradiction in letting others be denied and suffer. I'm very sure that if we don't lend a hand in stopping ISIS, by the latest, in a week, ISIS garbage will turn into saints. Two tops..... |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 18:16:38 GMT -5
A cut and paste from Sun News " ... we must stand proud": ... Nor has murderous, psychotic rage against Canadians been limited to those with Islamist inclinations.
In recent decades this country has witnessed several distinct gun massacres at Quebec schools, a Vancouver passenger plane bombing that killed 331, a madman shooting up the Quebec parliament, a disgruntled former employee of an Ottawa bus company murdering four ex-coworkers, failed assassination attempts against Prime Minister Chretien and Quebec Premier Marois, the successful assassination of deputy Quebec premier Pierre Laporte, and dozens of bombings launched by the French-Canadian extremist group the Front de libération du Québec.While that's true....it doesn't minimize the issue at hand in terms of how we deal with it. Each horrendous act has its own context. |
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Post by Cranky on Oct 23, 2014 18:17:17 GMT -5
Bruce MacKinnon, Halifax Chronicle Herald. Viral. Wow...... |
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Post by franko on Oct 23, 2014 18:20:56 GMT -5
and then there's Glenn Greenwald: It is always stunning when a country that has brought violence and military force to numerous countries acts shocked...when someone brings a tiny fraction of that violence back to that country.he wrote this after the car attack Monday (and has since updated it) link to full article:in essence, while our involvement in the middle east does not justify the attack Monday (and perhaps Wednesday), it caused it. |
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Post by Disgruntled70sHab on Oct 23, 2014 18:31:33 GMT -5
A cut and paste from Sun News " ... we must stand proud": ... Nor has murderous, psychotic rage against Canadians been limited to those with Islamist inclinations.
In recent decades this country has witnessed several distinct gun massacres at Quebec schools, a Vancouver passenger plane bombing that killed 331, a madman shooting up the Quebec parliament, a disgruntled former employee of an Ottawa bus company murdering four ex-coworkers, failed assassination attempts against Prime Minister Chretien and Quebec Premier Marois, the successful assassination of deputy Quebec premier Pierre Laporte, and dozens of bombings launched by the French-Canadian extremist group the Front de libération du Québec.While that's true....it doesn't minimize the issue at hand in terms of how we deal with it. Each horrendous act has its own context. I don't think anyone was trying to minimize anything ... I took it as, step back and take a breath ... Cheers. |
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 18:38:02 GMT -5
If the demand is: "Let us do wicked things in the name of our god or we'll kill you. We're not afraid to become martyrs because our god will reward us richly."
Our response cannot be: "Well, that makes complete sense. Totally logical in fact. Sorry, if we've caused you any trouble. We'll stay out of your hair..."
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EDIT: Even though there have been many instances in which we did not help other countries fend off extremist, political Islam.
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Post by CentreHice on Oct 23, 2014 19:03:52 GMT -5
While that's true....it doesn't minimize the issue at hand in terms of how we deal with it. Each horrendous act has its own context. I don't think anyone was trying to minimize anything ... I took it as, step back and take a breath ... Cheers. I know, Dis. It just reads like something one could twist to argue: "We've had horrible things happen before...and we've been fine afterwards. This is just another one to add to that list." |
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