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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 2:00:34 GMT -5
Shaw for Debrincat .... that’s a loss I disagree. It wasn't Shaw for Debrincat, it was Shaw for draft picks. If Chicago drafted well or badly, that's a whole other issue. Except for trades directly on the draft floor based on who is available, or trading a potential high first rounder which goes on to be a high pick, I consider trades for draft picks to be trades for currency, and the later use of that currency is a different ball game altogether. What happens to the 20$ bill I get when selling a trading card has no influence on whether or not 20$ was a good price. If I win at the casino or blow it on junk food, it's a different matter entirely than the sale price. Same with draft picks: we traded a pick, and someone else got to use it, most likely in a different way than we'd have used it. Will the trade for Allen be any different if one of the teams does very well with on the guys picked in the 7th round and the other team's guy fades into nothingness ? Of course not. Would the Trevor Linden trade be any different for us because the guy the NYI picked didn't work out ? |
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Post by Skilly on Sept 8, 2020 8:14:29 GMT -5
Shaw for Debrincat .... that’s a loss I disagree. It wasn't Shaw for Debrincat, it was Shaw for draft picks. If Chicago drafted well or badly, that's a whole other issue. Except for trades directly on the draft floor based on who is available, or trading a potential high first rounder which goes on to be a high pick, I consider trades for draft picks to be trades for currency, and the later use of that currency is a different ball game altogether. What happens to the 20$ bill I get when selling a trading card has no influence on whether or not 20$ was a good price. If I win at the casino or blow it on junk food, it's a different matter entirely than the sale price. Same with draft picks: we traded a pick, and someone else got to use it, most likely in a different way than we'd have used it. Will the trade for Allen be any different if one of the teams does very well with on the guys picked in the 7th round and the other team's guy fades into nothingness ? Of course not. Would the Trevor Linden trade be any different for us because the guy the NYI picked didn't work out ? Then no one should be upset we didn't get a chance at the number one ball under that logic. Lafreniere could have broken his ankle and never skate again waiting to get drafted, or could be a bust ...its only currency. And they shouldn't be upset we now draft 16, because we don't know who will be available Now more seriously. I was answering a post where the premise was the Danault trade was a win, because we also got ROMANOV. In, my response, I said, not sure how you can use that argument, and not say the Shaw trade was for Debrincat. Cause if it is looked at that way, it is a clear loss. If it is not, then you can't include Romanov when evaluating the Danault trade. People on here lament all the time about losing draft picks because it is a shot at so-and-so … |
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Post by PTH on Sept 8, 2020 8:21:43 GMT -5
Lafrenière is different, in that he's a very high-end player, and we all know the best talent goes in the top 5 of every draft. Trading for the 1st overall wouldn't be trading without knowing who we're getting. But for Romanov, I agree, though a young Danault and a 2nd for 2 not-special-at all rentals would still count as a win in my book (though taking out Romanov means it's a win based on Danault becoming a player), and the give and go with Shaw looks ok to me - 2 2nds turned into a 2nd and a 3d for a few seasons of a guy is a solid package. |
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 8, 2020 10:10:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that. We signed a lot over the years. But difficult in Montreal Really??!! I'm very interested to know whom you believe was an impact UFA that has signed with the Habs since Reggie Houle was GM. Cammarelli was good player. Big part of getting to final 4 next year. Cole was good player. Gionta, Hamrlik was solid signing. We signed number of good free agents. |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 8, 2020 13:11:15 GMT -5
