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Post by folatre on Aug 18, 2022 19:22:00 GMT -5
It is hard to understand why it would be Dach holding anything up. His body of work on his ELC was underwhelming. And another underwhelming top five 2019 draft alum (Kakko) already established a logical market reference point (2 years, $2.1 AAV) for Dach.
The only thing I can think of is that Montreal's management want to be absolutely sure Dubois is not coming to the Habs this summer. Because in that event Winnipeg will want Dach (they do not want an American like Dvorak who seemingly has not been elated about moving to Canada) and maybe Gorton and Hughes want to give Winnipeg a chance to do something long-term with Dach since the Jets' organization always fears core RFAs dragging their feet on signing long-term.
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Post by jkr on Aug 18, 2022 19:31:57 GMT -5
If he doesn't like playing in Canada maybe Dvorak can go back to Arizona and play in their 5000 seat arena. Even his old team, the London Knights, have a bigger stadium.
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Post by folatre on Aug 29, 2022 13:18:13 GMT -5
Dvorak's name is out there in the days heading into the final days of summer. Frankly, I would be in no hurry to move him. His contract is reasonable for what he produces and where he slots into the lineup. It would be nice, obviously, if he could find another gear or two in terms of productivity and intensity.
One would have to imagine that after the holiday weekend, management is basically going to remind Dach and his agent that the best offers (though unlikely there could be more than one depending on term) are on the table so get on with it and sign. Kakko only got $2.1 per and Zadina, who has identical numbers to Dach, settled for a $1.825 AAV on a three year deal. Is Dach's agent hoping for a Kotkaniemiesque offer sheet? I do not see one coming because almost no clubs have the liquidity to make it happen and Dach's injury history would likely further dampen potential interest.
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Post by seventeen on Aug 29, 2022 14:28:31 GMT -5
I wouldn't think he's an offer sheet candidate. Too many question marks and any reasonable offer sheet is likely to be matched (Hughes is no Bergevin).
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Post by Cranky on Aug 29, 2022 18:44:54 GMT -5
Did they talk to Dach before the trade?
Dach needs to prove himself if he thinks he's worth more then 2 million. A wrist injury could be gone or still linger and that's a career changer.
I'm not thrilled that he's not signed. It doesn't go this long without a reason.
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Post by PTH on Aug 29, 2022 23:17:59 GMT -5
Dvorak's name is out there in the days heading into the final days of summer. Frankly, I would be in no hurry to move him. His contract is reasonable for what he produces and where he slots into the lineup. It would be nice, obviously, if he could find another gear or two in terms of productivity and intensity. I suspect management thinks Dvorak is too slow for the kind of game StLouis wants us to play. And he should still have value. |
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Post by habsorbed on Aug 30, 2022 0:39:06 GMT -5
Dvorak's name is out there in the days heading into the final days of summer. Frankly, I would be in no hurry to move him. His contract is reasonable for what he produces and where he slots into the lineup. It would be nice, obviously, if he could find another gear or two in terms of productivity and intensity. I suspect management thinks Dvorak is too slow for the kind of game StLouis wants us to play. And he should still have value. I read a few days ago that Dvo had the best PPG on the team after Marty took over. I'm a big believer that players often need time to adjust when traded and don't perform all that well their first year with a new team. I wouldn't be in any rush too trade Dvo. His value would seem to be low right now so won't gain much. And it's possible/likely he has a strong year this year. Seeing as we ain't making any noise this year, there should be no rush to move him. As for having too many centres, I'd play Evans on the wing. And while we want to get Monahn good TOI so he can increase his value come trade deadline, the trade with the Flames is still a win even if Monahan is a bust - so play him on the wing too if need be. But Dach should be given every opportunity to excel at centre. |
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Post by frozone on Aug 30, 2022 7:37:28 GMT -5
I suspect management thinks Dvorak is too slow for the kind of game StLouis wants us to play. And he should still have value. I read a few days ago that Dvo had the best PPG on the team after Marty took over. I'm a big believer that players often need time to adjust when traded and don't perform all that well their first year with a new team. I wouldn't be in any rush too trade Dvo. His value would seem to be low right now so won't gain much. And it's possible/likely he has a strong year this year. Seeing as we ain't making any noise this year, there should be no rush to move him. As for having too many centres, I'd play Evans on the wing. And while we want to get Monahn good TOI so he can increase his value come trade deadline, the trade with the Flames is still a win even if Monahan is a bust - so play him on the wing too if need be. But Dach should be given every opportunity to excel at centre. He had 17 points in 22 games, so not quite on the same pace as Caufield or Suzuki, but that's still 63 pts over a full schedule. With his contract, that would fetch quite a return. Not that I think he will live up to those numbers, but I have no doubt that he'll perform better than he did under DD. So I agree with not rushing him out the door. |
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Post by folatre on Sept 1, 2022 13:37:20 GMT -5
I know that Hughes has executed some big trades in nine months on the job, but I am not counting on anything right now. Even with Price headed to LTIR, the Habs just cannot take on more dollars and with cap space nearly unavailable around the league, it seems like a fantasy to imagine the magic trick of moving one of Montreal's anchor contracts.
Camp should be very competitive because for me whichever veteran forward (or two) looks disinterested and a step slow is likely to be sent down to Laval. Management will not risk losing a younger player on a good value contract (Evans, Pitlick, or Pezzetta) to a waivers claim. So basically there are a handful of vets (Armia, Dadonov, Byron, Hoffman, Drouin) who better brace themselves for this possibility.
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 1, 2022 15:25:22 GMT -5
I know that Hughes has executed some big trades in nine months on the job, but I am not counting on anything right now. Even with Price headed to LTIR, the Habs just cannot take on more dollars and with cap space nearly unavailable around the league, it seems like a fantasy to imagine the magic trick of moving one of Montreal's anchor contracts. Camp should be very competitive because for me whichever veteran forward (or two) looks disinterested and a step slow is likely to be sent down to Laval. Management will not risk losing a younger player on a good value contract (Evans, Pitlick, or Pezzetta) to a waivers claim. So basically there are a handful of vets (Armia, Dadonov, Byron, Hoffman, Drouin) who better brace themselves for this possibility. And all those vets clearing waivers on their way to Laval may come to the realization they are grossly overpaid  |
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Post by folatre on Sept 1, 2022 21:35:32 GMT -5
Engels is reporting that one of the options Montreal has extended to Dach is 4 years with a $3.5 million AAV.
I am not as bullish on Dach as Montreal's management appears to be. I do not see the logic in inflating his salary coming off an underwhelming ELC when all they are buying are RFA years.
If they feel so strongly that he is diamond in the rough then give him the Carolina Kotkaniemi 'unwavering faith' contract (8 years/$4.8 per) because at least that way if they are vindicated they are buying a few UFA years that would have otherwise been very expensive.
Hockey is debatable but going "half way" seems the least logical of the three basic alternatives (short term bridge, medium term and no UFA years, long term commitment).
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Post by Cranky on Sept 1, 2022 23:56:28 GMT -5
Engels is reporting that one of the options Montreal has extended to Dach is 4 years with a $3.5 million AAV. I am not as bullish on Dach as Montreal's management appears to be. I do not see the logic in inflating his salary coming off an underwhelming ELC when all they are buying are RFA years. If they feel so strongly that he is diamond in the rough then give him the Carolina Kotkaniemi 'unwavering faith' contract (8 years/$4.8 per) because at least that way if they are vindicated they are buying a few UFA years that would have otherwise been very expensive. Hockey is debatable but going "half way" seems the least logical of the three basic alternatives (short term bridge, medium term and no UFA years, long term commitment). What exactly gas Dach done to warrant a mid 6 amount? 26 points are bottom 6 numbers. Why not sign for one year and he starts to prove himself then pay him better. I don't like his injury or the hardball. It may indeed hide a wrist problem that will cost Habs 14 million to find out. Did they really do their homework on this guy? |
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 2, 2022 1:42:15 GMT -5
Engels is reporting that one of the options Montreal has extended to Dach is 4 years with a $3.5 million AAV. I am not as bullish on Dach as Montreal's management appears to be. I do not see the logic in inflating his salary coming off an underwhelming ELC when all they are buying are RFA years. If they feel so strongly that he is diamond in the rough then give him the Carolina Kotkaniemi 'unwavering faith' contract (8 years/$4.8 per) because at least that way if they are vindicated they are buying a few UFA years that would have otherwise been very expensive. Hockey is debatable but going "half way" seems the least logical of the three basic alternatives (short term bridge, medium term and no UFA years, long term commitment). What exactly gas Dach done to warrant a mid 6 amount? 26 points are bottom 6 numbers. Why not sign for one year and he starts to prove himself then pay him better. I don't like his injury or the hardball. It may indeed hide a wrist problem that will cost Habs 14 million to find out. Did they really do their homework on this guy? I'm guessing they believe they've done their howework, and they've convinced themselves that Dach struggled the past few years due to his wrist, his wrist is now all better, and he's going to be a stud. My biggest fear is the Habs will continue to be jinxed by 3rd overall picks: Drouin, Galchy, KK. And now Dach. Maybe Dach can break the curse, but looks like Hughes is setting us up for some more 3rd degree pain  Wouldn't be as painful if they signed him for a year or two, and he's a bust. And if he is the stud: sign him big in a year or two. |