Really??!! I'm very interested to know whom you believe was an impact UFA that has signed with the Habs since Reggie Houle was GM. Cammarelli was good player. Big part of getting to final 4 next year. Cole was good player. Gionta, Hamrlik was solid signing. We signed number of good free agents. I'd class those guys as middling players. Average or slightly better than average, but they're not John Tavares, which is the type of player we need. Basketball can be a good analogy. There are players who are quite good and can fill roles, but if you give them the ball and tell them "We need 2 points", they can't create their own offense. Then there are the guys who break down teams by beating someone one on one, or drawing a double team and feeding (the guy in the first example) a good 3 point shooter for a dagger 3. IMO, players in the difference maker category aren't interested in coming to Montreal. Why not go to Colorado instead, where they have as much CAP space and a much better team with prospects like Byram and Newhook on the horizon and a well regarded GM like Sakic and good coach like Bednar. Above everything else, you have to develop a winning team and a good culture. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 8, 2020 20:23:19 GMT -5
Above everything else, you have to develop a winning team and a good culture. These are things our illustrious owner and fashion statement GM have failed to accomplish over the past 8 years... and counting... Players speaking out publicly is an indication they have failed... |
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 9, 2020 5:32:55 GMT -5
Cammarelli was good player. Big part of getting to final 4 next year. Cole was good player. Gionta, Hamrlik was solid signing. We signed number of good free agents. I'd class those guys as middling players. Average or slightly better than average, but they're not John Tavares, which is the type of player we need. Basketball can be a good analogy. There are players who are quite good and can fill roles, but if you give them the ball and tell them "We need 2 points", they can't create their own offense. Then there are the guys who break down teams by beating someone one on one, or drawing a double team and feeding (the guy in the first example) a good 3 point shooter for a dagger 3. IMO, players in the difference maker category aren't interested in coming to Montreal. Why not go to Colorado instead, where they have as much CAP space and a much better team with prospects like Byram and Newhook on the horizon and a well regarded GM like Sakic and good coach like Bednar. Above everything else, you have to develop a winning team and a good culture. These Canadiens fans here in Montreal, haven't had a shot at a Cup for 27 years in a row. Not a hope and prayer going into camp each year. Half of those years were terrible hockey teams. Now, is the time for the owners to step up and give the fans something back. Instead of going 8 million under the cap every year. Give them another quality player to get excited about! Now is the time to do it. While Koktaniemi and Suzuki are under entry level contracts. In 2 years they both be eating up much of the 14 million we have in cap space. They won't be able to do it. Plus, while Weber and Price still have a couple of years left. In 2 years they both be on back end of their careers. |
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Post by Anardil1 on Sept 9, 2020 11:12:40 GMT -5
Really??!! I'm very interested to know whom you believe was an impact UFA that has signed with the Habs since Reggie Houle was GM. Cammarelli was good player. Big part of getting to final 4 next year. Cole was good player. Gionta, Hamrlik was solid signing. We signed number of good free agents. There's the rub. There is a vast difference between IMPACT and GOOD players. The fact remains that the Habs are handicapped when it comes to the three pillars of team building. One of the pillars has crumbled. You have to admit that there is a problem when Tavares refused to even take the Berg's call. When Shanahan accepted to be wine & dined by the Habs. when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. The list is longer, but these are the only examples I can remember at the moment. It's like going to the butcher wanting to buy Kobe beef, and they refuse to sell it to you, offering you chuck steak instead. It is a perfectly GOOD cut of meat, but not the IMPACT of a piece of Kobe. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 9, 2020 11:53:43 GMT -5
So tired of being a below middling team with no prospect of a cup on the horizon... all of Bergs impact moves have been either neutral or negative impact on the team....
Weber for PK - neutral
Drouin for Sergachev - negative
Signing Drouin as the highest paid forward - negative
Signing Price to that ridiculous contract - negative
Alzner for Markov - negative
Patches for Tatar and Suze - neutral (for now)
Offer sheet for Aho - negative (and embarrassing)
I'm sure there are more...
And the rest of his moves have been half assed imo. As long as we have a GM who believes half assed attempts to improve the team will be enough.... we will never be a contender... our GM is a real H.A.B.