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Post by Cranky on Sept 2, 2022 5:16:34 GMT -5
What exactly gas Dach done to warrant a mid 6 amount? 26 points are bottom 6 numbers. Why not sign for one year and he starts to prove himself then pay him better. I don't like his injury or the hardball. It may indeed hide a wrist problem that will cost Habs 14 million to find out. Did they really do their homework on this guy? I'm guessing they believe they've done their howework, and they've convinced themselves that Dach struggled the past few years due to his wrist, his wrist is now all better, and he's going to be a stud. My biggest fear is the Habs will continue to be jinxed by 3rd overall picks: Drouin, Galchy, KK. And now Dach. Maybe Dach can break the curse, but looks like Hughes is setting us up for some more 3rd degree pain Wouldn't be as painful if they signed him for a year or two, and he's a bust. And if he is the stud: sign him big in a year or two. I don't buy anything any player says about injuries in a contract year. Too easy to swallow lots of pain killers to hide the pain. Only metrics are results on ice. Plus you can't hide an injury all year. It's going to show up in shooting. Highly suspicious... |
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Post by jkr on Sept 2, 2022 6:35:19 GMT -5
The injury excuse seems similar to Anderson. He was coming off a 26 game, 1 goal season when the Habs acquired him. The big difference was that Anderson had scored 27 goals in the season prior to the injury.
Dach has no such history & if he turning down a 4 year deal worth 14 million, then he is getting bad advice.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 2, 2022 8:39:39 GMT -5
The injury excuse seems similar to Anderson. He was coming off a 26 game, 1 goal season when the Habs acquired him. The big difference was that Anderson had scored 27 goals in the season prior to the injury. Dach has no such history & if he turning down a 4 year deal worth 14 million, then he is getting bad advice. He may be But if Dach is under the impression that the Habs drafted Slaf knowing they had an agreement in principle with Chicago … then he likely thinks the Habs value him more than most teams and the Habs need him on the ice more than he needs the Habs. But it sure doesn’t look good for a team that worked for 48 hours to get this player and based their draft pick somewhat on getting this player, that he STILL isn’t signed. One can only assume they had zero contract talks with him prior to getting him |
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Post by jkr on Sept 2, 2022 9:01:47 GMT -5
Agreed. 2 months after acquiring a guy that appeared to have little leverage & he still isn't signed. Doesn't bode well for the future IMO.
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Post by Willie Dog on Sept 2, 2022 11:42:37 GMT -5
Engels is reporting that one of the options Montreal has extended to Dach is 4 years with a $3.5 million AAV. I am not as bullish on Dach as Montreal's management appears to be. I do not see the logic in inflating his salary coming off an underwhelming ELC when all they are buying are RFA years. If they feel so strongly that he is diamond in the rough then give him the Carolina Kotkaniemi 'unwavering faith' contract (8 years/$4.8 per) because at least that way if they are vindicated they are buying a few UFA years that would have otherwise been very expensive. Hockey is debatable but going "half way" seems the least logical of the three basic alternatives (short term bridge, medium term and no UFA years, long term commitment). His ELC AAV with the Hawks was 3.4, with 2.5 in perf bonuses... I can guarantee, based on what he's done during that 3 years is he got $0 in terms of perf bonus. He must want guaranteed cash... |
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Post by Scotty D on Sept 2, 2022 12:53:17 GMT -5
I don't buy anything any player says about injuries in a contract year. Too easy to swallow lots of pain killers to hide the pain. Only metrics are results on ice. Plus you can't hide an injury all year. It's going to show up in shooting. Highly suspicious... I will absaolutely agree here. long term into UFA years and he actually proves the critics (who have more than enough evidence at their disposal to support their case) wrong is the only possible benefit to the club or a 2 year deal at less than the discussed 3.5 AAV to give him the time he needs to make everyone believe he's the real deal. that said if year one is horrible and contract year is amazing one could easily argue what his motivations are on the ice. one year deals every year after that bahahah. |
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Post by folatre on Sept 2, 2022 22:21:01 GMT -5
Willie, you are correct. According to Cap Friendly, Dach did not earn any of the performance bonuses from his ELC.
Dach is an intriguing talent/project at this point, but I do not really see the angle where Montreal acquiring him gives the kid any significant leverage. Montreal is planning to be a bad (perhaps awful) team this season, so why would Dach think he has some kind of "missing piece" type of leverage over the situation?
Anyway, I have no idea if Engels was provided this info by the player's agent or by the Habs' management. If I had to guess, I would believe anything rumored to be 4 years/$14 million would be an aspirational target for Dach and his agent. I simply fail to see how Montreal benefits from going four years with him at that number.
Honestly, the only way I give Dach more than a two-year contract is if he wants the same contract as the guy he was basically traded for (Romanov). Romanov looked every bit if not more promising than Dach over his ELC and he got 3 years/$2.5 AAV. That is the max I would go with Dach.
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Post by Cranky on Sept 3, 2022 6:02:10 GMT -5
Dach has enough red flags on him to be a traffic pylon.
Why did Chicago trade a young center, arguably the most important forward position.
If his wrist is healed, why did he only have 26 points.
Why the over the top ask?
Why is the ice white and not hot pink?
All of those questions are hanging on Dach like Christmas decoration on a one limb tree....
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Post by seventeen on Sept 3, 2022 12:56:44 GMT -5
Dach has enough red flags on him to be a traffic pylon. Why did Chicago trade a young center, arguably the most important forward position. the Hawks also traded a 24 year old, 41 goal scorer for picks. I'm not sure thinking they have their wits about them is the right conclusion. They seem to be (using the phrase I've heard often) "burning it all down". Baby with the bath water is what comes to mind for me. Now that doesn't mean Dach doesn't come with a lot of question marks, just that some organizations make poor decisions. We had that for 9 years. |
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Post by habsorbed on Sept 3, 2022 13:55:21 GMT -5
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Post by folatre on Sept 3, 2022 15:13:52 GMT -5
The DeBrincat trade was poor return considering he is a 40 goal scorer who cannot become a UFA until July 2024. The reality is 40 goal scorers help pick up points in the standings, even when surrounded by a weak roster. So Chicago perhaps moved him now (rather than the trade deadline when more teams could have joined the bidding) because the plan is to finish dead last.
Dach, on the other hand, is many years away from unrestricted free agency and frankly, based on what he showed on the ice during his ELC, would not have interfered with Chicago's plan to be the worst team in the NHL. So Dach getting traded is a stranger case and it inevitably raises questions, red flags, or whatever we want to call them.
Aside from embarrassment on the part of the guys who hatched the trade, Montreal is really under no pressure whatsoever to concede anything at the negotiating table with Dach's agent. Montreal is planning to be bad so if the kid wants to sit, whatever I guess because another top five pick is just what the Habs need. And why in the world would Dach want to miss out on getting his career back on track with a lot of ice time, to miss on accruing a season to count toward his eventual UFA milepost, and to miss out on a paycheque for the next 12 months?
Maybe Dach's agent is staying off internet for the summer and does not yet realize what Kakko, Zadina, and Romanov signed for.
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Post by NWTHabsFan on Sept 6, 2022 15:59:29 GMT -5
Maybe the Dach answer is just simple math. The Habs don’t appear to currently have enough off season cap space to sign him to anything more than even a Kakko like deal.
Teams can exceed the cap in the off-season by 10%. With the cap at $82.5M this season, that means they can be $8.25M over this off season. The Habs are currently at $6.13M over after the Monahan signing (and remember we like that deal because HuGo weaponized cap space for a first round pick). Doing the math, they have a hair over $2.1M to play with to sign Dach. Primeau is o/s as well, but his deal will most likely (or should be!) two way next season and his NHL salary should be below the threshold that it can be buried in the AHL right away.
So, I expect HuGo is looking to make another move before he finalizes and registers the Dach deal (no reason to believe it hasn’t already been negotiated and agreed to verbally by both parties). Maybe it is the highly speculated forward for a RHD trade that has been making the rounds on blogs and socials. Maybe it involves just moving a contract out. Remember two years ago, the little outrage because Berg acquired some plug D at the deadline and they did not have the cap space to bring up Caufield from Laval. As it stands now, with the number of wingers and cap crunch, the team does not have the flex to start Slafkovsky on opening night even if he tears up training camp. That is a PR nightmare that I am sure the club wants to avoid.
Anyway, while I rather the Dach deal is done already, it is not training camp yet and I don’t think he has earned any leverage on his ELC to hold the club over the cliff on this deal.