Half Assed Bergevin
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Post by PTH on Sept 9, 2020 14:15:32 GMT -5
....when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. ... A lot of all that is just the media trying to drum up interest in.... something. I recall Sundin was interviewed and was genuinely surprised that there was any kind of expectation he'd sign in Montreal. It might also just be his agent refusing to deny anything or shut any doors, even if Sundin hadn't shown interest in signing here. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 9, 2020 15:44:24 GMT -5
....when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. ... A lot of all that is just the media trying to drum up interest in.... something. I recall Sundin was interviewed and was genuinely surprised that there was any kind of expectation he'd sign in Montreal. It might also just be his agent refusing to deny anything or shut any doors, even if Sundin hadn't shown interest in signing here. I forgot all about Sundin... there have been so many... so frustrating. |
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Post by jkr on Sept 9, 2020 20:20:37 GMT -5
As I recall, Gainey courted Sundin quite seriously but I think this was the Gorges to Toronto scenario in reverse. After so many years with the Leafs, he probably just could not see himself playing with Montreal.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 9, 2020 20:42:47 GMT -5
As I recall, Gainey courted Sundin quite seriously but I think this was the Gorges to Toronto scenario in reverse. After so many years with the Leafs, he probably just could not see himself playing with Montreal. How True... Josh was a true Hab imo... He didnt want to leave |
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 10, 2020 8:08:50 GMT -5
Cammarelli was good player. Big part of getting to final 4 next year. Cole was good player. Gionta, Hamrlik was solid signing. We signed number of good free agents. There's the rub. There is a vast difference between IMPACT and GOOD players. The fact remains that the Habs are handicapped when it comes to the three pillars of team building. One of the pillars has crumbled. You have to admit that there is a problem when Tavares refused to even take the Berg's call. When Shanahan accepted to be wine & dined by the Habs. when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. The list is longer, but these are the only examples I can remember at the moment. It's like going to the butcher wanting to buy Kobe beef, and they refuse to sell it to you, offering you chuck steak instead. It is a perfectly GOOD cut of meat, but not the IMPACT of a piece of Kobe. Yeah well, if Canadiens aren't going to spend their money, you want to get ready for next 27 years to be as bad as last 27 years. Bergevin might be good at trading, but Timmins couldn't hold a candle to many top scouts like Al Murray. Many teams will spend. If free agency is out for Habs. You best invest in paper towel. Because you going to do a lot of crying next 27 years. |
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Post by Anardil1 on Sept 10, 2020 11:21:32 GMT -5
....when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. ... A lot of all that is just the media trying to drum up interest in.... something. I recall Sundin was interviewed and was genuinely surprised that there was any kind of expectation he'd sign in Montreal. It might also just be his agent refusing to deny anything or shut any doors, even if Sundin hadn't shown interest in signing here. If he had no interest in signing with the Habs, then he should have said so. Or Gainey didn't do his due diligence before trading for the negotiation rights. Either way, it is further proof that impact UFAs have the Habs on their do not sign list, at the same level as Winnipeg IMO. |
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Post by Anardil1 on Sept 10, 2020 13:05:56 GMT -5
There's the rub. There is a vast difference between IMPACT and GOOD players. The fact remains that the Habs are handicapped when it comes to the three pillars of team building. One of the pillars has crumbled. You have to admit that there is a problem when Tavares refused to even take the Berg's call. When Shanahan accepted to be wine & dined by the Habs. when Sundin hemmed and hawed for weeks before finally refusing to sign with the Habs. The list is longer, but these are the only examples I can remember at the moment. It's like going to the butcher wanting to buy Kobe beef, and they refuse to sell it to you, offering you chuck steak instead. It is a perfectly GOOD cut of meat, but not the IMPACT of a piece of Kobe. Yeah well, if Canadiens aren't going to spend their money, you want to get ready for next 27 years to be as bad as last 27 years. Bergevin might be good at trading, but Timmins couldn't hold a candle to many top scouts like Al Murray. Many teams will spend. If free agency is out for Habs. You best invest in paper towel. Because you going to do a lot of crying next 27 years. You are completely ignoring the point. The Habs do sign free agents, they do spend money. So the UFA option of team building is not a viable one, especially when the Habs are as attractive a destination as Winnipeg, as far as impact UFAs are concerned. I have long accepted the fact that Free Agent Frenzy for the most part does not include the Habs. It appears that you have yet to accept this fact. If we are to witness a return to glory of our favourite franchise, it will have to be because management has achieved being elite at drafting and trading players. Free agency will continue to be used to fill in the cracks. |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 10, 2020 13:55:12 GMT -5
The Habs do sign free agents, they do spend money. So the UFA option of team building is not a viable one, especially when the Habs are as attractive a destination as Winnipeg, as far as impact UFAs are concerned. I have long accepted the fact that Free Agent Frenzy for the most part does not include the Habs. It appears that you have yet to accept this fact. If we are to witness a return to glory of our favourite franchise, it will have to be because management has achieved being elite at drafting and trading players. Free agency will continue to be used to fill in the cracks.