The key is that the team will want the full training camp to assess where Dach’s health and overall game is at, and to start to build chemistry with new teammates. Camp is only a few weeks away (after the rookie camp wraps up; the Red-White scrimmage is on the 25th). I don’t think we have long to wait on news.
Edit: In case folks were not aware, the Habs have $22.375M on off season LTIR with three players: Price, Monahan, Drouin. While that has an impact during the season on how much a team can go over the cap (hello Tampa!), the off season limit is still 10%.
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Post by seventeen on Sept 6, 2022 18:39:19 GMT -5
From what seems a couple of sources including Friedman a deal is agreed upon and it’s 4 years. One interesting aspect is that because Dach’s wrist injury did not occur in an NHL game, his service time is such that he does not become a UFA for 5 years so at the end of this contract he would still be an RFA. It would give the Habs a year to extend him, if warranted.
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Post by Cranky on Sept 6, 2022 19:03:31 GMT -5
Maybe the Dach answer is just simple math. The Habs don’t appear to currently have enough off season cap space to sign him to anything more than even a Kakko like deal. Teams can exceed the cap in the off-season by 10%. With the cap at $82.5M this season, that means they can be $8.25M over this off season. The Habs are currently at $6.13M over after the Monahan signing (and remember we like that deal because HuGo weaponized cap space for a first round pick). Doing the math, they have a hair over $2.1M to play with to sign Dach. Primeau is o/s as well, but his deal will most likely (or should be!) two way next season and his NHL salary should be below the threshold that it can be buried in the AHL right away. So, I expect HuGo is looking to make another move before he finalizes and registers the Dach deal (no reason to believe it hasn’t already been negotiated and agreed to verbally by both parties). Maybe it is the highly speculated forward for a RHD trade that has been making the rounds on blogs and socials. Maybe it involves just moving a contract out. Remember two years ago, the little outrage because Berg acquired some plug D at the deadline and they did not have the cap space to bring up Caufield from Laval. As it stands now, with the number of wingers and cap crunch, the team does not have the flex to start Slafkovsky on opening night even if he tears up training camp. That is a PR nightmare that I am sure the club wants to avoid. Anyway, while I rather the Dach deal is done already, it is not training camp yet and I don’t think he has earned any leverage on his ELC to hold the club over the cliff on this deal. The key is that the team will want the full training camp to assess where Dach’s health and overall game is at, and to start to build chemistry with new teammates. Camp is only a few weeks away (after the rookie camp wraps up; the Red-White scrimmage is on the 25th). I don’t think we have long to wait on news. Edit: In case folks were not aware, the Habs have $22.375M on off season LTIR with three players: Price, Monahan, Drouin. While that has an impact during the season on how much a team can go over the cap (hello Tampa!), the off season limit is still 10%. Your version of potential events lowers my blood pressure. I still prefer a one year "show me" then to find out we got a 30 point superstar that is going to be a 4 year boat anchor OR a legitimate kid that is going to break out into 50 point plus 2C. Maybe a 1C although Suzuki has something to say about that. The big picture is that this season can be a huge step in the right direction. If we land up bottom 5 pick AND we get Dubois, other then a huge work in progress on defense and goaltending, the front end can gel into the best we have in decades....maybe. Drop the damn puck already!!! |
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Post by folatre on Sept 6, 2022 22:46:05 GMT -5
NW, for sure, the points you make about the summer cap limit are valid.
However, I think it is important in terms of training camp to get deals done with Dach and Primeau long before opening night. He may not love it, but Primeau should take a two-way contract for 2022-23 and a one-way for 2023-24. Basically Jake Evans accepted this structure (2020-21 and 2021-22). And it is not like Primeau has to get stuck with the AHL min this season. Molson can afford to pay him $300,000 in Laval.
So with Primeau on a two-way deal, his contract becomes a non-issue. And the $2.1 million available should have Dach's name on it. I get it that management likes him and I get it that the player and his agent want to want to maximize his earnings during the RFA years. But it sure seems a lot simpler and somewhat less risky to just bridge Dach.
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Post by Tankdriver on Sept 7, 2022 8:26:21 GMT -5
Well Dach has signed for 13.45m for 4 years.
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Post by Skilly on Sept 7, 2022 8:42:21 GMT -5
So Dach gets $3.36 Million and we are $10.2 million over the cap.
For the NHL to allow the Habs to go over 10% should indicate that either Price is done, or LTIR (which players should not be on until the season starts) does not count. Or a trade is very imminent
Right now, it really isn’t the cap space that is forcing a trade (Well yes it is), but rather we have 16 forwards. Drouin and Monahan won’t be on LTIR for the whole season …
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