Bob Gainey was one of the most respected men in hockey and he managed to sign who....Brian Gionta? Bergevin signed Radulov, which was a good choice, but once his NHL value was re-established, others were more willing to jump into the picture and poof, he's gone. Daniel Briere? I'm having trouble coming up with names other than 4th liners or 3rd pair defensemen. If Ben Chiarot is the rebuttal, I think the matter has been resolved.
IN all fairness, I suspect the 1970 Habs would have attracted several UFA's if there were such a thing at the time. Since 1995, though, I can't see any UFA (even if they existed before 2004) wanting to play for the Habs, climate and taxes aside. They've been losers all that time. What a waste of guys like Saku Koivu, Carey Price, PK, and Gallagher.
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Post by frozone on Sept 10, 2020 16:10:06 GMT -5
There definitely haven't been many impact free agents to sign with the Habs. Erik Cole Cammalleri Gionta Hamrlik Radulov Kovalev... technically signed as a UFA Georges Laracque (does he count?  ) These are probably the biggest signings that I can think of. No point including guys like Spacek, although his prime in the league was that of a top pairing D generally on weak teams. Obviously, this isn't a particularly impressive list, but it isn't as big of a disgrace as we make it out to be. Take Duchene as an example: would signing Duchene really have been more impactful than the Kovalev signing? Or the Cammy signing? And was Duchene's peak in the league so much better than theirs? Remember that Duchene is now in the back 9 of his career. A decade from now, Preds fans might very well look back on that signing as that of a has-been, kinda similar to how we view the above list. But just because these players were aging vets at the time of their signing doesn't mean they weren't highly sought after guys on July 1st. Do we have difficulty luring UFA's? Yes, of course. But only a select few teams get the chance to sign a star player in his prime on the UFA market. And this is the type of signing that we're clearly missing out on. It will take an overpayment to land such a player so I don't expect it to happen while MB has any control over the budget. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 10, 2020 17:06:43 GMT -5
Is Danault being shopped?
Rags/Sabres possible trade partners???
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Post by franko on Sept 10, 2020 17:16:43 GMT -5
Eklund . . . is that you?
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 10, 2020 17:26:44 GMT -5
Eklund . . . is that you? e5 |
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Post by folatre on Sept 10, 2020 18:08:09 GMT -5
Friedman could be hearing things, though most likely with nothing being even remotely advanced let alone concrete.
However, one cannot help but wonder if Bergevin has started talking basics and parameters with all his key guys coming due to be 2021 UFAs. And perhaps if he is putting numbers on the table – hypothetically let’s say Petry 4 years/$24 million, Danault 5 years/$23.5 million, Tatar 4 years/$21 million, Armia 4 years/$14.5 million – there is an undercurrent of a message that says “first come, first served,” implying that Montreal cannot logically keep them all in a flat cap landscape so whoever wants security in uncertain times better speak up soon because the offer may not be there later.
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Post by GNick99 on Sept 10, 2020 20:24:50 GMT -5
Yeah well, if Canadiens aren't going to spend their money, you want to get ready for next 27 years to be as bad as last 27 years. Bergevin might be good at trading, but Timmins couldn't hold a candle to many top scouts like Al Murray. Many teams will spend. If free agency is out for Habs. You best invest in paper towel. Because you going to do a lot of crying next 27 years. You are completely ignoring the point. The Habs do sign free agents, they do spend money. So the UFA option of team building is not a viable one, especially when the Habs are as attractive a destination as Winnipeg, as far as impact UFAs are concerned. I have long accepted the fact that Free Agent Frenzy for the most part does not include the Habs. It appears that you have yet to accept this fact. If we are to witness a return to glory of our favourite franchise, it will have to be because management has achieved being elite at drafting and trading players. Free agency will continue to be used to fill in the cracks. If Habs aren't going to spend their money, 6 to 8 million under the cap each year. And other teams are? Combined with average drafting from Timmins. Montreal will never come close to a cup in next lifetime. Parity in league is so close, with those 2 negatives. No, never be a cup, or compete for a cup in Montreal. They may trade well, yes, but it is not enough to make up the difference. Doubtful anybody on this board will live long enough to see a cup in Montreal. Odds are stacked against it. |
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Post by PTH on Sept 10, 2020 20:50:41 GMT -5
Friedman could be hearing things, though most likely with nothing being even remotely advanced let alone concrete. However, one cannot help but wonder if Bergevin has started talking basics and parameters with all his key guys coming due to be 2021 UFAs. And perhaps if he is putting numbers on the table – hypothetically let’s say Petry 4 years/$24 million, Danault 5 years/$23.5 million, Tatar 4 years/$21 million, Armia 4 years/$14.5 million – there is an undercurrent of a message that says “first come, first served,” implying that Montreal cannot logically keep them all in a flat cap landscape so whoever wants security in uncertain times better speak up soon because the offer may not be there later. I think you have a good point here.... players should be open to signing for lesser numbers if they want security. Then again, most players are willing to be on themselves (ie, they are young and successful and assume the upwards trend will continue) and assume the money will be there later. |
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Post by PTH on Sept 10, 2020 20:51:44 GMT -5
As I recall, Gainey courted Sundin quite seriously but I think this was the Gorges to Toronto scenario in reverse. After so many years with the Leafs, he probably just could not see himself playing with Montreal. From what I read, he just didn't realize Montreal was really that interested. |
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 10, 2020 21:51:38 GMT -5
Offer sheet values have gone up even though the cap is flat
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Post by seventeen on Sept 10, 2020 23:15:02 GMT -5
Friedman could be hearing things, though most likely with nothing being even remotely advanced let alone concrete. However, one cannot help but wonder if Bergevin has started talking basics and parameters with all his key guys coming due to be 2021 UFAs. And perhaps if he is putting numbers on the table – hypothetically let’s say Petry 4 years/$24 million, Danault 5 years/$23.5 million, Tatar 4 years/$21 million, Armia 4 years/$14.5 million – there is an undercurrent of a message that says “first come, first served,” implying that Montreal cannot logically keep them all in a flat cap landscape so whoever wants security in uncertain times better speak up soon because the offer may not be there later. "Take less than you can get elsewhere to stay in Montreal because I'm such a good GM I cant help but lead you to the promised land". I'd definitely call his bluff on that one. Leave Montreal, get more money. Tough choice. (Hey, I was in Montreal once, loved what I saw [some person parallel parking by bumping the car in front and the car behind them]) so no slight to the city, just to Bergevin's bargaining tactics. You want loyalty, get a dog...or better yet, sign elsewhere. |
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Post by seventeen on Sept 10, 2020 23:18:17 GMT -5
Offer sheet values have gone up even though the cap is flat We are SO going to regret that goofy offer to Aho. Four 1st rounders would have been worth it and you could recoup some of that by moving either Suzuki or KK if necessary. But a trio of Aho, Suzuki and KK sounds pretty good to me. Sayonara Max and Phil. |
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 11, 2020 1:36:40 GMT -5
A lot of talk out there with teams having internal caps in the low 70's. There could be some good buys out there. It's why I thin Allen comes in at a little too much.i wonder if hall would do 60 for 7 years.
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Post by folatre on Sept 11, 2020 18:14:33 GMT -5
If gate is zero or drastically reduced in 2020-21, the cap is going to stay flat beyond the next two seasons which have already been confirmed. This is not going to put much of a damper on what the Pietrangelos, Halls, and Krugs of the world get next month, but guys like Tatar, Danault, among dozens of other around the league, should think long and hard about grabbing security if the overall numbers are fair.
It’s crazy but the financial climate could actually be much grimmer come the summer of 2021 if the league sees revenue decline compared the stress points already hit revenue wise in 2019-20. Owners will likely lose far more real money in 2020-21 than they did in 2019-20 (e.g. Geoff Molson only lost four home dates so he basically made what he forecast to make), so if Bergevin is offering Danault 5/23.5 and Tatar 4/21 and they want to say no thanks and bet on themselves, then that is their right but I would question their judgment, in particular if Bergevin has the first come first served signed in front of his office.
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